Tail docking

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Speaking personally, I feel like when these kinds of topics come up, rather than prompting a discussion about what is truly best for our dogs, a lot of the responses are along the lines of "you shouldn't challenge the wisdom of the breed standard / YTCA / AKC / established breeders." The responses often seem quite defensive and designed to STOP discussion and investigation. That really bothers me. I think such questions should be welcomed, frankly addressed, and then maybe it would be easier to put them to bed.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Hey, no getting snappy here. I didn't interpret your comments as snappy...should I? Yes, it is your opinion, which you are entitled to, just as I am entitled to disagree with. If I was that worried about people disagreeing with my opinion of things, well, then I would probably just keep them to myself and not post them online...

No, I don't mind you having an opposing view at all. Afterall, that's why were all in here right? You were just like "Ha ha ha...nice try. Snow...yeah...just look at it all." I just took that as a total bitchy comment. I made a mistake, but regardless, it was cold outside and that was my main point. I was actually originally against dressing your dogs up period. I thought it was dumb really... somehow I fell into the trap, not gonna lie. But what originally made me change my mind was when Jackson came up shivering from being out in the cold too long and I thought a jacket would be useful. Just like a lifejacket is useful to them in the pool. I just think a dog should have it's tail and not because I think it looks better (I think "nubs" are cute!) but because I think it's a useful way of communication for them among other reasons. I also am not saying by them not having their tail it's harming their way of life or anything because it's not.

[Kayceeh]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

This...is absolutely irrelevant to the comment that you were responding to. But that's OK, it served it's purpose of diverting attention away from my point well...just as I'm sure it was intended to do. No worries...it's kind of a difficult one to just "explain away", so ignoring it really is probably the best option.

In any event, your overall opinion on "most" breeders I can't exactly disagree with because as I stated, I don't agree with "most" breeders myself. But I can't relate when you extend the sterotype to include ALL breeders who don't even come close to falling into sterotype you seem to have drawn. There really is no way to reason with that line of thinking, no middle ground, and nothing to be learned, I'm afraid.

I'm sorry I wasn't aware that I had stated anywhere in my posts "All breeders" if you can point that out to me I'll gladly correct it.

This "point" that you seem to think I'm ignoring. Please, state your question, point etc and I'll gladly reply to it

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I think I would at least look into the claim. Maybe I would decide it was baseless and not worry about it, but as a breeder, does it not concern you that possibly the puppies experience a great deal more pain during docking than you realize?

What makes you think that I haven't looked into the claim? I have, and at this time, I am comfortable with where I stand, based on research and experience. If your concern is that I make decisions on this or any other aspect without carefully examining the situation first, I can assure you, that is not the case. (Although I understand your point and would strongly encourage anyone to make an informed decision, just as you have stated.)

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Okay, so the earlier quotes about yorkies having more c-sections and health problems because they are smaller, these are incorrect?

No, I don't think the statements about them being prone to difficulties are at all inaccurate. I just don't think that the majority of the time they are in relation to the overall size of the breed itself. I think there are other contributing factors that are to blame the majority of the time that could be avoided, thus reducing the risks of complications.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Kayceeh

If you keep 2 pups out of two litters a year then you're certainly a rare breed yourself Good on you but I seriously doubt many breeders do the same.

Most of the exhibitor/breeders that I know operate the way I do. We breed for ourselves, with no intention of fulfilling a pet market. Those that breed to sell puppies more than likely will make money. However, those that do it correctly, breeding the best representation of the breed, performing all the necessary tests, prior to breeding and putting all the money back into their dogs will never make money and will operate in the red. And then there is the cost of Championing those dogs we keep......traveling, grooming and entry fees can be very expensive.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Britster

No, I don't mind you having an opposing view at all. Afterall, that's why were all in here right? You were just like "Ha ha ha...nice try. Snow...yeah...just look at it all." I just took that as a total bitchy comment.

No, no, no...I totally did NOT mean it as a bitchy comment. Just dry humor. But I can totally see reading it now how it could be taken that way. My apologies for that. For the record, my hound goes out for long periods during the day when it's cold and I put a sweater on her. And I dress my dogs up every once in a while too. I do my fair share of "pointless" as well!

Out of the three on my couch beside me right now...one has a full tail, one has a nub, and one is docked perfectly where it should be...so we're on all ends of the spectrum here.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

No, I don't think the statements about them being prone to difficulties are at all inaccurate. I just don't think that the majority of the time they are in relation to the overall size of the breed itself. I think there are other contributing factors that are to blame the majority of the time that could be avoided, thus reducing the risks of complications.

I know with French Bulldogs (I think?) they typically ALWAYS have to have c-sections because the dogs have bigger heads and the mothers have narrow hips. So I don't think it's always size issues when it comes to breeding. I honestly don't know much to anything about breeding a Yorkie so I don't know what issues would come up because of size or anything.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

What makes you think that I haven't looked into the claim? I have, and at this time, I am comfortable with where I stand, based on research and experience. If your concern is that I make decisions on this or any other aspect without carefully examining the situation first, I can assure you, that is not the case. (Although I understand your point and would strongly encourage anyone to make an informed decision, just as you have stated.)

Just FYI, I meant didn't mean, you, BamaFan121, I meant "you" generally. But thank you for the answer.

[Kayceeh]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Most of the exhibitor/breeders that I know operate the way I do. We breed for ourselves, with no intention of fulfilling a pet market. Those that breed to sell puppies more than likely will make money. However, those that do it correctly, breeding the best representation of the breed, performing all the necessary tests, prior to breeding and putting all the money back into their dogs will never make money and will operate in the red. And then there is the cost of Championing those dogs we keep......traveling, grooming and entry fees can be very expensive.

As I said earlier I applaud you! I'm sure you are aware though, that looking at the bigger picture is necessary. If most were like yourself then we wouldn't have the problems with rescue centers being overrun, puppymills and pet shop sales still operating.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Just FYI, I meant didn't mean, you, BamaFan121, I meant "you" generally. But thank you for the answer.

Ah...I thought you meant me specifically. Sorry. (Alas, I am having 4 conversations at once and managed to get confudled!) Generally speaking, I agree with you on that one.





Is "confudled" a word?

[Britster]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

No, no, no...I totally did NOT mean it as a bitchy comment. Just dry humor. But I can totally see reading it now how it could be taken that way. My apologies for that. For the record, my hound goes out for long periods during the day when it's cold and I put a sweater on her. And I dress my dogs up every once in a while too. I do my fair share of "pointless" as well!

Out of the three on my couch beside me right now...one has a full tail, one has a nub, and one is docked perfectly where it should be...so we're on all ends of the spectrum here.

LOL, it's OK. It's hard to tell how people mean things over the internet because all we have are words and can't see how the person is saying it, ya know. So sometimes I probably take things too personal or type things the wrong way.

Like I said, I think the little nubs are adorable too. I dog-sit for Boxers and their whole butts shake when their happy & excited and it's definitely adorable so I'm not denying that.

I don't know, I suppose I just like the all-natural thing.

I have a legimate question if anyone can answer.... certain breeds, like the Australian Shepherd for example, are born without tails. Was this a process that just happened through generations of breeding?

The whole breeding of dogs things confuses me in general. But for example, if people bred for Yorkies with shorter and shorter tails, could they ONE day be naturally docked?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Britster

I know with French Bulldogs (I think?) they typically ALWAYS have to have c-sections because the dogs have bigger heads and the mothers have narrow hips.

You know, that is not the first time I have heard that about Bulldogs....

I know that with Bassets you often have to make them wear sweaters to keep their bellies from dragging the ground while they are preggers....does that count for anything?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Kayceeh

This "point" that you seem to think I'm ignoring. Please, state your question, point etc and I'll gladly reply to it

Regarding the comparison of why it's acceptable for an owner/vet to make assessments on pain and suffering in the case of having an animal put down, but the same principle doesn't apply to docking tails.

That was the "point" I was referring to, in case you truly are interested. However, like I said in my previous post, it is clear that our lines of logic are on opposite ends of the spectrum, and I doubt anything would be achieved from any further discussion on this matter...so don't feel obligated.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Britster

LOL, it's OK. It's hard to tell how people mean things over the internet because all we have are words and can't see how the person is saying it, ya know. So sometimes I probably take things too personal or type things the wrong way.

Like I said, I think the little nubs are adorable too. I dog-sit for Boxers and their whole butts shake when their happy & excited and it's definitely adorable so I'm not denying that.

I don't know, I suppose I just like the all-natural thing.

I have a legimate question if anyone can answer.... certain breeds, like the Australian Shepherd for example, are born without tails. Was this a process that just happened through generations of breeding?

The whole breeding of dogs things confuses me in general. But for example, if people bred for Yorkies with shorter and shorter tails, could they ONE day be naturally docked?

Well, if you mean "naturally shorter" then yes, but it can't be "naturally docked" because docking means cutting the tip. That's what good breeders do, they pick traits and breed for them. If docking is ever banned, I imagine breeders would take the tail more into account when breeding, I'm sure some yorkies have naturally longer tails than others, just as some have naturally larger ears. I have seen pictures of yorkies whos tails were longer than their bodies. I'm curious to know the average length of an undocked tail in relation to body length.

There could be problems breeding dogs with extremely short tails from what I've read, some of these dogs have a condition related to spinal bifida. So again you would want to proceed with caution and do studies and research before you decide to breed for this.

[topknot]

Yes, Mary is right. I read the statement about the money thing and I really do not believe this to be true for breeder exhibitors, since we are always in the hole and having to spend so much of our money on our dogs. We show to prove breed worthy. We want to make sure our dogs have what it takes to breed and we go further by having our dogs tested to further make sure. All this cost us a lot of money. Just to show a dog - it cost a min. of about 2,000 and that is if s/he finishes quickly. This does not include the grooming supplies, table, leads, etc... or RV cost to go to shows. Then you have the cost of our dog if we buy from outside - very expensive!! If you use a champion stud - very expensive we are talking way above 500.! Testing is very expensive. Then if you have a c-section - my last one was 809.01 just last week (the last pup was bent in half head touching feet and drawing to come down canal bent in half not going to make it - see photo. Her other 4 were born fine. She is just over 6 pounds). Believe me - we do not do this to make money. So it is not the show breeders that are making any money. Right now I have one going through lessons to be a therapy dog, 99.00 for classes and then we volunteer our time. So this is not for the money!