Cesar debate thread

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

I cannot understand why it is so important to throw PHD behaviourists around. Most YTers are fully intelligent enough to watch, read, and evaluate the suitability of training techniques for themselves without having to be led by some stranger we know nothing about. Unfortunately many lack the confidence to try.

Each of us is (or should be) the best trainer for our own dogs. We all have the responsibility to learn what will work best for our situations and dogs. For me, I use a combination of ideas gleaned from a lifetime of working with animals. Although I do not agree that all of Cesar's techniques will work for me or my Yorkies, I have found many that do.

Let me try it this way then
Say someone a human you know had a mental break down......
Now where would you go for help.....
A DR. a PHD, MD, Carded Doctor not a quack right.
Not your next door neighbour or the kid on the corner that looked after his dotty auntie for 20 years.
What I am saying is that Ceaser does not have the skill set to work with the dogs he seems to think he can. Some maybe.
But the one that was afraid of thunder no. That on the playing level of a human nervous break down not a slick fix up by a quack.
Not when the first thing out the door evertime is pack leader take charge...some of these dogs need to to stop and let them get a grip and take the lead as if you bully they bite.

When playing around with mental health you play go to those carring the full deck of knowledge and you do not start from rough you start at the point a dog in major stress can give you and build not tear down.

JL

[Akbritt]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I'm glad someone was able to satisfy you on page 17.

I wasn't going to post But then I just couldn't help my self.

[QuickSilver]

Again, I think it can be problematic because there is still so much we don't know. I'd certainly rather work with a dog trainer who has 15 years experience than someone who has none at all. At the same time, many people who have worked with children for fifteen years are good, bad, or indifferent teachers, and there are lots of different styles of teaching. Again, I feel that we are further along in our understanding of dog learning than we are with people, so while I don't feel like I can speak with confidence on the "best way to raise children", I do feel that we can make some generalizations about dogs.

Another thing I don't like about Cesar (I really don't hate the guy as much as it sounds like I do, ha ha), is his insistence that you must buy into his technique, body and soul. To me, it almost feels culty - if my method is working for you, you must not believe in it enough. That's why I object so much when Cesar gets upset with owners for daring to sit with their dogs or in some cases, just watching out the window!

VS argues with owners too, but it doesn't have the same oppressive feeling to me.

[Nancy1999]

I think a frustration for me is that every time I give a suggestion on a training thread that I learned through Cesar's show, I'm barraged with replies about how awful Cesar is. I had a real problem with Joey when other dogs were visiting and I had to feed them both. Joey became terribly aggressive, and I read another trainer who said feed dogs in separate rooms. So that's what we did, occasionally trying to feed them in the same room, but even a treat or chew toys became problems. I learned from Cesar that establishing yourself as a pack leader is very important, and your dog must learn all food comes through you, and he suggests teaching them to sit and stay before you set the food down, and don't allow them to touch the food until you give the release command. I really didn't think it would work, Joey was a little Mike Tyson, where food was concerned, but I tried it anyway, and the very first time it worked, one trial learning that hardly ever happens! There were no fighting or switching bowls; they each ate from their own bowl. Am I being abusive by doing this? Isn't this better than them being abusive? I also learned from Cesar the difference between a power walk, and a playful walk, I had always taken Joey on playful walks, but I could see how his attitude change on the power walks, he really looked like, took on a different attitude, and seemed serious about doing this job. There are several other things I learned that helped me with Joey, but when I try to share what's helped me, I get all these responses about how Cesar's so abusive and a good pet owner would never use any of his techniques, and dogs aren't pack animals. So then all these other training threads become debate threads, and I'm just trying to share things that worked for Joey.

I think many of you overestimate how much we love Cesar, it's just many of us are grateful to have learned something that works, and his shows are interesting to watch, even if what he's doing doesn't apply to your own dog. I do think the average pet owner should become acquainted with the typical food reward training methods. I applaud you Quicksilver for opening this thread, and I intend to link it every time a training thread gets hijacked.

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Let me try it this way then
Say someone a human you know had a mental break down......
Now where would you go for help.....
A DR. a PHD, MD, Carded Doctor not a quack right.
Not your next door neighbour or the kid on the corner that looked after his dotty auntie for 20 years.
What I am saying is that Ceaser does not have the skill set to work with the dogs he seems to think he can. Some maybe.But the one that was afraid of thunder no. That on the playing level of a human nervous break down not a slick fix up by a quack.
Not when the first thing out the door evertime is pack leader take charge...some of these dogs need to to stop and let them get a grip and take the lead as if you bully they bite.

When playing around with mental health you play go to those carring the full deck of knowledge and you do not start from rough you start at the point a dog in major stress can give you and build not tear down.

JL

Opinions presented as fact such as the one in bolded red above concern and sadden me. Although I don't agree with everything he does, he is very successful and certainly does have the necessary skill set to take care of the problems he tackles. You may not agree with some or all of his methods, but he IS generally successful.

[YorkieMother]

[QUOTE=QuickSilver;2750026]Again, QUOTE]

There are some that have trained for 15 years and still take the dog by the collar and swing it round in the air like a helicoper until it passes out.
Ever read what happened to Emma Parsons dog, Ben. We still do not know the dog trainer on that. Even better when you are in the room at her seminar and she tells you. Glad I missed breakfast that day.

With 7 years in and training and reading and classes, I still have a ton more to learn but I never do what the trainer above did even with less time in.

JL

[Akbritt]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I think a frustration for me is that every time I give a suggestion on a training thread that I learned through Cesar's show, I'm barraged with replies about how awful Cesar is. I had a real problem with Joey when other dogs were visiting and I had to feed them both. Joey became terribly aggressive, and I read another trainer who said feed dogs in separate rooms. So that's what we did, occasionally trying to feed them in the same room, but even a treat or chew toys became problems. I learned from Cesar that establishing yourself as a pack leader is very important, and your dog must learn all food comes through you, and he suggests teaching them to sit and stay before you set the food down, and don't allow them to touch the food until you give the release command. I really didn't think it would work, Joey was a little Mike Tyson, where food was concerned, but I tried it anyway, and the very first time it worked, one trial learning that hardly ever happens! There were no fighting or switching bowls; they each ate from their own bowl. Am I being abusive by doing this? Isn't this better than them being abusive? I also learned from Cesar the difference between a power walk, and a playful walk, I had always taken Joey on playful walks, but I could see how his attitude change on the power walks, he really looked like, took on a different attitude, and seemed serious about doing this job. There are several other things I learned that helped me with Joey, but when I try to share what's helped me, I get all these responses about how Cesar's so abusive and a good pet owner would never use any of his techniques, and dogs aren't pack animals. So then all these other training threads become debate threads, and I'm just trying to share things that worked for Joey.

I think many of you overestimate how much we love Cesar, it's just many of us are grateful to have learned something that works, and his shows are interesting to watch, even if what he's doing doesn't apply to your own dog. I do think the average pet owner should become acquainted with the typical food reward training methods. I applaud you Quicksilver for opening this thread, and I intend to link it every time a training thread gets hijacked.

Ok some one put me in my place!! What is this nonsense that dogs are not pack animals??? Where did this information come from...someone explain it to me....I read that a few pages down on one of YorkieMother's post.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Akbritt

Ok some one put me in my place!! What is this nonsense that dogs are not pack animals??? Where did this information come from...someone explain it to me....I read that a few pages down on one of YorkieMother's post.

Oh I wished you hadn't asked that question.

[QuickSilver]

A lot of people, myself included, do not believe that dogs are all the concerned with rank position. It's a long debate, really, and there are many shades of it. How it applies with Cesar is (in my opinion), he often uses the word "dominant" to describe many different types of dog behaviors, and in many cases, the dog is just doing something because it has never been told not to do it. Anyway.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Opinions presented as fact such as the one in bolded red above concern and sadden me. Although I don't agree with everything he does, he is very successful and certainly does have the necessary skill set to take care of the problems he tackles. You may not agree with some or all of his methods, but he IS generally successful.

Where is the proof.... where is the studies the leg work and the rechecks by someone other then Ceasers staff, that he has any success.
Sure he does just as sure as there are failures. But where is the follow up and the proof in writing and studied. Non... hummm.
No method is 100% full proof and certainly his is less.
Voilence brings violence and not all dogs will respond to his methods.

JL

[YorkieMother]

http://www.ipdta.org/
What is abuse?



Abuse is physical or psychological injury caused by mistreatment

or the misuse of power associated with authority. It is a corrupt practice

or custom, improper or excessive use or treatment. It is a deceitful act,

it is a communication that condemns or vilifies unjustly,

intemperately and angrily.



The IPDTA defines abuse in training and behaviour modification

as the use of any tool or technique that was created or used with the intent to cause harm to a dog including but not limited to; injury, pain, fear, or mistrust, be it physical, psychological, emotional or behavioural.



Those that truly love dogs will not abuse them!!!



The IPDTA believe the following to be potentially abusive;

choke chains, pinch collars, shock equipment, alpha rollovers and other forms of physical punishment and/or domination, hanging, kicking or hitting of any kind, or any other tool or technique that causes fear or pain for the dog.



The IPDTA believe that any use of punishment, force or un-necessary restraint (exceptions such as a leash for safety) is un-necessary and unacceptable

[YorkieMother]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Dominance Theory

By Norma Jeanne Laurette



Let me begin by saying I was taught the “dominance” theory - as it pertains to our pet dog's and their interactions with us, their guardians. Within my first year of instructing dog training classes, I stopped using choke chains, pinch (prong) collars, alpha rolls and all use of force or physical punishment because I quickly realized the potential harm the use of these tools could o to a dog. This potential for harm is not only physical and psychological, it can destroy the trust our dogs have in us, and as a result, the bond between a dog and its owner may be corrupted. Since trust and respect are sides of the same coin, I feel the dog's trust in its owner must be

protected at all cost. Along the same lines, I no longer use the word “obedience” in association with training due to its basic meaning according to The Oxford Dictionary, “submissive to another's will”.


At that point in my career, I didn't realize there were many trainers already using positive methods. I was convinced I was the only one in my city with the beliefs I held, and I felt very much alone. Since then, I have met so many of like-mind, and I've learned so much, and continue to learn everyday. I'm happy to say, my city now consists almost totally of “positive”trainers.


Although I no longer taught the use of tools or techniques that involved pushing or punishing, I did teach the “dominance” theory and the importance of “leading the pack”. Over the past few years this theory has been challenged, and as a result, I renewed my research on the subject. Because of what this research revealed, at this time, I no longer agree with the “dominance” concept. Here's why.



There is a common belief among dog owners and trainers alike, that dogs will challenge their owners in attempt to rise in rank, and lead the pack. This theory has been around for decades, and although still popular, many of the top canine behaviour experts now believe this concept to be incorrect, and assert that we have misinterpreted the dog's motivation by interpreting the dog’s behaviour in that manner.


Dog owners and trainers alike often use the “dominance” theory to explain a variety of canine behaviours. Trainers often use this theory to justify both the use of aversive tools and physical techniques designed to over-power the dog, with the objective of intimidating the dog into subservience in order to stop unwanted “dominant” behaviours. This type of “training” works by virtue of the concept that the dog becomes afraid to “behave” in particular ways for fear of punishment. Unfortunately, this has cost many dogs their lives. “Dominance exercises” have

been known to cause aggression and other unwanted behaviour that result in euthanasia. In one case, a trainer in Florida actually killed a dog while attempting to force it into submission. After muzzling the dog and sitting on it for over an hour, the dog lost consciousness and later that day, had to be euthanized due to its injuries. R10



The concept of “ranking” comes from the idea that a wolf will challenge another of similar rank, hopefully winning the challenge, thereby gaining higher status, and eventually, leading the pack. Many believe this behaviour has been passed down over thousands of years, affecting the behaviour of domestic dogs and their interactions with their human guardians. R1


In reality, only “unacquainted” wolves living in captivity behave in a manner that appears as though they are competing for “status”, due to confined artificially created territories. R7 In my opinion, this is just another example of wolves being forced to compete for limited resources, such as food and mating rights.


Wolf packs living in the wild are dominated by one alpha male and female breeding pair, who guide and protect their cubs. R9 As soon as they are old enough to mate, these cubs will leave the pack to find mates, and raise families of their own. This would mean that every wolf healthy enough, and able to find a mate, will be “alpha” at one time or another during its lifespan, but only when raising its young.



During the socialization period of development, a puppy is imprinted with recognition of its own species. As a result, dogs do not identify humans as “canines” or “pack members”, because we smell, think and behave differently. R2 According to John Fisher, because we are not perceived as dogs by dogs, they will not compete with us for rank. R3 With “alpha” position comes the responsibility of providing for the pack and because we provide everything the dog needs, such

as food, shelter etc., it would be counter-productive for a dog to challenge us for “alpha” position. R4


According to Coppinger, R6 dogs became isolated from their wild ancestors long ago resulting in a new species, the Canis Familiaris - the domestic dog. Although some wolf-like behaviours remain in the domestic dog, since they are a different species, it's not realistic to assume all dog behaviours will be the same as those of the wolf. However, if we choose to compare domestic dogs' behaviour to it's natural ancestors, it only makes sense that we should compare it to the wild

wolf, not wolves attempting to survive in the face of human interference. R5


Every behaviour blamed on “dominance” is normal in canine terms and can be explained by simple motivation and reinforcement. It's quite simple, dogs want good things. R11 If you saw a $100 bill lying in the street would you not pick it up? Why then is a dog helping itself to your dinner “dominant”?, when they are scavengers by nature. It's not a “dominant” dog that takes your food, it's a normal dog doing what comes naturally to its species.


This is what I believe now; one of the few commonalities between dogs and humans is – some are more assertive than others. Dogs that are more assertive will try harder to obtain valued resources, be it attention, food, comfortable sleeping places, freedom to run and explore etc. Dogs that are less assertive are quicker to relinquish the resource to a more assertive dog or human. Since it's about the resource, it stands to reason – if you can control what the dog values, you can control the dog. An assertive dog is more of a challenge to train, but it has nothing to do with dominance.


Although it may seem as though we are “splitting hairs” with terminology, the main difference is this. According to The Oxford Dictionary, “Dominance” means “in control over a group” and “assertive” means “to insist”. An assertive dog is challenging a person or another dog to win resources that it wishes to control, not in order to control the other person or dog; therefore, a dog’s competing for a desired resource has nothing to do with ranking.



The bottom line is this: if we want dogs to behave in a manner that is not natural to it's species then we have to control the environment to prevent the natural - yet unwanted behaviour. In order to do so, we have to teach new behaviours and reinforce them. Although dogs need guidance to be good companions, “dominating” them has proven to be counter-productive at the very least, and extremely abusive at its worst. It's time for us to teach those around us, dog owners and dog trainers alike, to stop blaming, labelling and punishing dogs with a “dominance” tag. When the world becomes aware that it is not only easier, but also more productive, to teach instead of punish, only then will the world be a more humane place for dogs.


References

R1 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 4 – Dominance: Where Does It Come From?

R2 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 4 – Pack Theory

R3 - Diary of a Dotty Dog Doctor, John Fisher 1997

R4 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 5 – Pack Theory

R5 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 7 – Origins Of The Pack Rules

R6 - The Domestic Dog, Edited by James Serpell 1999

R7 - Dominance Fact or Fiction? Barry Eaton 2002, Page 6 and 7 – Origins Of The Pack Rules

R8 - Dominance Fact or Fiction? Barry Eaton 2002, Page 7 – Origins Of The Pack Rules

R9 - Alpha Status, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs, David Mech, 2000

R10 - http://www.palmbeachpost.com/pbcentr...ddog_0719.html

R11 – The Power of Positive Dog Training, Pat Miller, Howell Book House, Wiley Publishing Inc., 2001


International Positive Dog Training Association

[Akbritt]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

A lot of people, myself included, do not believe that dogs are all the concerned with rank position. It's a long debate, really, and there are many shades of it. How it applies with Cesar is (in my opinion), he often uses the word "dominant" to describe many different types of dog behaviors, and in many cases, the dog is just doing something because it has never been told not to do it. Anyway.

Now, is this like a new theory, an old one, is it just an opinion? I've honestly never heard of this before.

[Akbritt]

thank you LJ...ill read that now

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I think a frustration for me is that every time I give a suggestion on a training thread that I learned through Cesar's show, I'm barraged with replies about how awful Cesar is. I had a real problem with Joey when other dogs were visiting and I had to feed them both. Joey became terribly aggressive, and I read another trainer who said feed dogs in separate rooms. So that's what we did, occasionally trying to feed them in the same room, but even a treat or chew toys became problems. I learned from Cesar that establishing yourself as a pack leader is very important, and your dog must learn all food comes through you, and he suggests teaching them to sit and stay before you set the food down, and don't allow them to touch the food until you give the release command. I really didn't think it would work, Joey was a little Mike Tyson, where food was concerned, but I tried it anyway, and the very first time it worked, one trial learning that hardly ever happens! There were no fighting or switching bowls; they each ate from their own bowl. Am I being abusive by doing this? Isn't this better than them being abusive? I also learned from Cesar the difference between a power walk, and a playful walk, I had always taken Joey on playful walks, but I could see how his attitude change on the power walks, he really looked like, took on a different attitude, and seemed serious about doing this job. There are several other things I learned that helped me with Joey, but when I try to share what's helped me, I get all these responses about how Cesar's so abusive and a good pet owner would never use any of his techniques, and dogs aren't pack animals. So then all these other training threads become debate threads, and I'm just trying to share things that worked for Joey.

I think many of you overestimate how much we love Cesar, it's just many of us are grateful to have learned something that works, and his shows are interesting to watch, even if what he's doing doesn't apply to your own dog. I do think the average pet owner should become acquainted with the typical food reward training methods. I applaud you Quicksilver for opening this thread, and I intend to link it every time a training thread gets hijacked.

Nancy, I understand completely about Joey and his food aggression. I dealt with the same problem with a 1200 lb. quarter horse stallion . Although the specific methods were different, I taught GW that I was the boss and he had to "earn" his dinner. It was all very simple. I went into his paddock with the feed bucket and when he threw back his ears I charged him (meaning I ran in his direction from about 10 feet away screaming like a mad woman). Although he was not afraid he was alarmed and he backed up. I put his food in his bucket, gave him a pat on the neck and left. Next day same thing, day after he didn't lay his ears back, day after that he backed away from his food bucket. Now when I go to feed him I wiggle my pointer finger and he backs up until I tell him to stop. He stands while I empty the food into his bucket and signal him to come forward. His release signal to eat is to place his muzzle in the palm of my outstretched hand.

I generally combine thought processes from many trainers to come up with specific training methods. We all need to be "thinking trainers".