Do you approve of different colored yorkies?

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Trevor, Welcome to the colorful side of this ongoing discussion. I doubt that petitions would do any good. The YTCA members are members because they are against the color variations. You have to be against it just to become a member.

We'd have more luck petitioning the AKC than the YTCA. I believe that the first thing that needs to be done, is to form a club for the color variations, and set some standards, and go from there.

YTCA members are there to protect the "blue-print" or standard of the Yorkshire Terrier. This standard never included non-standard colors as parti, blonde, chocolate, all silver, or any other color that is not a metallic blue saddle and a shaded tan head and legs. Yes, they are against color variations, as well they should be, amoung other important things as structure, conformation, gait and health issues. There are many other criteria to becoming a YTCA member than just "being against" color variations.

[xxmxaxrxyxx]

Originally Posted by red98vett

I can't 'approve' or disapprove - but I LOVE yorkies just the way they are - what attracted me to them was their 'colors' ...I love the dark and light together -

What DOES bother me is the people who breed/broker and advertise "Rare colors" and charge outrageous prices.

me too!

[Catrina]

Originally Posted by red98vett

I can't 'approve' or disapprove - but I LOVE yorkies just the way they are - what attracted me to them was their 'colors' ...I love the dark and light together -

What DOES bother me is the people who breed/broker and advertise "Rare colors" and charge outrageous prices.

agree

[Pinehaven]

Teddy and Tiffyy, Please be sure to copy and paste quotes from the correct poster, and not just copy the quoted material in another posters reply. Yorkiekist made the reply that you quoted (NOT ME) , though it was from a thread that I was quoting and replying to. My reply is under Yorkiekist's quote.

Just wanted to make sure there was no confusion.

[quote=TeddyandTiffy;2157227]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

As usuall, you will not change my mind nor I yours. Why would a Maltese create a parti color when they are not a parti color, they are a solid white with no spots? Length of hair also came from the Waterside Terrier(know extinct)and the Skye Terrier which, back then, were very much smaller dogs than they are today and they also got the blue color from them. I believe someone posted the history of the Yorkie by the Wildweir ladies. Its interesting to read.

I'm not trying to change your mind but I am trying to educate those who are on the fence so they can see all sides of the story and decide for themselves.

There are several different spotting genes. Dogs can carry one type of spotting gene or a combination of spotting genes, the Maltese would be an example of extreme white spotting. Maltese do have pigment around the eyes, nose, paw pads and when wet, they have freckling on their body.

Some of our parti yorkies are being born now, that are all white (extreme white expression), it will be interesting to see if two solid white parti's will produce litters of all white parti pups? Guess time will tell.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

[/QUOTE

Also, it has never been proven that Maltese was used to create this breed. The Wildweir ladies, who have done more research over seas(where the breed was developed) on this breed than anyone else has and got the breed started in the US, tend to believe not.

It may not have been proven but it has also never been disproven. It is documented in numerous books and articles that I've seen online and in printed publications, that the maltese was used to enhance the texture and length of the early yorkie's coat. I won't believe one version over the other, it was way before my time , but I will use my own judgement and common sense in making up my mind. My own opinion is that, I just don't see how anyone can believe that there were no other color genes in our early foundation yorkies besides than blue and tan.

We're are not just talking about the Maltese spotting genes in our dogs, but any foundation part bred dog who is traced back in our early yorkie history. These were dogs with no pedigree, dogs who ran the streets, dogs who were cross breds. They themselves may look Blue and tan but that doesn't mean that there are no other color genes hidden in their genetic makeup. We've seen recent surprise litters on YT that contain parti colored and traditional colored pups, the same would happen in foundation litters. Just because Swift's Old Crab was the correct color, doesn't mean his litter mate wasn't parti, chocolate or golden colored.

I like to use the attached illustration to make a point. Pictured is a group of Terriers from the 1860 Book of Field Sports by Henry Downes Miles, illustrated by DJ Watkins-Pitchford. The caption under the illustration says the drawing depicts, The Skye Terrier, The Scotch Terrier, The English Smooth Terrier, The Crossed Scotch Terrier, The Dandie Dinmont and The Bull Terrier. A number of these breeds of dogs were used in the creation of the Yorkshire Terrier breed. Note that two of the 6 dogs pictured are parti colored ...

Now, if you can tell me the genetic make up of the parents, grandparents and great grand parents of the dogs in the illustration, and if you can tell me if any of these dogs were or were not used in the bloodstock of our foundation dogs, then will you please give me the a winning lottery ticket number for this week???

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

YTCA members are there to protect the "blue-print" or standard of the Yorkshire Terrier. This standard never included non-standard colors as parti, blonde, chocolate, all silver, or any other color that is not a metallic blue saddle and a shaded tan head and legs. Yes, they are against color variations, as well they should be, amoung other important things as structure, conformation, gait and health issues. There are many other criteria to becoming a YTCA member than just "being against" color variations.

Sorry Lynn, I'm not picking on you but ...

Then why have Black coated yorkies been accepted? Why are black coats and red legs used in some reputable breeding programs? Why were black coats allowed to show prior to the color disqualification rule and pictured in the breed publication?

With the exception of blue born yorkies, Off colored yorkies have no more health risks than the blue and tan yorkies have and a quality colorful yorkie, will have the same structure, conformation, and gait as a well bred blue and tan yorkie has?

I won't join the YTCA because it would make me a hypocrite, since I would not be abiding by their written code of ethics concerning their coat color requirements ... that being said, wouldn't that mean that YTCA members who uses black coats and red leg yorkies in their breeding program in breach of YTCA's code of Ethics too?

Just some food for thought.

[diggy4]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

It may not have been proven but it has also never been disproven. It is documented in numerous books and articles that I've seen online and in printed publications, that the maltese was used to enhance the texture and length of the early yorkie's coat. I won't believe one version over the other, it was way before my time , but I will use my own judgement and common sense in making up my mind. My own opinion is that, I just don't see how anyone can believe that there were no other color genes in our early foundation yorkies besides than blue and tan.

We're are not just talking about the Maltese spotting genes in our dogs, but any foundation part bred dog who is traced back in our early yorkie history. These were dogs with no pedigree, dogs who ran the streets, dogs who were cross breds. They themselves may look Blue and tan but that doesn't mean that there are no other color genes hidden in their genetic makeup. We've seen recent surprise litters on YT that contain parti colored and traditional colored pups, the same would happen in foundation litters. Just because Swift's Old Crab was the correct color, doesn't mean his litter mate wasn't parti, chocolate or golden colored.

I like to use the attached illustration to make a point. Pictured is a group of Terriers from the 1860 Book of Field Sports by Henry Downes Miles, illustrated by DJ Watkins-Pitchford. The caption under the illustration says the drawing depicts, The Skye Terrier, The Scotch Terrier, The English Smooth Terrier, The Crossed Scotch Terrier, The Dandie Dinmont and The Bull Terrier. A number of these breeds of dogs were used in the creation of the Yorkshire Terrier breed. Note that two of the 6 dogs pictured are parti colored ...

Now, if you can tell me the genetic make up of the parents, grandparents and great grand parents of the dogs in the illustration, and if you can tell me if any of these dogs were or were not used in the bloodstock of our foundation dogs, then will you please give me the a winning lottery ticket number for this week???

Agreed. I jsut love yorkies no matter the color. And for the reasonyou have pictured....I too believe NOONE including AKC or any other group can say where the white comes from. Well the picture you have shown (and i have seen many times before) sure does give a good hint I see lots of white.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Then why have Black coated yorkies been accepted? Why are black coats and red legs used in some reputable breeding programs?

They are implemented into a breeding program to bring richness in color back to lines that have become 'washed out' looking. When they are used in breeding, they are done so with the intent of still producing offspring that meet the standard. Also, this is a very recent change to what is accepted--it will take time but I would suspect that eventually you will see less and less of the black and tan yorkies.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

YTCA members are there to protect the "blue-print" or standard of the Yorkshire Terrier. This standard never included non-standard colors as parti, blonde, chocolate, all silver, or any other color that is not a metallic blue saddle and a shaded tan head and legs. Yes, they are against color variations, as well they should be, amoung other important things as structure, conformation, gait and health issues. There are many other criteria to becoming a YTCA member than just "being against" color variations.

As the parent club, the YTCA sets the standard for yorkshire terriers and it is subject to change....such as the recent additional of allowing a small white patch on the chest.

I believe to become a member of YTCA you either must be referred or have references from other YTCA members.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

They are implemented into a breeding program to bring richness in color back to lines that have become 'washed out' looking. When they are used in breeding, they are done so with the intent of still producing offspring that meet the standard. Also, this is a very recent change to what is accepted--it will take time but I would suspect that eventually you will see less and less of the black and tan yorkies.

So here's is where an understanding of genetics comes into play - I have to think back to the equine genetics here ....

The gene that causes our yorkies to have steel blue coats is the grey dilution gene. Grey is a dominate gene, meaning a dog will be grey if they have one copy of the gene (heterozygous form). If mother and father are both homozygous for grey (each parent carries 2 copies of the grey gene) all their pups will be homozygous with 2 copies of the grey gene and grow up to be "blue" with no chances of being black (that's the goal, you want to insure that you will produce blue 100% of the time). By breeding a black coated yorkie (they have no copy of the grey gene) to a heterozygous steel blue coated yorkie (a yorkie who is blue but only has one copy of the grey gene), you are deliberately producing litters where some of the the pups will grow up to be grey and some of the pups will be black.

Black coated yorkies have been accepted in the breed and are used in many breeding programs. The reason why we have black coats in our yorkie blood lines, is the same reason that we have parti, golden and chocolate in our bloodlines - it's from the foundation stock that were a hodgpodge of unknown genes. We see many more black coated yorkies in our breed because they weren't culled the way the other off colors were but that doesn't mean that the colorful genes that are popping up now are new, it just means that these surprise colors are no longer culled as quickly, since they are now allowed to be registered with AKC.

If all yorkies were homozygous for the grey gene, there would never be another black coated yorkie produced and that obviously isn't the case as we know ... it's all in the genes (or lack of genes).

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

It may not have been proven but it has also never been disproven. It is documented in numerous books and articles that I've seen online and in printed publications, that the maltese was used to enhance the texture and length of the early yorkie's coat. I won't believe one version over the other, it was way before my time , but I will use my own judgement and common sense in making up my mind. My own opinion is that, I just don't see how anyone can believe that there were no other color genes in our early foundation yorkies besides than blue and tan.

We're are not just talking about the Maltese spotting genes in our dogs, but any foundation part bred dog who is traced back in our early yorkie history. These were dogs with no pedigree, dogs who ran the streets, dogs who were cross breds. They themselves may look Blue and tan but that doesn't mean that there are no other color genes hidden in their genetic makeup. We've seen recent surprise litters on YT that contain parti colored and traditional colored pups, the same would happen in foundation litters. Just because Swift's Old Crab was the correct color, doesn't mean his litter mate wasn't parti, chocolate or golden colored.

I like to use the attached illustration to make a point. Pictured is a group of Terriers from the 1860 Book of Field Sports by Henry Downes Miles, illustrated by DJ Watkins-Pitchford. The caption under the illustration says the drawing depicts, The Skye Terrier, The Scotch Terrier, The English Smooth Terrier, The Crossed Scotch Terrier, The Dandie Dinmont and The Bull Terrier. A number of these breeds of dogs were used in the creation of the Yorkshire Terrier breed. Note that two of the 6 dogs pictured are parti colored ...

Now, if you can tell me the genetic make up of the parents, grandparents and great grand parents of the dogs in the illustration, and if you can tell me if any of these dogs were or were not used in the bloodstock of our foundation dogs, then will you please give me the a winning lottery ticket number for this week???

You always show this Illistration and it is just that, a drawing from the 1800's. That does not mean that any of these dogs were bred together, its just a picture from someones whim. I dont see any use for adding Maltese to the mix as the Waterside terrier had silk hair, but since they are extinc, whos to say now. So, what happened to all the colored/parti Maltese? Were they "bred out" of existance? Kind of like the parti Yorkie perhaps? And where are all the parti Silky Terriers? If the parti gene is sooooooooo strong in Yorkies, it surly would have raised its ugly head in that breed as well.

Well, this is a worn out discussion!! You and I will NEVER know the complete truth unless you have a time machine handy. I will just stick to my guns and give kudos to the YTCA for not allowing parti/choc/blonde breeders a grand entrance towards membership.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

As the parent club, the YTCA sets the standard for yorkshire terriers and it is subject to change....such as the recent additional of allowing a small white patch on the chest.

I believe to become a member of YTCA you either must be referred or have references from other YTCA members.

A small patch of white on the chest has always been allowed. The only thing that was changed was how big the spot can be.

You are correct about the membership. You need two references/recomendations by breeders that are already members.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

You always show this Illistration and it is just that, a drawing from the 1800's. That does not mean that any of these dogs were bred together, its just a picture from someones whim. I dont see any use for adding Maltese to the mix as the Waterside terrier had silk hair, but since they are extinc, whos to say now. So, what happened to all the colored/parti Maltese? Were they "bred out" of existance? Kind of like the parti Yorkie perhaps? And where are all the parti Silky Terriers? If the parti gene is sooooooooo strong in Yorkies, it surly would have raised its ugly head in that breed as well.

Well, this is a worn out discussion!! You and I will NEVER know the complete truth unless you have a time machine handy. I will just stick to my guns and give kudos to the YTCA for not allowing parti/choc/blonde breeders a grand entrance towards membership.

I guess I'll have to find some new illustrations to post to keep you happy (Big Wink). It is an illustration by a well known artist who was contracted to draw his pictures per the context of the book (dog sport and field trials, IIR). It was drawn just prior the time period when the yorkshire breed had officially become a breed and I think it gives one an idea of how different types of different dogs, ran freely together. Since they did not spay or neuter back in those days, well, I think you can see the picture I'm trying to paint.

The maltese color is the extreme expression of the spotting genes - basically they're just one big spot - and we are now seeing parti yorkies that are being born solid white in color like the Maltese. Maybe the parti gene has been produced in the Silky Terriers bloodlines ... I haven't researched that one yet!

[lulababy]

i like the look of the partis, biewers and the chocolate ones. i think you can register them akc though even though they arent the standard.. i also have a black/tan yorkie and I think shes beautiful.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I guess I'll have to find some new illustrations to post to keep you happy (Big Wink). It is an illustration by a well known artist who was contracted to draw his pictures per the context of the book (dog sport and field trials, IIR). It was drawn just prior the time period when the yorkshire breed had officially become a breed and I think it gives one an idea of how different types of different dogs, ran freely together. Since they did not spay or neuter back in those days, well, I think you can see the picture I'm trying to paint.

The maltese color is the extreme expression of the spotting genes - basically they're just one big spot - and we are now seeing parti yorkies that are being born solid white in color like the Maltese. Maybe the parti gene has been produced in the Silky Terriers bloodlines ... I haven't researched that one yet!

I think it's a safe assumption. Many many breeds produce parti colors. Some parent breed clubs accept this colorization and some do not.