"Parti Yorkies" What's your opinion

[Breezeaway]

Oh forgot one more thing, If our standard looks like the Biewers then you must have copied yours from the Yorkshire Terrier Standard because that is where ours comes from.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Obie;2893910
[I

The parti is way beyond 5 generations.. and what does the standard of the parti have to do with the standard of the Biewer if they are, as you claim, two different breeds?[/I][/FONT]

It looks to have incorporated the standard of the Biewer, interesting?

]

I am still not sure what you are saying or where you are going with this.

Who is going to be knocking at your door for what?

Who forced whos hand on what matter and for what reason?

What do the parti standards have to do with the Biewer?

The parti standards are set to be the same as those for the yorkie, because they ARE yorkies.

You come on here making all sort of wild unsubstantiated accusations on some thing that you obviously know nothing about. Your thoughts go off in all directions one time saying one thing and the next contradicting what you said, expecting the rest of us to know what is going on in your head. Talking about the AKC being 'vanished", the word is banished.

If you have a parti that did not test as a purebred, that does not mean that all partis were ill bred. My breeder is well known by the AKC and keeps impecable records.

If you think that the AKC is going to go back and do genetic testing on all the partis you are clueless as to how these things work. That would open the door for making every dog that they have registered be genetic tested. And I have no idea how they would do that with those ancestors that have passed on.

There are, no doubt, many many dogs that are registered as purebreds that are not purebred, and no one knows and no one really cares unless they are show dogs or if a buyer questions the parentage.

Still confused as to why it matters to you what is going on with the partis.
is it because they are AKC and the Biewers are not?

We know that this is going to take a long time and may not happen in our lifetime, but one has to start somewhere and bullying the AKC is probably not the best way to go about it.

[Breezeaway]

Just wanted clear up how it reads about Nikkos Orange blossom and Streamglen Milady. Streamglen Milady was a daughter of Streamglen Shaun which made Blossom a granddaughter. the way I typed it above made it sound like milady was the granddaughter when she is actually the daughter.

[TammyJM]

Originally Posted by Obie

You don’t need to be insultive. I already told you I own a parti that was tested not to be. Please don’t call me a liar. I believe that goes against YorkieTalk rules. In the end, we will see where the parti truly comes from and not falsified papers. Oh, and I guess you have proof that Ernest Hemmingway had a pure bred Yorkshire Terrier. Come on.
I think you held this thread long enough with untruth. And, the truth needs to be told!

What in the world are you talking about?? "And, the truth needs to be told!"...seriously, have you started your "Hoilday cheer" a day early?

I guess I overlooked where you have said that you own a parti colored Yorkie. Since you have proof that your dog is mixed, it would be great for you to share this info and who you were scammed by when you purchased it. One really must do their research when buying a new puppy, regardless of breed or color.

You will NEVER the change the fact that a parti is 100% Yorkshire Terrier...are there people out there that will sell you a mix and lie to you and say that it is a purebred....well, I don't have to tell you this since you apparently fell for someone's lies when you bought your parti.

As for the standard...why do you keep asking this...maks NO sense. The parti is not a seperate breed, it's a color variation. Do you ask the owners of a silver and tan Yorkie what their standard is??

[yorkiegirl2]

Originally Posted by Obie

You don’t need to be insultive. I already told you I own a parti that was tested not to be. Please don’t call me a liar. I believe that goes against YorkieTalk rules. In the end, we will see where the parti truly comes from and not falsified papers. Oh, and I guess you have proof that Ernest Hemmingway had a pure bred Yorkshire Terrier. Come on.
I think you held this thread long enough with untruth. And, the truth needs to be told!

Dr. Hemingway passed on to Ernest not only his skills of animal doctoring, but his knowledge and love of nature. "Ernest was fond of all animals including wild ones," his mother Grace once said. "He is a natural scientist, loving everything in the ways of bugs, shells, birds, animals, insects, and blossoms." By the age of three, Ernest surprised his parents by correctly identifying seventy-three birds in his father’s Birds of Nature volume.

Ernest’s grandfather, Ernest (Abba) Hall, whom Ernest loved and was proud to have been named after, also had a fondness for animals. After Hall’s wife, Caroline Hancock, died of cancer, Hall found comfort with his beloved small white Yorkshire terrier, Tassel, whom Ernest adored. This was a family trait Ernest would inherit. He often sought comfort and love from his cats and dogs during some of the loneliest and most stressful times of his life.

Grandfather Hall’s kindness to animals was legendary and left a lasting impression on Ernest. According to Ernest’s sister, Marcelline, Hall once witnessed a junkman beating his old horse. After some lengthy negotiations, Hall purchased the horse and put it out to pasture, where it grazed and lived until its death. Ernest would also be known for rescuing mistreated and unwanted animals and adopting stray cats and dogs throughout his life. According to Dr. Marty Becker in his book The Healing Power of Pets: "Children’s interest in pets is the one strong element of childhood that survives as they mature. . . ."

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

What in the world are you talking about?? "And, the truth needs to be told!"...seriously, have you started your "Hoilday cheer" a day early?

:

[Obie]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

First off I did not call you a liar. Second if you bought a Parti and it tested not a Parti then you didnt buy from a reputable breeder, must have forgot to do your homework.
As for the parti not tracing back to Friedheck, why would they? Darling and Fru were both grandkids of Streamglen richard, a grandson of Streamglen shaun and
Nikkos Orange blossom was out of Streamglen Milady, a granddaughter of Streamglen Shaun.

Schnee was born in 1984, the first so called Biewer. Why did Joan Gorden and Janet Bennett publish in a book in 1979 that says " "It is not unusual to find small white marks on one or more toes or a fine white line in the lower forejaw. These will not be visible as an adult. A large amount of white marks on the chest , paws, jaws, or skull, places a yorkie into a tri-color classification and it is very wise to guard against this possibility. Yorkshire terrier puppies can be born of colors that automatically deprive them of the necessary qualities to become the proper colors of the breed. They can be born all black: all tan: tan with black points; tri-color:black, white,and tan; all blue;bluish grey with tan points; and so remain or change to another shade of their newly born colors. These mismarked Yorkie puppies are not the result of the mis-alliances or throwbacks but are rather the net product of incorrectly inherited genes which have failed to activate the pigment glandular system to providing what they require to be in accord with the yorkshire terrier standard. Puppies incorrectly colored or marked should not be sold as rare, They should not be registered as Yorkshire terriers, but should simply be found a loving home If one cannot bring oneself to having them put down."

Now I would think a book that was written and talked about the tri colored yorkie being born long before one was even born in germany would take precedence...
We too have turned all the pedigrees and records over to AKC to prove that our dogs are Parti yorkshire terriers ,
And last If you plan on trying to solicit AKC to genetically test the parti yorki’s , Goodluck, they would have to test all Yorkshire terriers. And I'm sure AKC wouldn't appreciate the way you talk about them.

I am not worried about what AKC thinks. They only register dogs. They already know what we think.

Joan Gordens books states the following:


"It is not unusual to find small white marks on one or more toes or a fine white line in the lower forejaw. These will not be visible as an adult. A large amount of white marks on the chest , paws, jaws, or skull, places a yorkie into a tri-color classification and it is very wise to guard against this possibility. Yorkshire terrier puppies can be born of colors that automatically deprive them of the necessary qualities to become the proper colors of the breed. They can be born all black: all tan: tan with black points; tri-color:black, white,and tan; all blue;bluish grey with tan points; and so remain or change to another shade of their newly born colors. These mismarked Yorkie puppies are not the result of the mis-alliances or throwbacks but are rather the net product of incorrectly inherited genes which have failed to activate the pigment glandular system to providing what they require to be in accord with the yorkshire terrier standard. Puppies incorrectly colored or marked should not be sold as rare, They should not be registered as Yorkshire terriers, but should simply be found a loving home If one cannot bring oneself to having them put down."

Talking about the large amounts of white, no where does she indicate that the legs and belly are all white. Do you get it?

If you are going to put stock into what a person says, then you have to put stock into everything they say and not just what you want. She clearly said do not register these puppies as Yorkshire Terriers.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Obie

I am not worried about what AKC thinks. They only register dogs. They already know what we think.

Joan Gordens books states the following:

[F FB] [/FONT]
[F FB]"It is not unusual to find small white marks on one or more toes or a fine white line in the lower forejaw. These will not be visible as an adult. [F FB]A large amount of white marks on the chest , paws, jaws, or skull,[/FONT] places a yorkie into a tri-color classification and it is very wise to guard against this possibility. Yorkshire terrier puppies can be born of colors that automatically deprive them of the necessary qualities to become the proper colors of the breed. They can be born all black: all tan: tan with black points; tri-color:black, white,and tan; all blue;bluish grey with tan points; and so remain or change to another shade of their newly born colors. These mismarked Yorkie puppies are not the result of the mis-alliances or throwbacks but are rather the net product of incorrectly inherited genes which have failed to activate the pigment glandular system to providing what they require to be in accord with the yorkshire terrier standard. [F FB]Puppies incorrectly colored or marked should not be sold as rare, They should not be registered as Yorkshire terriers,[/FONT] but should simply be found a loving home If one cannot bring oneself to having them put down."[/FONT][F FB][/FONT]
[F FB] [/FONT]
[F FB]Talking about the large amounts of white, no where does she indicate that the legs and belly are all white. Do you get it?[/FONT]
[F FB] [/FONT]
[F FB]If you are going to put stock into what a person says, then you have to put stock into everything they say and not just what you want. She clearly said do not register these puppies as Yorkshire Terriers.[/FONT][F FB][/FONT]

This is a breed registry, not a coat color registry ... if a parti pup is born from two traditional colored registered yorkshire terriers, that pup has every right to be registered as a yorkshire terrier. Just because that pup has white on it's legs and chest, doesn't change the fact that it is a Yorkshire terrier.

As you noted above, "she clearly said do not register these puppies as a yorkshire terrier" ... no she said give them away or put them down.

That book was written 30 years ago, and is outdated in some of it's views - especially concerning genetics and recessive genes.

I mean no disrespect to the Gordon sisters but I personally would rather base my views on a more current understanding of genetics and more open way of thinking. If we held onto the old ways of thinking, our world would still be flat!

Does the book indicate how many parti colored pups were born in the Wildweir kennel? And I wonder if they had Streamglen Shaun in their pedigrees?

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Obie

I am not worried about what AKC thinks. They only register dogs. They already know what we think.

Joan Gordens books states the following:


"It is not unusual to find small white marks on one or more toes or a fine white line in the lower forejaw. These will not be visible as an adult. A large amount of white marks on the chest , paws, jaws, or skull, places a yorkie into a tri-color classification and it is very wise to guard against this possibility. Yorkshire terrier puppies can be born of colors that automatically deprive them of the necessary qualities to become the proper colors of the breed. They can be born all black: all tan: tan with black points; tri-color:black, white,and tan; all blue;bluish grey with tan points; and so remain or change to another shade of their newly born colors. These mismarked Yorkie puppies are not the result of the mis-alliances or throwbacks but are rather the net product of incorrectly inherited genes which have failed to activate the pigment glandular system to providing what they require to be in accord with the yorkshire terrier standard. Puppies incorrectly colored or marked should not be sold as rare, They should not be registered as Yorkshire terriers, but should simply be found a loving home If one cannot bring oneself to having them put down."

Talking about the large amounts of white, no where does she indicate that the legs and belly are all white. Do you get it?

If you are going to put stock into what a person says, then you have to put stock into everything they say and not just what you want. She clearly said do not register these puppies as Yorkshire Terriers.

What part of Tri-color, black white and tan do you not understand? Your grasping here . Sorry to say but your black white and tan biewers or nothing but a yorkshire terrier no matter how hard you try to argue the matter. You cannot get a new breed from 2 yorkshire terriers unless you have bred a different breed into the line. Mr Biewer stated his were from 2 Yorkshire terriers Darling and Fru and because he couldnt get them accepted he made up his own breed for them."""Mar 1988 - Mr. Werner Biewer first introduced his tri-colored dogs to the show ring in March 1988, at Wiesbaden, Germany. At this time he presented 2 dogs and called them black and white Yorkies. The VDH denied the acceptance of the dogs as being a breed of their own. They instead designated them as being of “wrong color, not for breeding.” Mr. Biewer was unhappy with this decision and began his search for a registry that would accept his beloved black and white Yorkies as a separate breed

What you have is the same thing as a parti Yorkshire Terrier

If AKC is a just a registry why are you trying so hard to get in." posted on your website is this"
Our long-term goal is to take the proper steps to gain AKC recognition, so that we can exhibit as our own unique breed at AKC shows under the standard that best fits our exquisite Biewer Terrier."""
What your upset about is that as long as there is a Parti Yorkshire terrier AKC will never accept you because they already have one.
You keep bringing up AKC so you must be worried about what they think after all your trying so hard to get your biewers registered with AKC..
You keep twisting what you say, You want in AKC, you dont care about AKC, AKC will be vanished for their mismanagement of record keeping. Akc is bad, Akc is good, Which is ???? Do you even know?

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Obie

If you are going to put stock into what a person says, then you have to put stock into everything they say and not just what you want. She clearly said do not register these puppies as Yorkshire Terriers.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

Isnt that what the VDH was saying to Mr biewer, same thing, Just worded different." "The VDH denied the acceptance of the dogs as being a breed of their own. They instead designated them as being of “wrong color, not for breeding.”

[Breezeaway]

Sue it is my understanding that the Parti in Wildweir came about because Gloria Lipman (Nikko)who was best friends w/ Wildweir (Gordon/Bennett) Let Nikkos Rolls Royce Ashley spend 2 years at Wildweir in OK as a stud.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Obie

I am not worried about what AKC thinks. They only register dogs. They already know what we think.

Joan Gordens books states the following:


"It is not unusual to find small white marks on one or more toes or a fine white line in the lower forejaw. These will not be visible as an adult. A large amount of white marks on the chest , paws, jaws, or skull, places a yorkie into a tri-color classification and it is very wise to guard against this possibility. Yorkshire terrier puppies can be born of colors that automatically deprive them of the necessary qualities to become the proper colors of the breed. They can be born all black: all tan: tan with black points; tri-color:black, white,and tan; all blue;bluish grey with tan points; and so remain or change to another shade of their newly born colors. These mismarked Yorkie puppies are not the result of the mis-alliances or throwbacks but are rather the net product of incorrectly inherited genes which have failed to activate the pigment glandular system to providing what they require to be in accord with the yorkshire terrier standard. Puppies incorrectly colored or marked should not be sold as rare, They should not be registered as Yorkshire terriers, but should simply be found a loving home If one cannot bring oneself to having them put down."

Talking about the large amounts of white, no where does she indicate that the legs and belly are all white. Do you get it?

If you are going to put stock into what a person says, then you have to put stock into everything they say and not just what you want. She clearly said do not register these puppies as Yorkshire Terriers.

One issue is fact and the other issue is opinion. Fact there were tri colored yorkies. Opinion, they should not be registered.

Well if you want to get them registered through the AKC, it would be wise to "care what they think". it is their game if you want to play then you need to play nice. You are not going to bully them and they are not going to go away. Do you think you are the first group that has had a difference with them?

It is good that they are strict other wise they would be like so many of the other registries and register anything on 4 legs.

Your best bet was with the YTCA. But it is too late for that now because you have already declared that you Biewers are not Yorkies.

And they AKC is going to want to see breeding records where it proves that other breeds were mixed in to produce the Biewer, and not just some test results.

If the creator of the Biewer did not keep records of any mixing than it was clearly NOT his intention to develope a separrate breed, but rather a different color

Personally I think you shot yourseves in the foot by going this route.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Sue it is my understanding that the Parti in Wildweir came about because Gloria Lipman (Nikko)who was best friends w/ Wildweir (Gordon/Bennett) Let Nikkos Rolls Royce Ashley spend 2 years at Wildweir in OK as a stud.

Nikkos Roll's Royce Ashley was born in 1982, Joan Gordon's book was written in 1979, where she's noted that parti has appeared in traditional litters.

I have 2 separate written accounts from either people who were directly involved in the Parti investigation or written by a friend of an investigator, that say Wildweir (one of the oldtime breeders questioned during the investigation) was asked about the possiblilty of parti being born in litters of traditional yorkies, and Wildweir said that they had parti pups born in their own litters.

What I don't know is if that was prior to Wildweir using Nikko's Rolls Royce Ashley as stud in the mid-to late 1980's or after they used him as a stud ... but if he was the one who produced parti in their Wildweir litters, where did the dam of the litters get their parti gene from?

There are parti colors showing up out of lines that are unrelated to Wildweir and Nikkos. I've seen traditional lines who have produced white markings consistantly and when they have been bred to another traditional yorkie who's consistantly produced white markings on pups, they produced parti color when bred together.

Just lots of things to think about but I don't know if we'll ever get the answers to :-)

[Obie]

You guys are the ones that referred to Joan Gordon, so either you take what she says or you don't. She never mentions complete white legs or bellies because they never happened, so where is it coming from? Just because Wildweir lines are in the dogs, doesn't mean they carried any sp genes.

You can put up all the pedigrees up you want and it doesn't mean that another breed didn't get mixed in at one time. Do you know how many AKC pedigrees are pulled because of incorrect parentage? You have also put United Kingdom behind an AKC number on your pedigree. Provide the United Kingdom registration No# or for all we know the dog may have come from Mexico.

Read up on genetics, specifically color. Also don't use data to back up your argument that you don't practice either. It really makes a person look a little silly.

[yorkiegirl2]

Originally Posted by Obie

You guys are the ones that referred to Joan Gordon, so either you take what she says or you don't. She never mentions complete white legs or bellies because they never happened, so where is it coming from? Just because Wildweir lines are in the dogs, doesn't mean they carried any sp genes.

You can put up all the pedigrees up you want and it doesn't mean that another breed didn't get mixed in at one time. Do you know how many AKC pedigrees are pulled because of incorrect parentage? You have also put United Kingdom behind an AKC number on your pedigree. Provide the United Kingdom registration No# or for all we know the dog may have come from Mexico.

Read up on genetics, specifically color. Also don't use data to back up your argument that you don't practice either. It really makes a person look a little silly.

How about backing up some of your own data.
You stated in an earlier post.

The BTCA is not fighting you, you are resisting us.


Please tell us how we are resisting you.?

The Parti’s are already AKC recognized and registered. Your Briewer’s are Not.


We, the BTCA, as the breed club will prove once and for all the Biewer Terrier to be a separate breed. I don’t care if this takes 10 years for AKC to finally say, oh yes, we will bring you into our FSS program. By then, AKC will be vanished for their mismanagement of record keeping.

Who are you talking about here, your breed or are you saying you want to drag the Parti’s in to the FSS ??
If you talking about your Briewers I don’t see how this will work since your breed is a variation of the Parti‘s. With a recognized history of coming from 2 standard yorkies, from the same Kennel, with the same common ancestor. (Streamglen Shaun)
Now, what happen to your breed after it went to Germany, we don’t know
what else was might have been bred into it.
I have yet to see one of the Briewer breeders state what other dogs show up with the mars test. Are the old foundation breeds showing up that started the Yorkshire Terrier breed ??
And if another breed did show up, what to say that it was also not one of the original foundation breeds. Since we all know accurate records were not kept back in the old days.

The AKC only considers adding new breeds to the FSS® or its registry upon request. The breed must be recognized by an acceptable foreign or domestic registry.

The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards.

I think this is the problem for the Briewer breeder since the Briewer’s are a variation of the Parti’s.
And to become a new breed you much have at lease 3 different breeds
that make up the dog.

So, tell us what other breeds are in the Briewers that you are trying to get them recognized as a qualifying separate breed ?????