question and registration..

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by C C Kent

Not trying to offend anyone who has an APRI puppy, the average pet buyer does not know the difference and doesn't think to ask until they own a puppy.

AKC limited registration allows the puppy to participate in AKC sanctioned events with the exception of Conformation events. Conformation events are designed to choose the best breeding stock and limited registration means no breeding. AKC full registration allows the puppy to participate in any AKC sanctioned event including conformation, and to register puppies when bred to another AKC full reg. dog.

APRI does not offer limited registration. It is specifically designed to serve the commercial pet breeding industry. The purpose was to deal with the limitations put in place by AKC. It allows people to purchase top breeding stock with limited registration (no breeding rights) and break the agreement by registering with an alternative registry. Many in the public are clueless to the purpose and practice of APRI so they buy the puppy and support the practice. To say that the registries are equal is to excuse the outright theft of breeding rights in many cases. Most simply don't know what they are supporting in buying and registering with APRI.

Those who have the best bloodlines are very particular about who they share the blood with. If they let an intact dog out of their program and into the wrong hands it could wind up in a commercial breeding program. For this reason many are now spay/neutering at a very young age because people don't keep their word.

It's about trying to keep the dogs you breed out of commercial breeding programs... not selfish, responsible.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

APRI is just another registration. AKC is the most recognized and strictest in regards to enforcing their policies. But that does NOT mean your dog is inferior to any other, be it AKC champion or mutt! Just because a dog is AKC reg doesn't automatically mean it is of a better quality or had a better breeder or even that it's full blooded Yorkie! Please don't let other people's clouded opinions get you down.

Because AKC is stricter and has a DNA profile set up the chances that your AKC registered pup is pure bred are alot better than that of any other registry. The chances that the breeder is conducting themselves in an ethical way are also higher as AKC will do an inspection of your facility and your records where other registries won't bother. The AKC system is far from perfect but it is the best that we have at present for protecting dog owners and the dogs.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Because AKC is stricter and has a DNA profile set up the chances that your AKC registered pup is pure bred are alot better than that of any other registry. The chances that the breeder is conducting themselves in an ethical way are also higher as AKC will do an inspection of your facility and your records where other registries won't bother. The AKC system is far from perfect but it is the best that we have at present for protecting dog owners and the dogs.

Yes, thus why I said they were the most respected and the most strict with enforcing it's policies. The way a breeder conducts themselves is not regulated by the registration, it comes down to the individual themselves. AKC can only enforce so much and still so much is out of their hands and comes down to the honesty and integrity of the breeder. AKC is not immune to dishonest breeders or puppy millers, nor does it mean that the information regarding dogs that is provided is truthful. I think sometimes it comes accross to many people that the only thing they have to worry about is if the dog is AKC registered and if it is, then they are worry free. Not the case at all! And I certainly don't think of anyone's pet as a 'lesser' dog because of the registry or lack there of they are affiliated with.

[BamaFan121s]

Also, just to add one more thing. DNA profiling is not required of every single case of an AKC produced litter, so to make that claim and not consider that parentage of a litter can be easily falsified and never proven otherwise unless challenged IMO, gives a false sense of comfort.

Don't get me wrong, I do think AKC is by far the best registry in comparison to others, but they are not flaw free. I think sometimes AKC registration overshadows the importance of examining the actual breeder when making a decision.

[Ladyhawk]

At least with AKC you have big brother watching. Breeders can not only be fined and suspended but AKC will publish that these actions have been taken and why. That means your fellow breeders will know if you are trying to pull something or not taking care of your animals. They try to put the pressure on to keep people honest. It's kinda like driving. Having cops around to enforce the speed limit will not insure safety on the road but it does improve your chances.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

At least with AKC you have big brother watching. Breeders can not only be fined and suspended but AKC will publish that these actions have been taken and why. That means your fellow breeders will know if you are trying to pull something or not taking care of your animals. They try to put the pressure on to keep people honest. It's kinda like driving. Having cops around to enforce the speed limit will not insure safety on the road but it does improve your chances.

True, and I think it's great that they do enforce these issues and are stringent with them. Also good to know that they face consequences, IF caught. But I think that would be of little console to someone who got screwed over by an AKC breeder and assumed that because it they bred AKC, they MUST be OK.

A registration having and enforcing rules does not remove the possibility that you could still get taken, get a dog with an illness or genetic defect, one that doesn't meet standard, etc. People need to be aware of that and more emphasis placed on properly researching the breed and breeders first, IMO.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Also, just to add one more thing. DNA profiling is not required of every single case of an AKC produced litter, so to make that claim and not consider that parentage of a litter can be easily falsified and never proven otherwise unless chanllenged IMO, gives a false sense of comfort.

No but DNA is required on most stud males unless they do very little (less than 3 litters). Most breeders therefore have their studs DNA'd. It's not a false sense of security if it can be challenged. Connor's parentage can be proven as the sire of both or his parents are DNA's as is his sire. It gives AKC a way to test and see if you are lying about who sired a litter. My Tayla is from Brazil and so her lineage is not recorded in the AKC studbook. I not only had to give them her pedigree and FCI papers once they were transfered into my name, I had to have her microchipped, DNA'd and send a front view and side view picture. Her litter will be verifiable because both parents have been DNA's.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

True, and I think it's great that they do enforce these issues and are stringent with them. Also good to know that they face consequences, IF caught. But I think that would be of little console to someone who got screwed over by an AKC breeder and assumed that because it they bred AKC, they MUST be OK.

A registration having and enforcing rules does not remove the possibility that you could still get taken, get a dog with an illness or genetic defect, one that doesn't meet standard, etc. People need to be aware of that and more emphasis placed on properly researching the breed and breeders first, IMO.

Education is always your best weapon against fraud. It is good to know that AKC is doing more than other registrations to protect the buying public and especially the dogs. Now if we could just close down the puppymills!

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

No but DNA is required on most stud males unless they do very little (less than 3 litters). Most breeders therefore have their studs DNA'd. It's not a false sense of security if it can be challenged. Connor's parentage can be proven as the sire of both or his parents are DNA's as is his sire. It gives AKC a way to test and see if you are lying about who sired a litter. My Tayla is from Brazil and so her lineage is not recorded in the AKC studbook. I not only had to give them her pedigree and FCI papers once they were transfered into my name, I had to have her microchipped, DNA'd and send a front view and side view picture. Her litter will be verifiable because both parents have been DNA's.

Well that is very honest that YOU take those step, protect yourself and conduct your program in a reputable way. But can the same be said about EVERY breeder? No way.
Again, MOST does not mean ALL. When the simple statement is made, AKC requires DNA profiling, bottom line is, that is not ALWAYS the case. So to use that as a justification of AKC's top-knotchedness (I will be copyrighting that term ) is not a valid or entirely accutate one, IMO. I would hate to think someone walked into a breeders home thinking to themselves, "Well, these dogs have been DNA verified because they are AKC." and it be one of those males that WASN'T tested. Or even better, that the male claimed to be the father wasn't required because this is his first and only time to sire and 6 months down the road find out that by George, the real sire to the litter was the neighbors Cocker Spaniel.

Yes, education and awareness and caution are always your BEST line of defense.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Well that is very honest that YOU take those step, protect yourself and conduct your program in a reputable way. But can the same be said about EVERY breeder? No way.
Again, MOST does not mean ALL. When the simple statement is made, AKC requires DNA profiling, bottom line is, that is not ALWAYS the case. So to use that as a justification of AKC's top-knotchedness (I will be copyrighting that term ) is not a valid or entirely accutate one, IMO. I would hate to think someone walked into a breeders home thinking to themselves, "Well, these dogs have been DNA verified because they are AKC." and it be one of those males that WASN'T tested. Or even better, that the male claimed to be the father wasn't required because this is his first and only time to sire and 6 months down the road find out that by George, the real sire to the litter was the neighbors Cocker Spaniel.

Yes, education and awareness and caution are always your BEST line of defense.

I think I have lost the point that you are trying tomake. Are you saying that AKC is not a better registry than the newer, what are often referred to as vanity registries? What are they doing to protect the integrity of purebred dogs? Do they have a DNA registry in place? Do they have hundred year old stud books on file?
I don't take the steps that I do to protect my line just because I want to. It is something that is required of me by AKC to protect the dog buying community. You're always going to run into people who are trying to get around the rules and hide their deceit. No registry or law is going to change that. But if I am going to support a registry with my hard earned dollars I want to know that I am supporting one that is at least trying to keep things honest and isn't just taking money for peices of paper that don't mean anything.
What does Top-knotchedness mean anyway, I'm afraid you lost me there.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

I think I have lost the point that you are trying tomake. Are you saying that AKC is not a better registry than the newer, what are often referred to as vanity registries?

Nope, not at all what I'm saying. I've actually stated several times in this thread alone that compared to other registries they are hands down the most reputable. So on that aspect, we agree.

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

You're always going to run into people who are trying to get around the rules and hide their deceit. No registry or law is going to change that.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.. There are decietful breeders in all registries, even AKC. Just because a breeder is using AKC doesn't mean they are honest and ethical. My point had nothing to do with what registry you choose to 'support.' I often see people educated on AKC with the claims that they are superior because they require DNA profiling when that is not entirely true. I think that it's a bit misleading, as it is not ALWAYS required. I think more emphasis should be placed on carefully choosing a breeder, not assuming you are getting something 'better' because of the paper(s) that come with the dog.

Sorry if I lost you--in all fairness, I think you lost me too.

[good_gurl63901]

ok so i have another question.. is there a way for someone to find out for sure that their pup is what they are suppose to be?? you all are talking about DNA and all, so can they take a sample and let you know what is 'in your pup'?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by good_gurl63901

ok so i have another question.. is there a way for someone to find out for sure that their pup is what they are suppose to be?? you all are talking about DNA and all, so can they take a sample and let you know what is 'in your pup'?

You can determine if the parents that the breeder claimed to have produced the pup ARE actually the parents. You would have to have a DNA sample from them as well though.

[Ladyhawk]

Sorry if I lost you--in all fairness, I think you lost me too.[/QUOTE]

We got so busy going around we lost track of where we were going!

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

We got so busy going around we lost track of where we were going!

I thought it was clear where we were going...in circles!