Do you approve of different colored yorkies?

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by mscat

Here is my opinion... A Yorkie that is not the right colors , to me, should not be considered a Pure bred Yorkie.... A parti colored Yorkie? To me that is a mixed breed, not A pure bred.
A Biewer is a specific breed of dog... It is not called a Biewer Yorkie. I have a hard time accepting off colored Yorkie's true to the breed because they are technically not.
As much as they are beautiful , I feel like they are of a mix breed. .. I am sorry, I do not want to offend anybody.
As for the Black and Tan Yorkie, I understood that a young puppy, ar a dog less the a few years old could still have these colors. When they mature their true adult colors appear. I have not seen an adult dog retain a black and tan coat the rest of it's life... I probably am mistaken though.

A mixed breed? Mixed with what?
Any dog that comes from two pure bred parents is pure bred. the partis and the biewers had the exact same beginnings, same dog, different country.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Red leg, black and tan and yorkies with dark golden points have been used and will most likely continue to be used, in breeding programs to enhance the color of their show stock. So why is it ok to breed, raise and sell some off colored yorkies but it's not ok to breed, raise and sell other off colored stock? That's what I don't understand?

This is very true. It is stated in "The Complete Yorkshire Terrier" by Joan Gorden and Janet Bennett.

[yorkiekist]

[QUOTE=Pinehaven;2193487]I can't comment on the Biewer questions since there are a number of Biewer registries with different rules and I don't know if any allow Biewer (parti gene) carriers to show in classes.

Again, standards for many breeds were written years ago prior to the scientific knowledge and DNA testing that we have today. If you review the YTCA's website, it states that:

"One of the reasons for avoiding breeding "off-colored" Yorkies is because it could be a genetic defect that may affect the dog's health. Some health problems can include, but aren't limited to, severe skin problems, allergies, total hair loss and in some cases long-term illness and/or death."

With the exception of the blue born yorkies, we know that the above statement is false. The other off colored yorkies are no more prone to health or illness problems, than the standard yorkies are. So that reason, for not breeding off colors, is a poor reason. This sounds like something people in the early 1900's would have thought because they knew no better; back in those days, that's what they were told, that off colors were genetically damaged, weak and unhealthy.

An ETCHIAL breeder (as you stated) does not breed dogs that are not to the written standard" but unfortunately, many YTCA members have been breeding outside the standard for years and will probably continue to do so in the future. Red leg, black and tan and yorkies with dark golden points have been used and will most likely continue to be used, in breeding programs to enhance the color of their show stock. So why is it ok to breed, raise and sell some off colored yorkies but it's not ok to breed, raise and sell other off colored stock? That's what I don't understand?[/QUOTe

I cant speak for other breeders breeding programs, but I have never had the need or desire to use a red leg or a black for color improvements. The coat texture is just not there. I do know that these two colors have been used. The last time I saw black dogs frequently being shown or used for breeding was in the 1980's. Dont see many exhibitors showing black anymore except in young dogs that have not turned blue yet. That being said, these two colors are still a terrier with a dark saddle and tan points(legs and head). The breed color pattern stamp (dark saddle, tan points) is still there as it always has been there. If these two colors can improve blue or tan then great! Hopefully you dont loose the silk texture in the process.These colors have always been in the gene pool just as running gold, soft hair or course hair is. I feel that most show breeders will only use these colors if the dog has everything else perfect. If the breeding doesnt create the desired color, or whatever quality you bred for, the pups are placed in pet homes and the breeding is not repeated. Most show breeders I know will only sell un-showable puppies as pets only and not for breeding. So, the breedings are only being done for improvements and are not perpetuating off colors or off color patterns. Partis, on the other hand, do not have the correct color or the correct color pattern by a long shot. They are so far off standard that it would be the same as if I were to purposely breed a Yorkie with a top-line like a Bedlington Terrier.(FYI, thats an analogy)

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I can't comment on the Biewer questions since there are a number of Biewer registries with different rules and I don't know if any allow Biewer (parti gene) carriers to show in classes.

Again, standards for many breeds were written years ago prior to the scientific knowledge and DNA testing that we have today. If you review the YTCA's website, it states that:

"One of the reasons for avoiding breeding "off-colored" Yorkies is because it could be a genetic defect that may affect the dog's health. Some health problems can include, but aren't limited to, severe skin problems, allergies, total hair loss and in some cases long-term illness and/or death."

With the exception of the blue born yorkies, we know that the above statement is false. The other off colored yorkies are no more prone to health or illness problems, than the standard yorkies are. So that reason, for not breeding off colors, is a poor reason. This sounds like something people in the early 1900's would have thought because they knew no better; back in those days, that's what they were told, that off colors were genetically damaged, weak and unhealthy.

An ETCHIAL breeder (as you stated) does not breed dogs that are not to the written standard" but unfortunately, many YTCA members have been breeding outside the standard for years and will probably continue to do so in the future. Red leg, black and tan and yorkies with dark golden points have been used and will most likely continue to be used, in breeding programs to enhance the color of their show stock. So why is it ok to breed, raise and sell some off colored yorkies but it's not ok to breed, raise and sell other off colored stock? That's what I don't understand?

I dont quite agree with the health issue about off colored Yorkies either with the exception of the blue born. I am not knowedgable enough on off colored health issues to make an informed opinion on that. The only thing that I can think of would be a compromised immune system and possibly some skin issues, but I have seen alot of that in traditional Yorkies as well.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I could not have said it better myself. In addition, the standards have been changed in the past and no doubt will be changed again. You can bet if the parti color becomes popular enough, the standard will be changed. And "yorkiekist" perhaps that is what you are afraid of and that is why you are so adement that these colors not be bred.

Actually, I am not afraid of anything except scorpions. I am not afraid that the parti color will take over or be accepted by the YTCA. They just made it perfectly clear in Oct, 2007 that partis and the other off colors were not allowed. And its not a popularity contest or T-cups would have been written into the standard many many years ago.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

That is how all new breeds get started is from people who are brave enough to face this type of opposition and breed outside the standard.

And yes parent club change their standards all the time to what ever is popular with the dog lovers.

Ok, when was the last time that YTCA drastically changed their standards to cater to what-ever is popular at the time? And I am not talking about Oct of 2007.

Can you tell me when the StCA changed their standard to cater to the "popular" people?

And to respond to how new breeds get started: Go start your own breed and leave the Yorkie breed alone. Maybe you can call it the parti terrier!

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

The wording might deem us to be unethical, but i cannot see how it is considered to be so as long as our first concern is the health and temperament of the offspring.

Kudos to you on breeding healthy dogs! Never had a doubt about that. The unethical part has to do with not breeding to the YTCA standard, not health issues. Although, breeding without screening for health issues for the breed is also considered unethical.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Awwwwwwwww that was so nicely put. I'm guessing that you are very nice too.

Thanks!! By the way, some people call me Aunt Crabby(amoung other things!!LOL)

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

I cant speak for other breeders breeding programs, but I have never had the need or desire to use a red leg or a black for color improvements. The coat texture is just not there. I do know that these two colors have been used. The last time I saw black dogs frequently being shown or used for breeding was in the 1980's. Dont see many exhibitors showing black anymore except in young dogs that have not turned blue yet. That being said, these two colors are still a terrier with a dark saddle and tan points(legs and head). The breed color pattern stamp (dark saddle, tan points) is still there as it always has been there. If these two colors can improve blue or tan then great! Hopefully you dont loose the silk texture in the process.These colors have always been in the gene pool just as running gold, soft hair or course hair is. I feel that most show breeders will only use these colors if the dog has everything else perfect. If the breeding doesnt create the desired color, or whatever quality you bred for, the pups are placed in pet homes and the breeding is not repeated. Most show breeders I know will only sell un-showable puppies as pets only and not for breeding. So, the breedings are only being done for improvements and are not perpetuating off colors or off color patterns. Partis, on the other hand, do not have the correct color or the correct color pattern by a long shot.

Thank you ... you nailed it on the head!

You say the colors Red leg, black and tan, and running gold, have always been in the gene pool and their color has been used in breeding programs to improve the blue and tan color. Well parti, golden and chocolate have always been in the gene pool too, they've just been culled, kept quiet and disposed of.

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

They (parti, chocolate and goldens) are so far off standard that it would be the same as if I were to purposely breed a Yorkie with a top-line like a Bedlington Terrier.(FYI, thats an analogy)

This is what I don't understand ... that it's ok to breed, raise and sell some off colors but it's not ok to breed, raise and sell other off colors.

When I see the YTCA and it's members, adamantly discriminate and condemn all off colors and not just certain off colors, than I'll begin to have a better understanding of their views.

Where do you think the genes for the red legs, black and tan, running gold yorkies came from ... same place that the parti gene, chocolate gene and golden gene came from, "In the Beginning"! It's from the unknown genes of the many types of terriers that began this breed.

Remember, the only acceptable color in our breed is Blue and tan. Not one of the above dogs listed, will meet that color standard but only some of those off colors are condemned, while some of those off colors are accepted and incorporated into todays breeding programs.

So, it's ok to be off color just as long as it's not way off color? Maybe YTCA needs to clarify that in their written standards?

[BamaFan121s]

I quit !!!

YouTube - Beating The Dead Horse

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I quit !!!

YouTube - Beating The Dead Horse

I'm sure you think this was a funny way of making your point but I find it offensive ... I lost my first horse in March this year after 17 years of owning horses and I just don't see the humor. Sorry.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I'm sure you think this was a funny way of making your point but I find it offensive ... I lost my first horse in March this year after 17 years of owning horses and I just don't see the humor. Sorry.

Soo sorry. Anyone can take just about any post put on here and turn it into something that someone applies to some life experience and deem it offensive. It's a pretty common phrase that I thought fit...a phrase which is used in life and on this forum quite often. You can rest assured I didn't post it to offend or upset you.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Soo sorry. Anyone can take just about any post put on here and turn it into something that someone applies to some life experience and deem it offensive. It's a pretty common phrase that I thought fit...a phrase which is used in life and on this forum quite often. You can rest assured I didn't post it to offend or upset you.

I know you didn't intentionally think the Youtube movie may upset someone and I use that phrase myself but saying the phrase is one thing and posting a graphic animated illustration is another ... I'm just glad you weren't trying to illustrate "That's one way to skin a cat"

[BamaFan121s]

Well, I don't know about graphic...it looked pretty corny to me...

But I promise, no skinning the cat illustrations.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

A mixed breed? Mixed with what?
Any dog that comes from two pure bred parents is pure bred. the partis and the biewers had the exact same beginnings, same dog, different country.

I also think that there was a "fly in the pudding" also. Probably a few flies. Its very easy to add the parti gene and then breed back the Yorkie look. That doesnt take very many generations nor an Einstein. Does anyone have any proof, pictures or documentation of parti Yorkies from the 30's to the 70's? It seems to me that these odd colored Yorkie started appearing about the same time as the onslaught of bybrs who most often times had multiple breeds. At that time it was EXTREMELY easy to falsify AKC registration papers as there were very infrequent kennel inspections and no mandatory DNA tests. And does anyone know exactly what Mr Biewer was breeding prior to him proudly presenting his parti colored "yorkies" only to be turned down by the breed club? Is anyone positive he only bred Yorkies? Is anyone positive that he didnt falsify records?
I will address the statement that any dog that comes from purebred parents are purebred: Not if the records were falsified. This could be generations ago or only 1 generation ago. This is why the AKC must register off colored offspring. Its only because the parents are AkC registered, but in fact, are actually mixes with falsified registration papers. This is why it cant be stressed enough that a person really needs to research the breed and get to know several breeders before making a purchase.