TRAINING YOUR DOG (Alpha or Leader of the Pack whatever you want to call it)

[Yorkie Mum]

Originally Posted by diva pup

Oh I am ok It wasn't the trainers fault or even Rios. It was mine. I should add that the trainer is my neighbor who trains Search and Rescue dogs for Fema(Fima?) and other groups . She IS very good but she knows me and she knows Rio. I am sure it would have been obvious to even the most casual observer that I thought my dog hung the moon and I was never going to be a strict disciplinarian EVER. Nobody to blame for that failure but me
Can I add that my GSD is very well trained Just so you don't think I am a total idiot LOL.

I never thought you where a total idiot.
See mine hangs the moon too.
You live life with your dogs as you are comfortable and they are too.
I love to see your freind train those dogs are amazing.
I am not a strict disciplinarain at all. We have rules and we follow them but our home is as casual as I can make it and still have my girl feel comfortable and safe. I got into training and the theory behind it and am looking into how to get my masters in behaviour not cause I wanted to but I had a baby in crises. This stuff I know is and was to keep her safe and healthy.
Without it she be long time gone, both in her mind and on the face of this earth.
Even my behavoiurist shakes her head at my girl and just how far we have come. In November we all thought she not be with us much longer but we did it. She going forward and is happy again.
I truly wish I had never had to learn this that I do know as I have a healthy girl. Or I wish I know when I got her about all the bad ways to train before I unloaded them on her fraglie mind. I not trade her for anything and what she has taught me is well life changing but I would gladly take her pain for her any day.

Joy

[diva pup]

Quote socal{I am agreement as well as to how important training is to the dog and the owner. I like your comment about it "doesn't mean you have to change their persoanlity" but can you imagine a dog who is forced to be the one in control?? That is a lot of stress for a small dog and I think they would all prefer that WE be the ones in control. I just think it is psychologically healthier for the dog for the human to assume the alpha position.}

How do you FORCE a dog to be in control? Just asking, I don't feel in our situation anyone was forced to be anything. And I have to disagree with it since I can assure you Rio is not at all stressed, quite the contrary actually. He is a happy self assured little dog who may be a little bossy and opinionated but he is certainly not stressed.

I am all for training but please do not assume that because a dog isn't obedience trained they are miserable and stressed either. What works for one dog or even most may very well not be what makes the world turn for another.

[Muffie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Yorkie Mum

Click for Joy: The Clicker Training Answer Book, by Melissa Alexander
This is easy and simple book. Like you would post a question here and I would answer it.
The Other End of the Leash, by Dr. Patricia McConnell
Little harder but well worth the read.
On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals, by Turid Rugaas
This is a most short easy and a gem of a book. Simple and a most read.
I just read it again this weekend and learned more it not bog but it is packed.

Joy

I bought "Clicking With Your Dog" (Step-by-Step in Pictues) by Peggy Tillman. I hope it'll be OK.

I put "On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals" on my list to buy next.

Thanks a lot!

[crystalsmom]

Originally Posted by diva pup

Oh Joan, I know that. I certainly didn't mean to imply that it did take away their personality. I am against any very aggressive kind of training but obedience training is great. It just didn't work with Rio LOL. IF he had objectionable behavior I would have stayed in that class, I just wanted him to come when I called him. He had gotten himself into some pretty precarious situations when he was younger . He is much better now with a confined area and he needs to be on a leash for our walks still but all in all he is a VERY good boy,however Alpha he is.

Dawn, you are probably one of the best owners on this site. You will always
do the best for your dogs and we as owners are the only ones that know our dogs completely and how far we can go with them.

[diva pup]

Originally Posted by crystalsmom

Dawn, you are probably one of the best owners on this site. You will always
do the best for your dogs and we as owners are the only ones that know our dogs completely and how far we can go with them.

Oh Joan, That is such a sweet thing to say. Rio and I are just happy with how well I am trained LOL. I am just lucky lucky lucky that Rio is so laid back but I will be getting those training tips for little Miss Mignon from you I am sure! .

I do want to give kudos to those who have trained their dog and those who educate on it, it takes dedication and commitment to train any animal. I think for most dogs and people it is key to living together happily.
Just not me and Rio (Joke)

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by diva pup

Oh Joan, That is such a sweet thing to say. Rio and I are just happy with how well I am trained LOL. I am just lucky lucky lucky that Rio is so laid back but I will be getting those training tips for little Miss Mignon from you I am sure! .

I do want to give kudos to those who have trained their dog and those who educate on it, it takes dedication and commitment to train any animal. I think for most dogs and people it is key to living together happily.
Just not me and Rio (Joke)

As a good friend who's known you a pretty long time now - I can SECOND what Joan said ....you're a great Mom and Rio is perfect as he is....it's what makes him special. He's not called the KING for nothing !

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by diva pup

How do you FORCE a dog to be in control? .

Because of their "pack instinct" in the dog's world someone has to assume that role.....if the human fails to assume the role of leader, then the dog is forced to. It is a tough job, to be the alpha.

I know you well enough from your posts Dawn to agree with everyone who praises you for the care and love you give all of your animals. I would never doubt that for a second. You and I have gone down this road before and we don't need to do it again as we simply do not agree in this area and that is okay with me.

So, with all sincerity, I say ...Long Live Rio, the King!!!

[Yorkie Mum]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Because of their "pack instinct" in the dog's world someone has to assume that role.....if the human fails to assume the role of leader, then the dog is forced to. It is a tough job, to be the alpha.

Could you read....
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27693

http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti....htm#dominance
All these are training articles under dominance.
the Dominance Myth, by Pamela Buitrago, (new 1/22/2005)
"Drive" Theory, by Doug Johnson
Hugging Your Dog, by Barry McDonald
The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory, by Melissa Alexander -- revised edition
Social Hierarchies, by Ian Dunbar
The Macho Myth, by Ian Dunbar
Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog?, by Ian Dunbar

Alpha and Dominance theroy and pack wolf stuff is old and even the guys that first did the study have stopped using it as it is not the correct way a dog works.
I would love to chat more with you on this but off the board.

Joy

[diva pup]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Because of their "pack instinct" in the dog's world someone has to assume that role.....if the human fails to assume the role of leader, then the dog is forced to. It is a tough job, to be the alpha.

I know you well enough from your posts Dawn to agree with everyone who praises you for the care and love you give all of your animals. I would never doubt that for a second. You and I have gone down this road before and we don't need to do it again as we simply do not agree in this area and that is okay with me.

So, with all sincerity, I say ...Long Live Rio, the King!!!

Thanks for clarifying.
And yes, we have gone down this road before and I really don't want to revisit it either.
I have stated I was absolutly the one who failed but it works for us. I never said it would work for everyone or even anyone else. In fact, I think it wouldn't and my personal opinion is everyone would do well to read the posts and take the advise of those here who are knowledgable in training.Remembering also that not all dogs respond to all training methods the same. They are still individuals.
Joan said it best when she said we are the only ones who know our dogs and how far we can go with them.

At 47 I think I know that Rio is not a human in a dog suit, the problem is he doesn't.

[scrapindee]

There was so much good info on this thread. Thank you all for sharing. Bailey is an Alpha dog and it has been an interesting experience training him as a service and therapy dog. First time, I ever did it with an Alpha......I have to continue to read and stay one step ahead.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by Yorkie Mum

Could you read....
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27693

http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti....htm#dominance
All these are training articles under dominance.
the Dominance Myth, by Pamela Buitrago, (new 1/22/2005)
"Drive" Theory, by Doug Johnson
Hugging Your Dog, by Barry McDonald
The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory, by Melissa Alexander -- revised edition
Social Hierarchies, by Ian Dunbar
The Macho Myth, by Ian Dunbar
Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog?, by Ian Dunbar

Alpha and Dominance theroy and pack wolf stuff is old and even the guys that first did the study have stopped using it as it is not the correct way a dog works.
I would love to chat more with you on this but off the board.

Joy

I must admit that I take a lot of my most recent dog training knowledge from Caesar Milan who has the show, the Dog Whisperer, and he definitely still trains according to the theories of alpha dog and pack mentality . He is very successful so I don't know if the authorities you cite have "proven beyond a scientific question" that they are correct, or if there are simply different opinions at this point in time.

He is one of the premiere dog trainers right now, so I cannot imagine he would be teaching about these if they were scientifically proven to be outdated. I will read those books as I am very interested in learning more.

Thanks Joy.

[Muffie's Mom]

AND, he has a new book coming out in April.

You can find it on the web now. I preordered mine already.

There is a nice write-up about him at this website:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...whisperer.html

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Joy~

I just read the second article you posted the link to and I don't think what it says conflicts with what Caesar Millan teaches since he also asserts his ledership position throuhg calm assertiveness, not aggression or dominance. He is "alpha" but he does it in a non-violent, calm manner.

Interesting reading. I am looking forward to learnong more.

[Yorkie Mum]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I must admit that I take a lot of my most recent dog training knowledge from Caesar Milan who has the show, the Dog Whisperer, and he definitely still trains according to the theories of alpha dog and pack mentality . He is very successful so I don't know if the authorities you cite have "proven beyond a scientific question" that they are correct, or if there are simply different opinions at this point in time.

He is one of the premiere dog trainers right now, so I cannot imagine he would be teaching about these if they were scientifically proven to be outdated. I will read those books as I am very interested in learning more.

Thanks Joy.

He is only premiere in the world of TV.
The guys I quote are the leaders of the training world both here in North America and over seas. The guys I have learned with are the best of the best. Who I read pack PHD and masters and have been out there making clicker and postive work for the world and the dogs not just for thier piggy banks.
That is my point right there he is teaching out dated stuff.
This alpha is not right and dogs are dogs stuff is still newish.
Calling himself Alhpa is to make it understandable to lay people.
That in turn opens up the whole if Alpha is right that pitch a dog to the floor, hitting and use of a fly swatter to bring order is ok. It is not.
The door to Alpha was to close.
This new resaerch is easily available and easy to find and understand.
I take my info form a multitude of places and from actually people that I train with face to face. Not just a show on TV.
It will be the way of things hopefully sooner then later.

Joy

[Erin]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

He is one of the premiere dog trainers right now, so I cannot imagine he would be teaching about these if they were scientifically proven to be outdated. I will read those books as I am very interested in learning more.

Thanks Joy.

One of the other "trainers" I see on TV all the time is Uncle Matty. He uses negative training techniques. He uses correction and other methods that can basically make a dog obey you because they fear you rather than because they *want* to. The poor dogs look stunned after he's done jerking on their collars. Reward based methods never involve punishing the dog. Just because someone is popular or on TV does not mean they are using the latest research or even mean they know what they are doing. Uncle Matty should not be advocating these techniques because while many people use them, someone watching at home can could permanent damage to their dog.

I don't know much about Cesar Millan and I don't get the channel he is on but I did watch the clips that they have on the website. What I saw was disturbing and involved very little training. The dogs were not asked to do anything. How is the dog supposed to know what is expected of it? That is not training. Dogs want to please us and we need to teach them how to do that. Please take a look at this website - there is a quote from the man who wrote the original "Dog Whisperer" book and contrasts Cesar's methods with true positive training methods.

http://www.naturespet.com/dogwhisperer.html

The info that YorkieMum is giving is fantastic information. Please just take the time to read The Other End of the Leash or another book that discusses the behavior of dogs and the philosophy of positive dog training. The research IS there, I promise you that.