Do you approve of different colored yorkies?

[MinMuf1]

Originally Posted by mayfateleadyou

I know this is going to get critized but I believe as long as someone does the research on the genetics and health issues they should not be critized for putting their money time and effort into a particular color or trying for a certain look then let them. For all we know someone who may even come on here and get fussed at and critized could very well be the founder of a breed that in 100 hundred years from people will love as much as we love our yorkies! And yes I love the color of a golden yorkie.

I am not one to "approve" or disapprove of any color yorkies. I love all yorkies regardless of color! That being said, for me as long as a Breeder takes care in breeding for excellent health, conformation, temperment and practices selective placement of offspring, then who am I to judge! Although this site is a god send compared to other sites I have come to know, the ongoing feud regarding color puts a dark cloud over being a member here. JMO

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by love_me_cody

You know, I always wondered that. Will someone try to strive for an all white parti (which it will then not be called a parti) or try to go for an all Black parti?

At this point, I think the parti breeders will have to learn what matings work best to achieve the best color. Not knowing what spotting gene or combination of spotting genes our parti's carry (and different lines may have different combinations), it's hard to say. Personally, I wouldn't try to breed for all white, because there is a higher incident of deafness associated with all white dogs (compared to dogs with color around their ears). I'm afraid that breeding Parti to parti will wash the pigment out of our dogs and we'll wind up with parti's who have little color.

I think that Biewers may have the Irish spotting pattern, characterized by white that is generally confined to the neck, the chest, the underbody, the legs and the tail tip. The white does not cross the back between the withers and the tail. Biewers have "color standards" but that's because their dogs carry a spotting gene that has a somewhat predictable pattern. Parti yorkies on the other hand, probably have a combination of Irish spotting, piebald spotting and extreme white spotting and at this point, there is no control over where the spots will fall.

I know you were kidding but don't think there'd be even the slightest possibility of a black parti ... but I never say never!

[yorkiekist]

[quote=Pinehaven;2010971]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

I'm not trying to change your mind but I am trying to educate those who are on the fence so they can see all sides of the story and decide for themselves.

There are several different spotting genes. Dogs can carry one type of spotting gene or a combination of spotting genes, the Maltese would be an example of extreme white spotting. Maltese do have pigment around the eyes, nose, paw pads and when wet, they have freckling on their body.

Some of our parti yorkies are being born now, that are all white (extreme white expression), it will be interesting to see if two solid white parti's will produce litters of all white parti pups? Guess time will tell.

So, why doesnt the black pigment show up on other parts of the body on a Maltese? Or is the Maltese just one big white spot?

[love_me_cody]

I have a question (Not Yorkie Related) but have anyone heard anything about a Maltese being able to produce a different color then all white (maybe a little color on the chest or so)?

[yorkiekist]

I think they can have just a tiny bit of lemon yellow or light tan hairs on the ears. It is not a spot, but an intermingling of off colored hairs. I dont know of any other places on the body that is not white except the eye rims and lips that should be black.

[love_me_cody]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

I think they can have just a tiny bit of lemon yellow or light tan hairs on the ears. It is not a spot, but an intermingling of off colored hairs. I dont know of any other places on the body that is not white except the eye rims and lips that should be black.

Thank You...

[Pinehaven]

[quote=yorkiekist;2011403]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

So, why doesnt the black pigment show up on other parts of the body on a Maltese? Or is the Maltese just one big white spot?

Funny you should ask that question, I use to raise Golden and Sabino (pinto) colored Morgan horses and here something I found on the internet about sabino pinto coloring ...

"Sabino White
Some white horses may actually be a type of pinto horse whose white markings are "fully" or "maximally" expressed, meaning, essentially, that the entire horse is one big white spot."

So yeah, I guess you are right, the Maltese is just one big white spot!

There are a lot more genes involved besides the spotting gene but I'll try to make it simple.

There are 2 basic base coat colors: black/brown and red/yellow but then there are other genes and gene modifiers that affect those colors. Some genes affect/dilute pigment color, some affect/dilute coat color and some influence the same color, adding some amount or a pattern of white spotting.

The maltese breed is an old breed and has been breeding the maximum expression of white to the maximum expression of white for years - they are homozygous for the extreme white spotting. So homozygous extreme white bred to homozygous extreme white = homozygous extreme white offspring.

Some Maltese do display a tan or lemon pigment around their ears, in horses, the extreme expression of pintos, generally have some pigmentation around the ears, flanks or tail.

[cooperk]

AKC breeding is a hobbie. With any hobbie, one must find new and interesting things about the subject. I think creating new variations of the breed, but keeping the original Yorkie standard seperate would be a good thing. Perhaps it would keep some AKC breeders from distorting some breeds to the brink of unhealthiness. I am disheartened when I see any dog's nose so compressed that they cannot breath correctly. There was a great show on PBS about the history of AKC (or KC), which showed what certain breeds looked like years ago and how they have been changed so much within AKC. Breeders have not always done a service to the breed.

Beautiful color variations would be a lovely interest that would not be unhealthy to the breed. I would most certainly want to see it as a different listing of the breed, to preserve the Yorkie standard as it is now.

[cooperk]

[quote=Pinehaven;2011669]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Funny you should ask that question, I use to raise Golden and Sabino (pinto) colored Morgan horses and here something I found on the internet about sabino pinto coloring ...

"Sabino White
Some white horses may actually be a type of pinto horse whose white markings are "fully" or "maximally" expressed, meaning, essentially, that the entire horse is one big white spot."

So yeah, I guess you are right, the Maltese is just one big white spot!

There are a lot more genes involved besides the spotting gene but I'll try to make it simple.

There are 2 basic base coat colors: black/brown and red/yellow but then there are other genes and gene modifiers that affect those colors. Some genes affect/dilute pigment color, some affect/dilute coat color and some influence the same color, adding some amount or a pattern of white spotting.

The maltese breed is an old breed and has been breeding the maximum expression of white to the maximum expression of white for years - they are homozygous for the extreme white spotting. So homozygous extreme white bred to homozygous extreme white = homozygous extreme white offspring.

Some Maltese do display a tan or lemon pigment around their ears, in horses, the extreme expression of pintos, generally have some pigmentation around the ears, flanks or tail.

Thanks for this post, Sue. Very interesting!

[Gingergirlsmom]

This entire thread has been extremely interesting and informative. Makes me want to research canine genetics.

As far as my opinion goes, I do loved the variety of colors.

[animal1]

I too LOVE the parti Yorkies! Sue I always enjoy reading your post. Your post are so informative and very interesting. Thank you so much for sharing.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

At this point, I think the parti breeders will have to learn what matings work best to achieve the best color. Not knowing what spotting gene or combination of spotting genes our parti's carry (and different lines may have different combinations), it's hard to say. Personally, I wouldn't try to breed for all white, because there is a higher incident of deafness associated with all white dogs (compared to dogs with color around their ears). I'm afraid that breeding Parti to parti will wash the pigment out of our dogs and we'll wind up with parti's who have little color.

I think that Biewers may have the Irish spotting pattern, characterized by white that is generally confined to the neck, the chest, the underbody, the legs and the tail tip. The white does not cross the back between the withers and the tail. Biewers have "color standards" but that's because their dogs carry a spotting gene that has a somewhat predictable pattern. Parti yorkies on the other hand, probably have a combination of Irish spotting, piebald spotting and extreme white spotting and at this point, there is no control over where the spots will fall.

I know you were kidding but don't think there'd be even the slightest possibility of a black parti ... but I never say never!

I think if the partis had set standards, like the Biewers, there would be more conformity in breeding, but with no standards set, so one knows what they are breeding for. They just breed to personal preference.

I personally like the black saddle and the black over both eyes.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

My perspective is a bit different. First and formost I think we all agree that the health of the offspring is of utmost important.

With that said, AKC is a "club" with rules and regulations. If we are breeding Yorkies with the intent to register them under the AKC Registry, then breeders should breed within the standards. I copied the following exerpt from the AKC site regarding color: Disqualifications: Any solid color or combination of colors other than blue and tan as described above. Any white markings other than a small white spot on the forechest that does not exceed 1 inch at its longest dimension.

That is the standard set by the YTCA, it is the standard for showing. The AKC registers the partied colored yorkies, I don't know about the other colors. But I see nothing wrong with breeding for the color variation.

As for the high cost of the off colors. The breeders that bought the parents at a high cost cannot afford to turn around and sell the offspring at traditional yorkie prices. We didn't set the price. The price will come down as more breeders start breeding them. But if you set the price too low, people will question their authenticity. Well I would anyway.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I think if the partis had set standards, like the Biewers, there would be more conformity in breeding, but with no standards set, so one knows what they are breeding for. They just breed to personal preference.

I personally like the black saddle and the black over both eyes.

I like full masks and I'd love to see more markings across the back but it seems to be a crap shoot as to where the markings will fall in our dogs. Haven't you noticed that too Jeanie? I haven't seen one Parti breeder consistently produce markings like the Biewers, have you?

I'm afraid if our standards were as strict as the Biewers, that there would be a very limited number of parti's that meet the parti color standards (I know that would make a lot of people happy ). I think, for the most part, there are just different spotting genes involved in our AKC parti's than there are in the Biewers.

Just as the YTCA can't make off color genes disappear from the yorkie gene pool, we (parti breeders) won't be able to make or control the placement of color because our dogs have spotting genes or combinations of spotting genes, that produce more random markings. I don't think that our parti lines have the Irish spotting gene alone, which the Biewers seem to have in most instances.

Now with horses, the breeders of the Clydesdales (Budwiser Beer Draft horses) have learned to control the sabino gene markings to a point. They like to see big face blazes and 4 white legs. They've learned that by breeding a horse with 4 white legs to a horse with at least 1 dark leg, that will produce foals with the desired markings most of the time. When breeding 4 white legs with another horse with 4 white legs, they'd normally get more loudly/wildly marked foals.

Parti breeders will need time to find out what works best, to produce more consistent markings.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I like full masks and I'd love to see more markings across the back but it seems to be a crap shoot as to where the markings will fall in our dogs. Haven't you noticed that too Jeanie? I haven't seen one Parti breeder consistently produce markings like the Biewers, have you?

I'm afraid if our standards were as strict as the Biewers, that there would be a very limited number of parti's that meet the parti color standards (I know that would make a lot of people happy ). I think, for the most part, there are just different spotting genes involved in our AKC parti's than there are in the Biewers.

Just as the YTCA can't make off color genes disappear from the yorkie gene pool, we (parti breeders) won't be able to make or control the placement of color because our dogs have spotting genes or combinations of spotting genes, that produce more random markings. I don't think that our parti lines have the Irish spotting gene alone, which the Biewers seem to have in most instances.

Now with horses, the breeders of the Clydesdales (Budwiser Beer Draft horses) have learned to control the sabino gene markings to a point. They like to see big face blazes and 4 white legs. They've learned that by breeding a horse with 4 white legs to a horse with at least 1 dark leg, that will produce foals with the desired markings most of the time. When breeding 4 white legs with another horse with 4 white legs, they'd normally get more loudly/wildly marked foals.

Parti breeders will need time to find out what works best, to produce more consistent markings.

I wish I knew just half of what you know about genetics.