Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2856484)

How much have you studied the Crownridge Parti's. She was one of the breeders who proved to the AKC these dogs were Yorkies. Her dogs all look alike as she has put her mark on her dogs.

Mr. Biewer believed they were Yorkies and in fact tried to show them as Yorkies but he was not allowed to so he went to another registry so he could go into the showring. We also will never really know what Mr. Biewer wanted as after he passed his wife got rid of all the dogs and his notes. He also sold these dogs to other breeders with very few restrictions and it does not appear that he really protected this breed. One club is now pulling Mrs. Biewer out as an expert when you can't find any pictures of her showing the dogs. You can see pictures of her holding them in staged pictures but that does not mean she is an expert and why did she get rid of the dogs after he died if she was so involved. How many breeders here that are married, is the other spouse involved?

It also has been noted in some of the other breeds that accept the Piebald that this gene makes the dogs a little more mellow.

I do agree we won't know for a long time the genetic makeup of these dogs but we won't for the Yorkies either.

Originally Posted by 3FurryFaces (Post 2856613)

Thank you for the link. I did go to the BBCA website, which does clarify quite a bit. And as I questioned, they are doing DNA recording to establish a history going forward.
As for requiring DNA, I believe I said they, meaning the AKC and some other registries, encourage it . I did not say require.
Just my opinion, but I believe it will only help to provide legitimacy, going forward, for all our dogs of all breeds.

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2856622)

HaHa..sorry but been battling the Biewer battle for over 5 years.:)

Originally Posted by 3FurryFaces (Post 2856560)

Do all of the registries that recognize the Biewers have the same standard and classification?

What are BBCA? BBIA?

As for DNA, I am aware that its use is limited since our existing breeds predate DNA, however, to provide scientific data about the lineage and heritage of our dogs, aren't most registries, clubs, etc encouraging DNA documenting to add a degree of validity and accountability to our pedigrees? Not just Yorkies...

Originally Posted by dianaww (Post 2856644)

Oh I see, Honestly I love them and would have one tomorrow. I was merely making an innocent comment, that they seem more expensive than the standard Yorkie.

That said if my husband was willing to let me have another dog, I would get a biewer as I think they are beautiful.

I really hadn't realised this subject can stir up the emotions it does, why are people sensitive about it?

I guess I am nieve as we all have different views and feelings about many things in life, (not just dogs)

I just wanted to learn more about the diffences. Sorry if I offended you.

Originally Posted by 3FurryFaces (Post 2856509)

Understandably, since we do not have a definitive genetic code for breeds or dogs yet, it will be a while to get a scientific answer - however, is there documentation somewhere for the lineage of the Biewers either written or DNA?
Just my opinion, but it seems to me that if there is such controversy, the parent clubs would want to establish historical DNA records to prevent future confusion and disagreement.
Is there any kind of documentation that original Yorkies that gave birth to the original piebald/Biewer pups were able to recreate the breeding? Or is the piebald a mutation and not a recessive trait?

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2856637)

I have not studied Crownridge Partis, nor did I mean to imply they are not Yorkies, I have no idea what caused the effect, but I believe in breeding to standard, whatever standard you are following. I'm not even sure how AKC determines a new breed, scientists estimate that virtually all domesticated breeds are 99.9% similar on the DNA level. I do agree with you on the matter that Mrs. Biewer didn't seemed that involved with her husbands work/hobby. I was just offering my opinion that the Parti and the Biewer seem like different dogs, and I don't think they should be breed together, I believe this is a shortcut some breeders are taking.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2856451)

Another thing, many people have noted is that the personalities of the Biewers seem much different than the traditional yorkie, and many people say that the Biewer is a much mellower type of dog.

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2856649)

No...it is mass confusion out there because of the rush to get to AKC by some. sorry to say so you have different standards etc and different beliefs. In order to understand all of it you have to know which club someone belongs to and what they believe in. Just because someone says something does not mean it is the final facts. The club I belong to believes in breeding back to Yorkies so the gene pool stays strong and does not kill off this breed/variation. Deb belongs to a club that only believes in breeding Biewer to Biewer. At this stage of the game I don't think anyone really knows what is going to happen but we do try to respect the two different clubs opinions.

My club is BAPPC.

Neither of the two clubs believe the BTCA and that it is a brand new breed made up of 3 different breeds.

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2856300)

I will try to answer your questions.

I believe they are the same dog.

A couple of litters were born in a kennel in England ... some of the puppies went to Germany via the Biewers and some went to the United States. Mr. Biewer bred his Yorkies who both carried the piebald gene and produced a litter of white/blue/tan dogs. He was so impressed with the look of this litter that he started inbreeding to continue this line of dogs and to put the "look" on his dogs (which we know is the standard). The dogs that went to the US were bred and was shocking to the breeders and sold the dogs as pets or never acknowledged what happened. I have shorten the story but hopefully you understand what I believed happened.

No one was doing DNA over 25 years ago and in fact AKC just started in 1999 (I believe) so every Yorkie born you just have to trust the breeders told the truth....It does not help with the start of the breed be it...Yorkie, Biewer or Parti.

AKC does not set the standard...it is the parent club and in this case YTCA and they will not acknowledge these dogs for the show ring...this is why Parti's can be registered but not enter the showring.

I find it interesting that close to 20 AKC breeds have a piebald gene that is accepted but YTCA implies that a maltese got in this breed and caused all of these dogs to throw the different color of the Biewers..oh, and it happened 50 some years ago. Doesn't make sense to me.

Originally Posted by 3FurryFaces (Post 2856381)

Ok, I understand and I know YTCA sets standard for traditional yorkies, but if Biewer want to establish a standard, can't they apply to AKC or other Registries after they set up a club and establish a history and standards for the breed?

Also, a question for some of the long time breeders out there: in all the litters you have had, have you ever come across yorkies with a predominance of white in them like the partis and Biewers today?

I have met some breeders who have been breeding 30+ years and they have not had pups in litters with more than white on chests, some on underside of the abdomen.

Originally Posted by 3FurryFaces (Post 2856694)

It seems that the gene that causes the white in the coat is likely the same for both, but the Biewer breeders have more closely line bred to "control" the patterning to conform to a "standard". Additionally, breeders have taken the dogs in two different directions for a variety of reasons - to gain acceptance in one club or another or the belief that their breeding methods are in the best interest of their goals. Have I got it summed up?:confused:

Originally Posted by Breny (Post 2856675)

LoL...My biewers are just as high strung as my Yorkies and bark MORE than my Yorkies...LOL

when ppl ask me if they are different I just tell them they all have different personalities, whether it be Yorkie or Biewer. Every Yorkie I have met is not the same as the next, so its hard for me to say they are ALL a certain way.

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2856708)

I think what is hampering the Biewers from being accepted by the AKC is that they were registered as a separated breed in Germany.

The reason that the partis are AKC, is bc the AKC was able to compare the DNA of the original partis to their traditional colored champion YTs Nikkos Rolls Royce Ashley.

I personally would not buy a parti that could not be traced back to him. BC there are many knock offs out there, that are being sold as purebred partis.