Cesar debate thread

[YorkieMother]

[QUOTE=chattiesmom;2751998
I truly wish that you could work with a "Cesar" type trainer in person so that you could get the whole picture.
And when we've finished with Cesar, let's debate another great trainer -- so we can all learn even more.[/QUOTE]

Someone is napping just wanted to pop in and say thanks support is always welcome when she having a tough time. If only she keep the food inside her tummy long enough to do any good.
Will keep you update if your intrested on her progress and as this is the last post in the thread if caught my eye. As I was trying to find the last post.

I have worked with a Ceaser Type thanks. Will pass on ever doing that again.
Remeber I have turned over more rocks and kissed a ton of toads to help my girl. Sure wish one trun into a prince and fix her. At least with postive I not making it any worse and we do make slow progress.

Suggestion go pull apart Ian Dunbar..
Dog Star Daily
Sirius Dog Training

See you around ,naps over.

JL

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Where did I say that you said something that you did not say? I reply to the post, the quote is there to show what you said.

I have not been rude to anyone. I just debate what is being said.

Out of everyone that saw the video, you two are the only ones that saw choking. It is not my fault that others, saw it differently. It's all a matter of opinion and your opinion is in the minority.

...which means... what? That I must be wrong?

If you can't see that calling someone stupid or slanderous is rude, I can't talk with you. There has to be a basic level of respect between people debating. I'm not going to respond to you anymore because we don't seem to be able to connect in any productive way.

chattiesmom, I brought VS up as an example of another trainer because someone said that any trainer would be getting criticized like Cesar, simply by being on television. VS is a valid counter example, even if she's not explicitly mentioned in the thread title. If you don't know much about her, I encourage you to watch her, as I think you would like her very much.

I absolutely disagree that Cesar knew what was going to happen. Absolutely not. Are you really saying he was planning to get repeatedly bitten by a dog? Again, what if the leash had broken? I would lay odds that if you asked him, he would say he made a mistake. Yes, it's true all trainers make mistakes, and all trainers get bitten. To again, I must say: put a net under your high wire act. If a dog is volatile, then don't use a high pressure technique.

As for whether I've seen a dog choked, no, I have never seen someone throttle a dog to death, if that's what you mean. Have I see a dog's air supply cut off briefly? Sure. For the record, I don't think Cesar was abusing the husky, though I can't be certain. I think he started too rough as he often does, and the dog reacted in a not especially surprising way.

To be frank, I will never work with a trainer like Cesar because I do not agree with his philosophy and I don't connect with his energy thing at all. I started this thread feeling much more ambivalent about Cesar, but I was quite shocked when I re-watched some of his earlier episodes, where I think the dog body language was much less ambiguous than the two cases we're discussing here. VS on the other hand... well, she'd probably make me cry, but I would love to learn from her.

I still need to watch the Akita episode.

[YorkieMother]

"JeanieK to qoute you . you said....your opinion is in the minority.".

I am not thinking so.

IPDTA, APTD, CPDT, CAPPDT are all dog training assoicaation in Canada and the USA, Those be the bog dog training associations in both counrties not including Truly Dog Freindly dog training assoication.

Then we get inot Austialia which be the APDT cool same letters as the US one and look what they post as there mission statement.

1. Definition of Dog Friendly
The Association of Pet Dog Trainers Australia Inc definition of "dog friendly" (as used in our Mission and Vision Statements and Code of Ethics) is:

"Dog friendly training is training that utilises primarily positive reinforcement, negative punishment and rarely, and as a last resort, includes negative reinforcement and/or positive punishment".

Definitions*
Positive Reinforcement
This is a reward (something pleasurable) that, when given immediately after a response, increases the probability of that same behavioural response occurring again. For example if a dog is rewarded for sitting by being given a tasty piece of food after being given the command "sit", then the dog is more likely to sit again next time that same command is given.
To be most effective the reward has to be
1. Immediate
2. Consistent
3. Desirable

Negative Punishment
The withdrawal of a pleasant stimulus or event that leads to a decrease in a behaviour is considered a negative punishment. For example, placing a dog into a sin bin, immediately after performing an unacceptable behaviour would be considered a negative punishment if it lead to a decrease in that behaviour. (N.B. from Ethics sub-committee: it is to be noted that in a training situation, the withdrawal of an expected reward is also considered negative punishment).

Negative Reinforcement
This is often confused with punishment. It is something unpleasant or aversive that, when it is removed immediately after a response, increases the probability of that response recurring. For example, loosening the choke chain after a dog stops pulling on it, teaches the dog that it is less painful to walk to heel than to pull on the lead.

Positive Punishment
While reinforcement, either positive or negative, increases the probability of the preceding response occurring again, punishment is intended to have the opposite effect. It decreases the probability of the preceding response occurring again. Positive punishment is the addition of an aversive stimulus or event. For example yelling at a dog or smacking would be considered a punishment only if it leads to a decrease in the behaviour……. (N.B. from Ethics sub-committee: positive punishment and negative reinforcement are also known in traditional training as 'avoidance' training methods)


Pet Products & Supplies
THE INFORMATION CONTAINED ON THIS PAGE IS
RELEVANT TO AUSTRALIA ONLY!

Reasons as to why 'Shock Collars' can't legally be imported into Australia.



It's ILLEGAL to import or for you to own a SHOCK COLLAR!

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Someone is napping just wanted to pop in and say thanks support is always welcome when she having a tough time. If only she keep the food inside her tummy long enough to do any good.
Will keep you update if your intrested on her progress and as this is the last post in the thread if caught my eye. As I was trying to find the last post.

I have worked with a Ceaser Type thanks. Will pass on ever doing that again.
Remeber I have turned over more rocks and kissed a ton of toads to help my girl. Sure wish one trun into a prince and fix her. At least with postive I not making it any worse and we do make slow progress.

Suggestion go pull apart Ian Dunbar..
Dog Star Daily
Sirius Dog Training

See you around ,naps over.

JL

In all due respect for QuickSilver, who started this thread, my remarks were directed to her. We all know your prejudice against Cesar. Mercury is starting down a training journey trying her best to find training methods that will help her with Thor. It is a shame that her YT family can't present information -- the same information perhaps once or at most twice and then allow her to come to her own conclusions.

I sincerely hope that those who are sitting on the fence regarding Cesar and his methods will be able to sift through the information here, discard the overtly prejudice both towards him and against him and come to a personal decision that will best suit them.

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

...which means... what? That I must be wrong?


chattiesmom, I brought VS up as an example of another trainer because someone said that any trainer would be getting criticized like Cesar, simply by being on television. VS is a valid counter example, even if she's not explicitly mentioned in the thread title. If you don't know much about her, I encourage you to watch her, as I think you would like her very much.

I absolutely disagree that Cesar knew what was going to happen. Absolutely not. Are you really saying he was planning to get repeatedly bitten by a dog? Again, what if the leash had broken? I would lay odds that if you asked him, he would say he made a mistake. Yes, it's true all trainers make mistakes, and all trainers get bitten. To again, I must say: put a net under your high wire act. If a dog is volatile, then don't use a high pressure technique.

As for whether I've seen a dog choked, no, I have never seen someone throttle a dog to death, if that's what you mean. Have I see a dog's air supply cut off briefly? Sure. For the record, I don't think Cesar was abusing the husky, though I can't be certain. I think he started too rough as he often does, and the dog reacted in a not especially surprising way.

To be frank, I will never work with a trainer like Cesar because I do not agree with his philosophy and I don't connect with his energy thing at all. I started this thread feeling much more ambivalent about Cesar, but I was quite shocked when I re-watched some of his earlier episodes, where I think the dog body language was much less ambiguous than the two cases we're discussing here. VS on the other hand... well, she'd probably make me cry, but I would love to learn from her.

I still need to watch the Akita episode.

Mercury, although I disagree with you regarding the thought processes behind the Husky incident I respect your right to come to your own conclusions. Our perceptions and ideas are molded by where we are on our life's journey. Watching a television episode is an unfair way to evaluate a trainer. I do wish you the best of luck with Thor. Since you have decided that you do not like Cesar or his methods, I don't feel like I can add anything to the discussion.

[JeanieK]

[QUOTE=YorkieMother;2752040]"JeanieK to qoute you . you said....your opinion is in the minority.".

I am not thinking so .......................................

QUOTE]



OH brother!!!!

First of all, We were discussing the episode with the Huskey,
Second I was referring to those posting on this thread.

So let me calrify.

There are more of us YTers, that are posting on this thread, that do not believe that Cesar was choking the dog, but just trying to defend himself and keep everyhone else safe. than there are that believe that he kicked, hit, and chocked the dog.

Does that make it more clear???

This is all a matter of opininon you see black I see gray.

We all know that you do not like Cesar or anything he does. You've made that clear.

I see an angry person that has a very sick little dog that she used some of Cesar's dominance training on, before she knew the dog was not well and now that she knows, she is feeling very bad about it and, due to her anger is striking out at Cesar.

You did not know, the dog does not hold a grudge. You did what yhou thnought was right at the time with no malice intended, you thought you were doing what was best for her.

That's all that we can do. You made an error in judgementd, you're humand.

Forgive yourself and enjoy making the rest of her days as comfortable as possible and let her go. I think you are holding on to her out of guilt. It's hard and it's sad, but it is the kindest thing to do.

I'm very sorry that you are going thnrough this. After learning of your situation, your anger at Cesar makes much more sense.

And if it makes you feel better, be angry at me too. I have broad shoulders, i can take it.

I will continue to read the thread, but will not discuss it any further. Unless someone starts to throw around unsubstantiated accusations about me or Cesar.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

...which means... what? That I must be wrong?

If you can't see that calling someone stupid or slanderous is rude, I can't talk with you. There has to be a basic level of respect between people debating. I'm not going to respond to you anymore because we don't seem to be able to connect in any productive way.

chattiesmom, I brought VS up as an example of another trainer because someone said that any trainer would be getting criticized like Cesar, simply by being on television. VS is a valid counter example, even if she's not explicitly mentioned in the thread title. If you don't know much about her, I encourage you to watch her, as I think you would like her very much.

I absolutely disagree that Cesar knew what was going to happen. Absolutely not. Are you really saying he was planning to get repeatedly bitten by a dog? Again, what if the leash had broken? I would lay odds that if you asked him, he would say he made a mistake. Yes, it's true all trainers make mistakes, and all trainers get bitten. To again, I must say: put a net under your high wire act. If a dog is volatile, then don't use a high pressure technique.

As for whether I've seen a dog choked, no, I have never seen someone throttle a dog to death, if that's what you mean. Have I see a dog's air supply cut off briefly? Sure. For the record, I don't think Cesar was abusing the husky, though I can't be certain. I think he started too rough as he often does, and the dog reacted in a not especially surprising way.

To be frank, I will never work with a trainer like Cesar because I do not agree with his philosophy and I don't connect with his energy thing at all. I started this thread feeling much more ambivalent about Cesar, but I was quite shocked when I re-watched some of his earlier episodes, where I think the dog body language was much less ambiguous than the two cases we're discussing here. VS on the other hand... well, she'd probably make me cry, but I would love to learn from her.

I still need to watch the Akita episode.

Hold on!!!!d

Show me exactl;y where I called anyone stupid. I do not use that term in my normnal daily life, so I know I did n ot use it here.

Slanderous, yes, but it was towards someone who claimed that Cesar abuses dogs regularly. I called them out on it and will colntinue to do so. If you make such accusations and claim to have first hand knowledge of it I will call you out on it too.

If that episode with the huskey was abusive and Cesar leaves all of his abuse on the cutting room floor, then why was tis episode aired.???

Before acusing me of anything you had better be able to show the proof. tell which post number I called anyone stupid. And don't just quote it because quotes can be altered, I want the actual post number.

I have debated on here on many threads, and I do not resort to name calling, I state my side. I leave the name calling to others.

I never said that he knew what was going to happen, I said just the opposite. Are you sure you do nopt have me mixed up withsomeone else.

I have watched VS, I have stated several times that I do not like bribing dogs to do something. Just teach them how to be good pack members and that will resolve most minor behavior isues.

I never asked if you had seen a dog choked, are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else?

If that episode was so abusive, and so incriminating and he cuts all of his episodes to only show the good stuff, why did he air that one??

I respect you and I respect everyones right to thier own opinions. But no one has a right to make slanderous comments about some one unless they have proof of what they are talking about and not just gossip that they have read in some internet chatroom.

ARe you sure it is me you are talking about??? Cause none of that sounds like me.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Mercury, although I disagree with you regarding the thought processes behind the Husky incident I respect your right to come to your own conclusions. Our perceptions and ideas are molded by where we are on our life's journey. Watching a television episode is an unfair way to evaluate a trainer. I do wish you the best of luck with Thor. Since you have decided that you do not like Cesar or his methods, I don't feel like I can add anything to the discussion.

So true and now that I know what yorkiemother is dealing with concerning her dog, I can understand why she is so angry.

[JeanieK]

Quicksilver
After going back and reading posts that I had missed. I now know that you have me confused with someone else.

Whew!!! for a minute there I thought I must have been "sleep typing", cause I did not remember saying any of those things. LOL

However the person that did say them has had many very wise contributions to this thread and everything has been said very respectfully.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Mercury, although I disagree with you regarding the thought processes behind the Husky incident I respect your right to come to your own conclusions. Our perceptions and ideas are molded by where we are on our life's journey. Watching a television episode is an unfair way to evaluate a trainer. I do wish you the best of luck with Thor. Since you have decided that you do not like Cesar or his methods, I don't feel like I can add anything to the discussion.

Again, you know I love you , but since no one on this thread has met Cesar, aren't we all evaluating him based on his television series? Isn't almost everyone in the country doing that? After all, I get many tips from VS, who has her own tv series. I'm not saying I've looked into Cesar's soul, but I'd say with both trainers, we know way more than if we were just interviewing people, or looking to go to a seminar.

Of course we should listen to other people that we trust when considering training methods, and I believe to some degree that should be experts in the field. That doesn't mean if someone has a Phd, they must be right, but it doesn't mean they have nothing to offer either. If you were looking for trainers and your friend recommended for or against one, wouldn't you take that into account?

Anyway, maybe the thread needs to cool down a little. It's a couple dozen pages at this point, a lot has been said, and repeated.

A lot of really interesting resources have been posted in the thread, and I am going back and reading them all. And, still need to watch the Akita eppy! I looked on Hulu, but I couldn't find it. I'll have to try again.

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Again, you know I love you , but since no one on this thread has met Cesar, aren't we all evaluating him based on his television series? Isn't almost everyone in the country doing that? After all, I get many tips from VS, who has her own tv series. I'm not saying I've looked into Cesar's soul, but I'd say with both trainers, we know way more than if we were just interviewing people, or looking to go to a seminar.

Of course we should listen to other people that we trust when considering training methods, and I believe to some degree that should be experts in the field. That doesn't mean if someone has a Phd, they must be right, but it doesn't mean they have nothing to offer either. If you were looking for trainers and your friend recommended for or against one, wouldn't you take that into account?

Anyway, maybe the thread needs to cool down a little. It's a couple dozen pages at this point, a lot has been said, and repeated.

A lot of really interesting resources have been posted in the thread, and I am going back and reading them all. And, still need to watch the Akita eppy! I looked on Hulu, but I couldn't find it. I'll have to try again.

Finally, a question that I can answer with 100% accuracy and certantity. I am NOT evaluating Cesar the man or movie star. I am evaluting specific training techniques that Cesar discusses in his books - remember I don't watch TV . Through my own trial and error with the dogs, horses and people in my life I determine whether or not these specific training techniques work. If they work I keep them, if they don't I discard them.

I have given my perspective about specific training events, i.e. the huksy, BUT I would not dare to question the man's motives, intentions, or morals.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Finally, a question that I can answer with 100% accuracy and certantity. I am NOT evaluating Cesar the man or movie star. I am evaluting specific training techniques that Cesar discusses in his books - remember I don't watch TV . Through my own trial and error with the dogs, horses and people in my life I determine whether or not these specific training techniques work. If they work I keep them, if they don't I discard them.

I have given my perspective about specific training events, i.e. the huksy, BUT I would not dare to question the man's motives, intentions, or morals.

OH, I see! Okay, we are coming from totally different places then, since I have watched several seasons of The Dog Whisperer, but I have not read his books. I love reading books, but it's really different to see on tv. You've got that farm of yours, so it's different for you.

I'm not questioning Cesar as a human being. He's done many segments on rescue work and s/n programs, which I think is wonderful. As I said, you can't hate a man who teaches a girl with cerebral palsy to walk her dog. I believe he loves animals (including the human animal). I don't think he believes his methods are too rough, it's just that I do. But we've covered that.

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

OH, I see! Okay, we are coming from totally different places then, since I have watched several seasons of The Dog Whisperer, but I have not read his books. I love reading books, but it's really different to see on tv. You've got that farm of yours, so it's different for you.

I'm not questioning Cesar as a human being. He's done many segments on rescue work and s/n programs, which I think is wonderful. As I said, you can't hate a man who teaches a girl with cerebral palsy to walk her dog. I believe he loves animals (including the human animal). I don't think he believes his methods are too rough, it's just that I do. But we've covered that.

If nothing else comes from any of my posts, I am glad that we finally have an understanding. I am going to have to buy his CD's so that I can watch them on my little mini cd player where not only can I see but I can hear as well. You don't know how much I appreciate your bolded statement above. I do believe we both understand where the other is coming from.

When you finally make it to Georgia and come to the farm, I can show you why sometimes it is necessary to use more assertive training techniques. We can do both - use both a VS type technique and a Cesar type technique (they work with horses as well as with dogs) and you can see where sometimes the VS works best and sometimes Cesar works best. Got that plane ticket yet?

[chewie123]

I love to watch the dog whisperer and I admire Cesar. I don't worry too much about his methods. Some work some don't.

I worry a lot more giving my trust to veterinarians when I hear they give yearly shots that can make my dogs really sick just for the sake of money. I should be able to trust a vet 100% with my dog's health.

Cesar's method does a lot less harm compare to what can happen with some vet's "care" these days.

[QuickSilver]

I thought I had to take a slow train through Georgia!