Tail docking

[Britster]

Originally Posted by friscomom

LOL! Are the 15 lb-ers more rugged and self-reliant, or do they whine like babies too?

Jackson is 12lbs and he's a lot more rugged. He's definitely a whiner too, though. If he's really bored and hasn't been exercised during the day, he will stare at me and begin whining because he wants to play a game of fetch or something, LOL. He's a total outdoor dog though. He loves being outdoors, he loves running as fast as he can (he kept up with an Italian Greygound once!) playing frisbee/ball, he loves going for walks, he's very agile. But I don't think that's necessarily a size issue... I've seen some smaller doggies who are like this as well. I personally love Jackson's size and wouldn't want any smaller than probably 8-9lbs. I think the little ones are super adorable and everytime I'm around one, it makes me want a smaller one (lol) but at the end of the day, I can't imagine.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by mommadog1

Does Jacksons tail curl over his back? Mindy's curls, as well as most yorkies with tails I have seen too.

BTW, how do you post pics in your post?

Hm, it does curl over his back a little bit, but not like a Pug or anything. I keep the hair on his tail a bit long-ish so it looks fluffier. It's basically always like in the picture above. Mindy (or whoever is in your avatar! lol) is adorable!!

But I saw a Yorkie with a full tail that was shaved short along with her body (at the dog park) and it actually looked really cute as well!

As for posting pics... when you click "go advanced" scroll down past all the post icons, and you should see a "manage attachments" button, then just upload from there!

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by mommadog1

Does Jacksons tail curl over his back? Mindy's curls, as well as most yorkies with tails I have seen too.

BTW, how do you post pics in your post?

never mind, I figured it out..lol

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by friscomom

LOL! Are the 15 lb-ers more rugged and self-reliant, or do they whine like babies too?

I used to think that the bigger they were the more "rugged" they where but that may not be true when I find out what is wrong with Callies shoulder/leg I will be able to tell you if I still believe that or not. If its a soft tissue injury like was first thought then no they aren't as rugged because then it was hurt by just jumping of the couch wrong but if its something else that wasn't caused by jumping then they could seem more rugged to me. But Callie is my baby and due to me spoiling her when she wants something she will cry and she has never been left a lone but shes not a barker or yapper. Sense we live with my grandparents her bigger size keeps my grandpa from tripping over her due to not seeing her and such.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Britster

Jackson's full tail has never been close to being stepped on. He carries it high pretty much all the time. You can't see it up close in this pic, but that's how it is all the time...

I wish we had a window like that because Callie would just love to lay in it all day lol she loves loves laying and looking out the window for hours.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Britster

Jackson is 12lbs and he's a lot more rugged. He's definitely a whiner too, though. If he's really bored and hasn't been exercised during the day, he will stare at me and begin whining because he wants to play a game of fetch or something, LOL. He's a total outdoor dog though. He loves being outdoors, he loves running as fast as he can (he kept up with an Italian Greygound once!) playing frisbee/ball, he loves going for walks, he's very agile. But I don't think that's necessarily a size issue... I've seen some smaller doggies who are like this as well. I personally love Jackson's size and wouldn't want any smaller than probably 8-9lbs. I think the little ones are super adorable and everytime I'm around one, it makes me want a smaller one (lol) but at the end of the day, I can't imagine.

When Callie's shoulder is better she said she wants to play with jackson lol she loves the outdoors and running fast too

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by mommadog1

Does Jacksons tail curl over his back? Mindy's curls, as well as most yorkies with tails I have seen too.

BTW, how do you post pics in your post?

Callies tail curls over her back but I donno if hers is a full tail or just done wrong because after getting Callie and learning about puppy mills and brokers it would seem I got her from a broker who got there puppys from a puppy mill.

[Kayceeh]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Did I miss these videos being posted you're mentioning in the 2nd paragraph, or do you mean these are videos you've seen along the way?

I guess now that this has turned into such a big discussion...I would like to see proof that it doesn't cause pain for the puppy.

Because if it does cause pain, then in my opinion a decision needs to be made - First) it needs to be determined if this is still indeed medically/hygienically/preventively needed and then Second) If the answer is yes, then anesthesia (local) *must* be used to manage this pain, in my opinion. We cannot perform a surgical procedure that clearly causes pain, without anesthetic, when anesthetic is readily available.

Is this a dumb question...even if it causes mild pain...why not just inject local lidocaine? I don't understand (esp. as a nurse)...I'm kind of confused there...

And I guess then Third) If it is determined to not be medically/hygienically/preventively needed, then I would hope this topic becomes a top priority, bc it would be a true priority, at that point, for the future of this breed, in my humble opinion.

I can speak from experience. I've had six litters over the years in England, it was then the done thing to have their tails docked. The puppies squeal I hated doing it and when I asked the vet "how much does it hurt them" he answered that it obvious by the squealing that it did hurt alot. I was soooo very pleased when it was banned in England. I did not have my last puppies tails docked even though it was still legal. I see no reason for it other than to look a certain way which is pretty shallow and unnecessary.

[friscomom]

Kayceeh, can you ask around your neck of the woods about incidents of accidental breakages to the tails, i.e. dog size, mishap?

[QuickSilver]

Coming back to the party....

First, I'd like to point out that the article Jim posted is directly contradicted by an article that livingdustmops posted earlier. To summarize, the proposition is that newborns of species with especially helpless young, like dogs and humans, don't feel as much pain as the adults, because their nervous systems are not fully developed. I'm not really up on this issue, so I can't say if this is definitely true or definitely false. Just wanted to point out there appears to be a debate on this issue.

Second: whelping for yorkies seems exceptionally dangerous, and if that could be made less dangerous by increasing the standard size, then I reeeeeeeally hope this is at least being considered. How could a breed club claim to support the welfare of the animal if things like this AREN'T considered??

Third: this is a good reminder to us all to do more than just talk. I'm sure many here are interested in helping more. The more it can be broken into dummy steps for those of us who are less educated in this area, the easier it is for us to start!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

When Callie's shoulder is better she said she wants to play with jackson lol she loves the outdoors and running fast too

I would LOVE to meet up with you & Callie in the summer! She is sooo cute and one of my fave Yorkies on here! I love the teapots. I bet Jackson and her would get along so well. I'll remember to PM you when it's finally spring time... we live so close!

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I wish we had a window like that because Callie would just love to lay in it all day lol she loves loves laying and looking out the window for hours.

Yep, Jackson does too. It's actually my dad's house but when we're over there, he's in it all the time!

[Kayceeh]

Originally Posted by friscomom

Kayceeh, can you ask around your neck of the woods about incidents of accidental breakages to the tails, i.e. dog size, mishap?

Sorry I don't live in England now I've been here in the USA for nearly nine years. I've owned two babies with full tails, one to thirteen years and the one I have now who is nearly sixteen. Mine have never had a problem with their tails

[MaddiesMommie]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Coming back to the party....

First, I'd like to point out that the article Jim posted is directly contradicted by an article that livingdustmops posted earlier. To summarize, the proposition is that newborns of species with especially helpless young, like dogs and humans, don't feel as much pain as the adults, because their nervous systems are not fully developed. I'm not really up on this issue, so I can't say if this is definitely true or definitely false. Just wanted to point out there appears to be a debate on this issue.

I have looked into this before for other reasons.
I can't remember all the details but do remember that our nervous system is not fully mature when we are born and continues to develop over the first 2-3 years of our lives.

Sorry I am not able to add more to this

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

So does that mean it's easier to place a dog with a full tail?

It means that it does not matter.

People I adopt to love dogs....and are looking for the one to fit into their lifestyle. If so much emphasis is placed upon the beauty of a dog, the person is probably someone I would not care to adopt to.

There is so much more to a dog than his ears, tail, color and tail. I have an assortment in my home and each one is special to me. I love them for their personalities.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Coming back to the party....

First, I'd like to point out that the article Jim posted is directly contradicted by an article that livingdustmops posted earlier. To summarize, the proposition is that newborns of species with especially helpless young, like dogs and humans, don't feel as much pain as the adults, because their nervous systems are not fully developed. I'm not really up on this issue, so I can't say if this is definitely true or definitely false. Just wanted to point out there appears to be a debate on this issue.

Second: whelping for yorkies seems exceptionally dangerous, and if that could be made less dangerous by increasing the standard size, then I reeeeeeeally hope this is at least being considered. How could a breed club claim to support the welfare of the animal if things like this AREN'T considered??

Third: this is a good reminder to us all to do more than just talk. I'm sure many here are interested in helping more. The more it can be broken into dummy steps for those of us who are less educated in this area, the easier it is for us to start!

Just to clarify, I didn't post the article as a rebuttal to what Cindy (livingdustmops) posted. It just seemed to me that the article was pertinent to the issue and was science based. People can make of it what they will, but we all know that hoofed mammals must show some independence the moment they hit the ground. Mammals such as canines felines, rodents, apes and humans have babies that are totally dependent for quite some time and definitely don't have the motor skills of field animals. My mind would tell me that the lack of motor skills shows an immature nervous system which would relate to the ability to sense pain, among other sensory functions.

As for your second point, I personally like the bigger ones but don't think that increasing the standard size would necessarily mean safer whelps. The standard is for up to seven pounds. If you changed the standard to read up to 12 pounds, for instance, you would still have people breeding the smaller ones. Also, bigger dogs can have problem whelps, too. So far (knock on wood), my girls have been free whelpers. I think it all has to do with physical condition as much as anything. They are very active and have good muscle tone. People do tend to pamper toy breeds and some may not have the strength, due to lack of activity, to free whelp.

I do wish the standard was more clearly written. There are terms like 'tail cut to medium length' and 'well sprung rib' and 'a balanced appearance' that can be mis-interpreted, especially by new breeders. They really do become less vague with experience, but newer breeders might find a more explicit standard helpful.

I know it won't happen, but I'd like to see a class set up for the larger Yorkies, too, as with the Poodle. I always see the smaller Poodles and it's real treat to see a Standard Poodle....they're so impressive. Imagine going to a dog show and seeing a ring full of 12 pound Yorkies on parade. With a bigger dog, there's more room for a longer coat....all that hair just flowing....truly would be a sight to see.