Tail docking

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by friscomom

2 questions:
If a breeder decides to leave tails undocked, and the pups don't sell, what happens to them?

Why can't the dockers be the ones who have to special order a docking? Why should all the animals have to be subjected to this if only one or two are expected to be put in the shows where (even though they don't have to) they are pressured to conform to tail docking convention, or one or two 'like it that way'? My guess is that professional yorkie people intent on winning these contests or recovering their investment really must wait to see the litter develop before they can make a good guess as to a winner. Is it for the sake of these few that all the animals are subjected, or is docking preference truly a majority?

I'd be curious to see a sampling of the general public, as to what percent know that yorkies, poodles, etc. and the rest, are born with tails which are cut or twisted off. When did you guys learn about these things?

I'll try and answer your question as an exhibitor/breeder. Might give you some understanding, maybe a bit more than you want to know. Breeder/exhibitors do not breed for anyone other than theirselves. We do not breed to fulfill a pet market. Exhibiting a dog is not to contest (go to the AKC.org website). We show to get approval of our breeding stock. Yes, there are maybe one or 2 yorkies in every six litters that will make it to the ring and worthy of breeding, after it's obtained it's Championship. We breed very minimally, maybe 1 or 2 litters a year. Then at other times we may have 3 in a litter that will make it to the ring. And determining whether a yorkie is going to make a Champion is not a guess. It takes a lot of studying canine genetics, learning lines/pedigrees and studing structure, movement, coat texture and color and health. Our dogs are health tested and we make sure our dogs are the best representation of the breed. We usually have a waiting list way before a breeding is conducted. The people on the waiting know that we breed for ourselves first, but they are prepared to wait longer until will assess a litter. This takes months as we watch these pups grow, monitoring every bit of their activities.

In answer to your question, what do we do with the puppies that don't sell, we keep them. But, that doesn't happen too often, since we have a waiting list and breed minimally.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by friscomom

2 questions:
If a breeder decides to leave tails undocked, and the pups don't sell, what happens to them?

I don't know what happens to them, but if the puppies end up in rescue, I can tell you that from what I've read, it's much easier to place a dog that is as close to standard as possible.

[friscomom]

Here's another good read
Letter to the AVMA re: Docking: Breed Information: Kerry Health: United States Kerry Blue Terrier Club

If yorkie tail cutting is a preventative measure that is known to avert a large number of commonplace breakages which otherwise inevitably result from either rathole work or falling off the couch then I fully retract whatever I said about it being mean.

But it still looks like less than ideal breeding, and interpret that a good tail enhances a dog's life. I'm sure Frisco could care less, he-who-has-more-pressing-problems.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I don't know what happens to them, but if the puppies end up in rescue, I can tell you that from what I've read, it's much easier to place a dog that is as close to standard as possible.

We have adopted many pups with full tails without any problem at all! Maybe there were people who did not want them with tails and they did not apply, but I can tell you there are people who love them.

One couple adopted a 15 pound yorkie with a full tail...they were actually from England and they found the tiny yorkies in this country depressing.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I don't know what happens to them, but if the puppies end up in rescue, I can tell you that from what I've read, it's much easier to place a dog that is as close to standard as possible.

I would say a reputable breeder would keep them or place them with a family member or friend. I know if I had a yorkie that couldn't be placed it would stay in my home until I found a suitable home or the baby would live the rest of it's life in my home. I have no problems with that

Donna

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

We have adopted many pups with full tails without any problem at all! Maybe there were people who did not want them with tails and they did not apply, but I can tell you there are people who love them.

One couple adopted a 15 pound yorkie with a full tail...they were actually from England and they found the tiny yorkies in this country depressing.

So does that mean it's easier to place a dog with a full tail?

[friscomom]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I'll try and answer your question as an exhibitor/breeder. Might give you some understanding, maybe a bit more than you want to know. Breeder/exhibitors do not breed for anyone other than theirselves. We do not breed to fulfill a pet market. [other excellent useful information snipped]

Thanks Mardelin, I guess I am cultured by BYB, puppy mills, and back alleys. That is exactly what I needed to know and I hugely appreciate your taking the time.

[carmen in nj]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I'll try and answer your question as an exhibitor/breeder. Might give you some understanding, maybe a bit more than you want to know. Breeder/exhibitors do not breed for anyone other than theirselves. We do not breed to fulfill a pet market. Exhibiting a dog is not to contest (go to the AKC.org website). We show to get approval of our breeding stock. Yes, there are maybe one or 2 yorkies in every six litters that will make it to the ring and worthy of breeding, after it's obtained it's Championship. We breed very minimally, maybe 1 or 2 litters a year. Then at other times we may have 3 in a litter that will make it to the ring. And determining whether a yorkie is going to make a Champion is not a guess. It takes a lot of studying canine genetics, learning lines/pedigrees and studing structure, movement, coat texture and color and health. Our dogs are health tested and we make sure our dogs are the best representation of the breed. We usually have a waiting list way before a breeding is conducted. The people on the waiting know that we breed for ourselves first, but they are prepared to wait longer until will assess a litter. This takes months as we watch these pups grow, monitoring every bit of their activities.

In answer to your question, what do we do with the puppies that don't sell, we keep them. But, that doesn't happen too often, since we have a waiting list and breed minimally.

Very well put Mary, thank you, for example I just had a litter of 5, I am keeping 2 a boy and a girl to see their potential for the ring, the other 3 are up for sale as pet only, if something happens that the two I am keeping do not make it to the ring, then I will have them spay and neuter and they will also be place in a pet only home. Why we dock, because is the Standard of the silky breed too and we will continue to do so until the standard is change. We did use anesthetic to dock this litter, but it was my choice and I don't think everyone has access to anesthetics I just happen to be grateful that my son is a vet tech working on his vet license and we have access to that. We also microchip and we use lidocane for that too, I HATE the size of the needle, so my son,gives then a little topical in the injection site, he says is more for MY peace of mind that for the puppies,
hope this helps you understand how and why some of us breed and do business.
Respectfully,
Carmen in nj

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I would say a reputable breeder would keep them or place them with a family member or friend. I know if I had a yorkie that couldn't be placed it would stay in my home until I found a suitable home or the baby would live the rest of it's life in my home. I have no problems with that

Donna

I totally agree with this!

[friscomom]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

One couple adopted a 15 pound yorkie with a full tail...they were actually from England and they found the tiny yorkies in this country depressing.

LOL! Are the 15 lb-ers more rugged and self-reliant, or do they whine like babies too?

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

The link that Jim posted says, " It is also recommended to dock the tails in breeds which have long thin, weak and sparsely coated tails, in order to avoid later sickness and damage."

I'm not sure the Biewer has the exact tail type as the Yorkie, they seem to be a little bigger boned, isn't it possible that when Mr. Biewer was breeding, he selectively chose those dogs with a certain tail structure, or length? Concerning Matese, don't their tails curl up and out of the way? I've seen pictures of yorkies, (not show dogs) whose tails were quite long and dragging behind them, just seems like it would be so easy to step on them.

The Biewer is a Yorkie and has the same kind of tail...I have been to many dog shows or in breeders homes that have Biewers and Yorkies..same tail. My sister has a Maltese and it is the same tail. Mr. Biewer selective breeding was based on show yorkie pedigree's...

LOWOOD FARM - Biewers

Debbie has done a fabulous job of showing where the Biewers came from and that the Parti/Biewer are the same dog. If you go to her parti site she has a ton of studbooks and early history on all of these dogs.

I might add the Biewers are getting smaller and smaller here in the states due to breeders breeding smaller dogs.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by carmen in nj

Very well put Mary, thank you, for example I just had a litter of 5, I am keeping 2 a boy and a girl to see their potential for the ring, the other 3 are up for sale as pet only, if something happens that the two I am keeping do not make it to the ring, then I will have them spay and neuter and they will also be place in a pet only home. Why we dock, because is the Standard of the silky breed too and we will continue to do so until the standard is change. We did use anesthetic to dock this litter, but it was my choice and I don't think everyone has access to anesthetics I just happen to be grateful that my son is a vet tech working on his vet license and we have access to that. We also microchip and we use lidocane for that too, I HATE the size of the needle, so my son,gives then a little topical in the injection site, he says is more for MY peace of mind that for the puppies,
hope this helps you understand how and why some of us breed and do business.
Respectfully,
Carmen in nj

I just looked at my post and so many grammatical errors....should have reviewed it first.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by lladyon

I have a yorkie, purchased from a highly reputable and internationally well known breeder.

This breeder recently has decided not to continue docking the tales and it was the first litter from which I have purchased my dog.

I have no problems with cleanliness, injury or anything else. I am very very happy I have a dog without a docked tale. My feeling is it is an archaic practise, the benefits of which are unfounded and is a cruelty to animals.

I always smile at how expressive my yorkie's tale is; it is also reminiscent of a wild flower and never looks the same, always changing shape and waving in the wind. I cannot imagine him without it. He easily displays his emotions with it and holds it proudly upright. The only time it was ever down, was when he was ill. The tail is not difficult to care for; it has never been a hazard, it has never been stepped on nor injured in any way.

I highly support progressive changes in animal welfare and feel docking of tales should only be done when absolutely necessary such as required in certain medical/health situations.
Thank you for posting the article.

lladyon

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

The link that Jim posted says, " It is also recommended to dock the tails in breeds which have long thin, weak and sparsely coated tails, in order to avoid later sickness and damage."

I'm not sure the Biewer has the exact tail type as the Yorkie, they seem to be a little bigger boned, isn't it possible that when Mr. Biewer was breeding, he selectively chose those dogs with a certain tail structure, or length? Concerning Matese, don't their tails curl up and out of the way? I've seen pictures of yorkies, (not show dogs) whose tails were quite long and dragging behind them, just seems like it would be so easy to step on them.

Jackson's full tail has never been close to being stepped on. He carries it high pretty much all the time. You can't see it up close in this pic, but that's how it is all the time...

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I don't know what happens to them, but if the puppies end up in rescue, I can tell you that from what I've read, it's much easier to place a dog that is as close to standard as possible.

Honestly, I don't think most people that go to rescues care about standard, lol. I don't mean that in a mean one but a lot of people go to the pound just to get a good ole' dog... I would estimate that over 75% of people who own dogs don't know anything/or very little about their dogs "standards" when it comes to most things. For example, out of every single person I know... nobody pays attention to that kind of stuff, or AKC, or anything of the sort. They know basics about their breed and that's it.

I also have to add that literally every single person that has met Jackson says "wow! I LOVE his tail! Why don't they leave tails on all Yorkies?" Now, I don't know if they're people just being nice or being truthful, but most seem VERY intrigued by his tail and say they wish their dog (if their dog has docked tail) had a tail.

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by Britster

Jackson's full tail has never been close to being stepped on. He carries it high pretty much all the time. You can't see it up close in this pic, but that's how it is all the time...

Does Jacksons tail curl over his back? Mindy's curls, as well as most yorkies with tails I have seen too.

BTW, how do you post pics in your post?