TRAINING YOUR DOG (Alpha or Leader of the Pack whatever you want to call it)

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by Muffie's Mom

Sad enough - there will be no improvement in my health problems. I just have to keep doing what the doctors tell me to do, take my medicine, eat healthy and exercise.

I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your little Yorkie. I don't believe in mistreating dogs either.

They are what we train them to be.

God bless you.

Muffie's MOM~~

You know how much I LOVE you and how much your posts mean to all of us here. I hope you know that your opinions are valued and your ideas and advice are valued and YT wouldnotbe the same w/o your assistance and wisdom.

[Jaspermom]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Muffie's MOM~~You know how much I LOVE you and how much your posts mean to all of us here. I hope you know that your opinions are valued and your ideas and advice are valued and YT wouldnotbe the same w/o your assistance and wisdom.

I could not agree with you more! Pat is awesome and one of my best friends on this site. She is a completely amazing woman, and you are correct, YT would not be the same without her.

HUGS to you, Miss Pat!! Love ya, girl!

[Yorkie Mum]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I have no particular devotion to Caesar Millan but
I do not believe this.

I have watched almost every episode of the show and he has never used choke collars on the TV show, he does not "jerk" like I was taught to do back in the 70s when I first learned obedience training, he NEVER hits, and I have seen him gently put a dog who is attempting to attack on the ground...never harshly or in anger but only in self defense and defense of others. I have NEVER seen him use "physical punishment" or any kind unless you include lots of exercise to use up excess energy as "physical punishment".

Joy~ I think you should watch just a few episodes and I think you may change your mind about him.

IMO his approach is very positive as opposed to negative but I guess it may depend on your defintion of those terms. He obviously loves dogs and would never intentionally harm one.

Believe it or not as you see fit.
What is left on the cutting room floor when edited would most likely prove the
point. When he trains a clients dog he goes away and comes back what in the time happens.
That remark that Paul made was up on a site that is open to the world and easy for Ceaser to go after for liable.
I will be having a chat with my own Behaviourst on the man to see her opion As well maybe it is time to take the question to those at training site for aggression as ask those that train other explosive dogs what there thoughts on this guy is.
For me I am done. When one is willing to publicly put ones name, and livelyhood on the line against a very public person and a Oparh loved person and face the music then I vote on Paul Ownes side
Zebra's do not change thier stripes and where there is smoke a fire will occur.
I willing to wait and watch and we will see.

Joy

[Muffie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Jaspermom

I could not agree with you more! Pat is awesome and one of my best friends on this site. She is a completely amazing woman, and you are correct, YT would not be the same without her.

HUGS to you, Miss Pat!! Love ya, girl!

Thank you, Sweetie! It touches the heart!

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by Yorkie Mum

Believe it or not as you see fit.
What is left on the cutting room floor when edited would most likely prove the
point. When he trains a clients dog he goes away and comes back what in the time happens.
That remark that Paul made was up on a site that is open to the world and easy for Ceaser to go after for liable.
I will be having a chat with my own Behaviourst on the man to see her opion As well maybe it is time to take the question to those at training site for aggression as ask those that train other explosive dogs what there thoughts on this guy is.
For me I am done. When one is willing to publicly put ones name, and livelyhood on the line against a very public person and a Oparh loved person and face the music then I vote on Paul Ownes side
Zebra's do not change thier stripes and where there is smoke a fire will occur.
I willing to wait and watch and we will see.

Joy

Joy~

We are all learning here and I meant no offense by what I posted. I simply disagreed with Paul Owens' assessment of Caesar Millan's training methods.

Do you think that Paul Owens is "against" Caesar Millan as you say, or that he just disagrees with some of his training methods? Do they know each other personally and has Mr. Owens witnessed the jerking and use of choke chains? I do not know...I only know what I have seen on the show and from the one time when I met Caesar Millan in person briefly.

I am always looking to learn new things and because I was trained in the 70s to use choke chains and to jerk to teach "heel" I was just happy to see that training has progressed away from those methods and become so much more humane. I think Ceasar's approach is gentle and humane and I am sure that Paul Owens' is as well. Caesar is the very first dog trainer that I have watched on TV.

Have you seen any of the shows? Like I said before I think you would be surprised at his calm and amazing demeanor with animals. I might be wrong. I certainly don't think Caesar would sue Paul Owen's for libel. I doubt he feels that that website would do him much harm. The proof is in the actions of the man and his success rate.

Just as I do not agree with spanking or otherwise physically punishing children, I disagree with the same for dogs. Violence and physical force is never the answer imo and I think common knowledge has progressed to appreciate this fact too. Do I condemn my parents because they physically punished me when I was a child? No, that was acceptable then.

As I stated, I am not taking "sides" per se...I am telling what I have seen and what I have heard out of the man's mouth, period. I am sure that Paul Owens is also a very good trainer. I KNOW for a fact that Caesar Millan is. I am just learning about Paul Owen as you apparently are about Caesar Millan.

We also have a YT memeber/breeder who was on the show with her dogs and her BF, Tanyastinytots!! She would be a good resource about what really happened and what was shown on TV.

They cannot cut out the "basic" training philosophy and the demeanor of the person and leave it on the cutting room floor. You would have to watch the show to see what I mean. You can tell by the way he talks that he is a positive person and that he KNOWS dog psychology.

Your contributions to this thread have been wonderful.. ..I have certainly appreciated them and will read the books and articles you have recommended. I saw Paul Owens' book at Costco I think. I will pick it up. Please do not stop posting here. We all love to learn better and new ways to train our dogs.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Just as I do not agree with spanking or otherwise physically punishing children, I disagree with the same for dogs. Violence and physical force is never the answer imo and I think common knowledge has progressed to appreciate this fact too. Do I condemn my parents because they physically punished me when I was a child? No, that was acceptable then.

The problem is that holding a dog to the ground until it stops struggling IS using physical force. This is not a "positive" training method in the eyes of "positive" trainers. There are TWO demonstrations on the website of this technique. So, in this case, we are never all going to agree.

[Yorkie Mum]

I am not sure if they personally know each other but I am sure they know of each other. Both have been around the block a time or two and I am sure they have crossed paths.
The training world around aggression dogs is small and one gets a reputation fast just like in the show world. everyone knows everyone else.
So you know I am not allowed to discuss what I know from some else who was trained with him it is a matter of privacy.
What I am trying hard to say is his training is negative based and not postive.
He works by correction not inplanting the skills and teaching it first.
Do you know what Flooding is?
Not good stuff at all. Flooding does not fix the problem it puts a cap on it so it sits there and waits to pop up again. this time worse.
As far as basic training and demenor you can have a two faced thing happening. I am not at all saying that he is in any way shape or form doing this. Just it happens and in the last few years sadly I have seen it.
Sometimes people have the skill set that is books and the knowledge but not able to put it into practice in a way that works and some have the skill set they can make like they can do it have the knowledge behind them.
Yes I have watch enough of him to not need to again.
I have also watch a few that are Canadain I thought when I first started training they hung the moon.
Now I watch with a more educated eye and see the body language on the dogs and what is happening and I cringe. Still have freinds that think they are outstanding.
I ask you go read more I have tons of titles. Clicker Training for Obedince by Morgen Spector.
Now it is clicker but it is writen by a Zebra that changed his stripes.
He not all the way ckicker ( my thoughts, not his he still uses what he calls shuff shakes and that not needed to get attetion back at all ) but he can and does explplain why choke callors and negavtive stuff can and does get wrapped up in Motivational training that looks like postive but is not.
By the way I am also not all the way clicker I still lure and I still want to correct but I try hard not to go there.

I like to chat about training and that is what this is a chat not a fight not hunting trouble a learning chat.
I am not planning to not post unless everytime I answer or ask a question I get go watch this guys show.
For me It a waste of time as I am long past in my level of training to get anything out of it. I am down to refineing the little things and better management of a girl that is still here cause I learned a differnt way.
Thanks for being accepting of this chat and also my inability to spell and my grammer mistakes.
Lets keep talking.

joy

[Yorkie Mum]

Originally Posted by Erin

The problem is that holding a dog to the ground until it stops struggling IS using physical force. This is not a "positive" training method in the eyes of "positive" trainers. There are TWO demonstrations on the website of this technique. So, in this case, we are never all going to agree.

Got to second that it stops learning.
Alpha rolls are wrong full stop wrong.
Shuts learning down all the way. Makes the dog work out of fear and well that is bad for a fear based aggressive dog.
Got one here sad to say I tried it.
Have you ever watch a dogs eyes go dead.
I have done a whole bunch wrong training this girl.
If it out there most likely execpt for the shoke collar it been done to this girl.
She alive and she happy cause I watch her quite, I saw with my own eyes her not wanting to be her. Not with me not anyone.
Her mind broke so bad and I did it, me.
I got the privlage of seeing again after the pit bull tossed her to the ground in November and then she went after a guy. Gone not there in her head.
That hurt goes deep in both of us.
That she trust me now is her will to live and my will to make it right.
When I speak and when I post it is bad it because I have been there.
I am not proud to say I did it not one bit.
I own it and we are moving pasted it.
But I hurt me furkid, my wee girl cause someone told me it was rigth.
It not and nerve will be. Just because a dog might have a stronger mind and body to cope with the asult ( alpha roLL) does not make it right.
Never ever again will I put her in harms way.


Joy

[red98vett]

Hey Pat....I know we talked.... but hugs to you again and PLEASE don't let anything stress you out....Just look at a few MAXINE Cartoons and things will all get back into perspective

[crystalsmom]

Yes Pat, I know we talked. This will never end!!!!!!

[Yorkie Mum]

Why??
Seriously why?
No one is attacking anyone. That is a member of this board.
Questioning the abilty of a non member. Yes.
What is being put forward is if educational on both sides.
I learned a ton.

Joy

[crystalsmom]

Originally Posted by Yorkie Mum

Why??
Seriously why?
No one is attacking anyone. That is a member of this board.
Questioning the abilty of a non member. Yes.
What is being put forward is if educational on both sides.
I learned a ton.

Joy

Joy, it had nothing to do with this thread, only post #69 trying to start more
problems. This has been going on forever between two people. I wrote
Admin and explained everything so they know just why I am leaving.

[Muffie's Mom]

I see not a thing wrong with post # 69.

This is exactly why I'm thinking of leaving. I wish people would stop this!

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by crystalsmom

Joy, it had nothing to do with this thread, only post #69 trying to start more
problems. This has been going on forever between two people. I wrote
Admin and explained everything so they know just why I am leaving.

Excuse ME ? I talk to Pat EVERY DAY via email and have since she joined this site....This is the first time I've seen her stressed....

we have talked about learning how to post pictures and spent hours together while she learned. We talk about grooming - training - and LOTS more - MY POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE else here.

My post was simply from one friend to another because I want her to stay.....

Sorry Joan - maybe you misunderstood me - there was no hidden meaning in my post and to tell you the truth ....I was aso was thinking of leaving this site too. Mainly because of things like this.

and Thank you Pat....I know you understood me and I still do want you to stay....You've shared so much with this site it would be Yorkietalks loss if you left....

[hasrv4fun]

Originally Posted by Muffie's Mom

I see not a thing wrong with post # 69.

This is exactly why I'm thinking of leaving. I wish people would stop this!

Me either-
Hang in there Pat , one of us leaving at a time is enough
Talk to you later -just saw this