Next best thing to Cesar Milan in Phoenix!!!

[YorkieMother]

We sure agree to disagree.
But it still be a good idea for you to look into other methods of training that do not use the concept of pack order.

Jl

[T Doll]

Originally Posted by Lcarp

It was so fulfilling to help April balance her beloved Tucker to make both of their lives more satisfying and happy. Babs. my partner, is a "dog whisperer" and has helped just about every breed and age dog and its family live better lives.

B&L Dog Training offers psychological training, teaching you as owners how to be the pack leader. Every dog sees itself as a member of the pack, in most cases, his human family. Most dogs are really not cut out for the job and get unbalanced, sometimes seem neurotic or compulsive about things , because they try to take the role of pack leader. Once you learn how to establish yourself as the leader with calm assertive energy and learn how to properly walk and manage your dog, who is now calm and submissive, it is amazing how quickly a dog's mind can be made to move forward and old habits die quickly. Dogs live in the moment and so we do that as well as we interact with them.

Specific techniques we use include teaching the proper way to walk your dog, claiming your space, and how to establish yourself as "Pack Leader"

I wish you were in Canada! Mocha is a great dog, but his barking really scares people/strangers sometimes. He'll often do a bark/growl at strangers. This usually happens when I have him on the ground. If I'm holding him in my arms, he'll be calm and quiet. But when I put on him the ground, he'll start barking and growling at people passing by. He's only 3lbs but he has the bark of a 100lbs verocious dog

Do you have any quick tips that could possibly help with this? I took him to obedience school when he was 6 months old, but I didn't find it to be all that great. I actually think that's where he learned to start barking! He used to be quiet as a mouse, but all the dogs in the class would bark non-stop and he started picking it up very quickly. I would like to get him a trainer, but I don't really know what to look for in a good trainer. How do I know if they'll be successful with my dog?

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by T Doll

I wish you were in Canada! Mocha is a great dog, but his barking really scares people/strangers sometimes. He'll often do a bark/growl at strangers. This usually happens when I have him on the ground. If I'm holding him in my arms, he'll be calm and quiet. But when I put on him the ground, he'll start barking and growling at people passing by. He's only 3lbs but he has the bark of a 100lbs verocious dog

Do you have any quick tips that could possibly help with this? I took him to obedience school when he was 6 months old, but I didn't find it to be all that great. I actually think that's where he learned to start barking! He used to be quiet as a mouse, but all the dogs in the class would bark non-stop and he started picking it up very quickly. I would like to get him a trainer, but I don't really know what to look for in a good trainer. How do I know if they'll be successful with my dog?

I am not sure where in Ontario you are but let me give you a link to Norma Jeanne Laurette at Puppy Power http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/new...eply&p=2728765

Give this lady a call and if you are not close to her to go us her skills she should be able to get you someone close. I also use or have used Carrie but she seems to be on a break for a short time K9 Fear Be Gone - Home

JL

[Lcarp]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

We sure agree to disagree.
But it still be a good idea for you to look into other methods of training that do not use the concept of pack order.

Jl

The video you posted did not at all say that there is no pack leader - it merely disagreed with the term "alpha"for the leader of the pack. He still talked about dominance in the pack, and that they do live as a pack -even if that pack is their mate and puppies. I am not sure if your are interpreting
my post incorrectly. This video really confirms what I wrote and our psychological training teaching humans to be the 'pack leader' rather than denying it.

[Lcarp]

Originally Posted by T Doll

I wish you were in Canada! Mocha is a great dog, but his barking really scares people/strangers sometimes. He'll often do a bark/growl at strangers. This usually happens when I have him on the ground. If I'm holding him in my arms, he'll be calm and quiet. But when I put on him the ground, he'll start barking and growling at people passing by. He's only 3lbs but he has the bark of a 100lbs verocious dog

Do you have any quick tips that could possibly help with this? I took him to obedience school when he was 6 months old, but I didn't find it to be all that great. I actually think that's where he learned to start barking! He used to be quiet as a mouse, but all the dogs in the class would bark non-stop and he started picking it up very quickly. I would like to get him a trainer, but I don't really know what to look for in a good trainer. How do I know if they'll be successful with my dog?

From B&L Dog training
One of the first tips and direction that we give to dog owners is to make sure they are walking their dog correctly A dog should be right by your side- not dragging you . To make corrections if your dog is not just by your side "in the zone" so to speak, we ask people to place a choker or even just a regular leash wrapped through itself around the dog's neck, very high up by its ears. As the dog walks and begins to pull you or bark at things, use your arm to pull up on the leash, quickly , then releasing it, until the dog is walking at your pace by your side. This changes how the dog is thinking and begins to establish you as the pack leader. If the short quick correction, then releasing and relaxing your arm does not work, you can do a quick tap to the dog's flank with your heel, from behind. Your dog does not even know where it came from- its not punishment but a way to change the dog's thinking and attention. We also teach using a verbal cue- a loud shhhhhhhh sound at the same time as the correction. It is never a punishment or in any way hurts the dog, it is a re direction of the dog's energy and attention. You will find your dog looking to you for the next direction. Walking your dog a half hour a day, like this, begins the transition. During this working time, do not let the dog smell anything or relieve itself or have any other distraction. Its job is to walk by your side, without pulling or running in front ( which shows they are dominant) You will often be amazed at how tired they are because they are working, using their brains, moving forward from bad habits. As you finish with the training session on the walk, you can tell them 'at ease' and then let them smell around and relieve themselves before ending the walk. Rule in and out of the house, human is always first. Establishing yourself as the pack leader by walking your dog as the pack leader is the first step to rehabilitation.

[bebeyorkie]

Originally Posted by Lcarp

It was so fulfilling to help April balance her beloved Tucker to make both of their lives more satisfying and happy. Babs. my partner, is a "dog whisperer" and has helped just about every breed and age dog and its family live better lives.

B&L Dog Training offers psychological training, teaching you as owners how to be the pack leader. Every dog sees itself as a member of the pack, in most cases, his human family. Most dogs are really not cut out for the job and get unbalanced, sometimes seem neurotic or compulsive about things , because they try to take the role of pack leader. Once you learn how to establish yourself as the leader with calm assertive energy and learn how to properly walk and manage your dog, who is now calm and submissive, it is amazing how quickly a dog's mind can be made to move forward and old habits die quickly. Dogs live in the moment and so we do that as well as we interact with them.

Specific techniques we use include teaching the proper way to walk your dog, claiming your space, and how to establish yourself as "Pack Leader"

I've used these techniques and people are always surprised at how well I can control 5 yorkies They really do work.

There's just one that's been a challenge for me but she belongs to my daughter so I don't really get to work with her much.

[livingdustmops]

Sorry but I cannot agree with your training methods as you have written and enough behaviorists also do not agree with this type of training. Positive reinforcement takes longer but makes for a much better relationship with your dog. I find that people who will take shortcuts can really be harming their dogs....all any members on YT have to look at is Alaska Mike and Eddie (members here)..this is what positive training is all about.

I certainly hope you would not put a choke collar on a Yorkie...you could be causing its death.

To be fair, I would also like to see your website so I can make sure I am understanding your methods.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Lcarp

The video you posted did not at all say that there is no pack leader - it merely disagreed with the term "alpha"for the leader of the pack. He still talked about dominance in the pack, and that they do live as a pack -even if that pack is their mate and puppies. I am not sure if your are interpreting
my post incorrectly. This video really confirms what I wrote and our psychological training teaching humans to be the 'pack leader' rather than denying it.

You and I could go around and around on this all day and week and year.
Fact is as Cindy very much better said that there are all to many truly trained Behaviourist that are out there that do not use your methods and work much slower and repect the animal for it true nature. Have no need to slap on a choke chain that can kill or do long term damage to small throats.

As to Dr Mech he only talks about domince in a pack that is not funtioning the right way as in Yellowstone. You may want to track down his whole article.

I add not only Eddie and Mike train from postive but so do I and have had great success with a few tough breeds as have a number of my associates.

You may want to pop over to Karen Pryors web site and have a look see.
Or you tube search Miranda Bourque have a look at hands off stuff. Tougher but a lot more fun and training should be fun even in aggression work.

JL

[tjdmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Finally a wolf is not a dog and a dog is not a wolf. Looking to them to raise and work with our dogs makes as much sence as I am a related to a great ape therefore I must raise my human childern in the way they do. WE are genetically closer to an ape then a dog is to a wolf. We need to focus on the dog as it is not an unreal picture warped by wrongly understood scince and forgoing anything that is new as it always been done the alpha way.
JL

Just want to point out that you are incorrect here. Humans and apes could not procreate. Dogs dna has changed very little from their wolf counterparts since we have domesticated them and could breed and procreate if the opportunity presented itself.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by tjdmom

Just want to point out that you are incorrect here. Humans and apes could not procreate. Dogs dna has changed very little from their wolf counterparts since we have domesticated them and could breed and procreate if the opportunity presented itself.

[aquinn]

Just wanted to say that these trainers were very willing to show me how to use the same walking technique with Tucker using a harness, as I was not comfortable using a collar to walk him.

I will also say that the best part about the training was the opportunity to learn a bit more about Tucker. When we went to the dog park they were able to teach me how to recognize signs of aggression in others dogs, how to handle the situation of an aggressive dog approaching me and Tucker, and also learned that Tucker isn't actually aggressive at all, but instead avoident. These were very important lessons I think.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by tjdmom

Just want to point out that you are incorrect here. Humans and apes could not procreate. Dogs dna has changed very little from their wolf counterparts since we have domesticated them and could breed and procreate if the opportunity presented itself.

Well actually I am right unless what I have read is a miss print but Dogs and wolves are 99% a like in DNA and Humans and gorillas are 99.4% so doing the math that makes us a whole.4% closer.

As for us domesticaing wolves we do not again you need to look at just how impossible it is to do even now with the tecnology we have to "tame" wolves. It is not do able. They are always wild and will turn on a dime and need to be handled in a differnt manner then a dog. Foxes are another story all together.

Origin of the domestic dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Below from the link above.
""The Promise of Food/Self Domestication: Early wolves would, as scavengers, be attracted to the bones and refuse dumps of human campsites. Dr. Raymond Coppinger of Hampshire College (Massachusetts) argues[7] that those wolves that were more successful at interacting with humans would pass these traits onto their offspring, eventually creating wolves with a greater propensity to be domesticated. The "most social and least fearful" dogs were the ones who were kept around the human living areas, helping to breed those traits that are still recognized in dogs today.[5] Coppinger believes that a behavioral characteristic called "flight distance" was crucial to the transformation from wild wolf to the ancestors of the modern dog. It represents how close an animal will allow humans (or anything else it perceives as dangerous) to get before it runs away. Animals with shorter flight distances will linger, and feed, when humans are close by; this behavioral trait would have been passed on to successive generations, and amplified, creating animals that are increasingly more comfortable around humans. "My argument is that what domesticated—or tame—means is to be able to eat in the presence of human beings. That is the thing that wild wolves can't do."[8] Furthermore, selection for domesticity had the side effect of selecting genetically related physical characteristics, and behavior such as barking. Hypothetically, wolves separated into two populations – the village-oriented scavengers and the packs of hunters. The next steps have not been defined, but selective pressure must have been present to sustain the divergence of these populations. ""

In closing:
As for if we can or can not breed with a gorilla to my current knowledge reseach sciencists do to ethical rules can not and may I make it clear should not try. But it is unclear if it is not possible it is only speculation do to ethical and moral restraint and the yuck factor that there is not going to be an attempted.
Gorllias that are in the wild and are part of reseach and even the ones we can visit are no longer allowed to be touched or get to close to as we as humans can pass on our deadly illnesses and that is as we are so genetically close. So there for we do not know in actually fact that gorillas and humans as you stated can not procreate only that we have a moral and ethical resposibility not to even go there. What would we do with the offspring? that is why it not ok to try that cringe when you read it.

As for the crossing of wolves and dogs that would make the blend more wolf and wild than dommestic and therefore not trust worthy.


JL

[tjdmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Well actually I am right unless what I have read is a miss print but Dogs and wolves are 99% a like in DNA and Humans and gorillas are 99.4% so doing the math that makes us a whole.4% closer.
In closing:
As for if we can or can not breed with a gorilla to my current knowledge reseach sciencists do to ethical rules can not and may I make it clear should not try. But it is unclear if it is not possible it is only speculation do to ethical and moral restraint and the yuck factor that there is not going to be an attempted.
Gorllias that are in the wild and are part of reseach and even the ones we can visit are no longer allowed to be touched or get to close to as we as humans can pass on our deadly illnesses and that is as we are so genetically close. So there for we do not know in actually fact that gorillas and humans as you stated can not procreate only that we have a moral and ethical resposibility not to even go there. What would we do with the offspring? that is why it not ok to try that cringe when you read it.

As for the crossing of wolves and dogs that would make the blend more wolf and wild than dommestic and therefore not trust worthy.


JL

I'm sorry. First off you have alot of misinformation. Dogs and gray wolves share 99.8% of their mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA), suggesting an intact maternal lineage from gray wolves directly to dogs. They are the same species with some simple phenotypic differences that amazingly start returning to more wolf-like characteristics with very few generations of
outcrossing/mixing of breeds.
We don’t, in fact share 98.6% of our DNA with chimps; we share about 96% or less. We do share 98.6% of our nucleotide sequence. There is a BIG difference. Humans have 23 pair of chromosomes, chimps(and other apes) have 24 pair of chromosomes - off spring would not be viable. No how, no way.
here are some links if you'd like to check my facts;

Chimps, Humans 96 Percent the Same, Gene Study Finds

Humans, Chimps Not as Closely Related as Thought?

genome.gov | 2005 Release: New Genome Comparison Finds Chimps, Humans Very Similar at DNA Level

WikiAnswers - Is human DNA and chimpanzee DNA 98 percent identical

Furthermore, I just want to say that this irks me a bit. While I myself have been researching some alternative training methods, someone posted this thread as she had success and asked the trainers to come on here and share with us all. I just think it's a bit rude to attack them. I don't think they are abusing any of these animals and if you have a better training method, I think we'd all like to hear all about it but I just think it's a bit rude to take over someone else's thread.
Sorry, maybe I'm just cranky tonight.....

[chachi]

Originally Posted by tjdmom

I'm sorry. First off you have alot of misinformation. Dogs and gray wolves share 99.8% of their mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA), suggesting an intact maternal lineage from gray wolves directly to dogs. They are the same species with some simple phenotypic differences that amazingly start returning to more wolf-like characteristics with very few generations of
outcrossing/mixing of breeds.
We don’t, in fact share 98.6% of our DNA with chimps; we share about 96% or less. We do share 98.6% of our nucleotide sequence. There is a BIG difference. Humans have 23 pair of chromosomes, chimps(and other apes) have 24 pair of chromosomes - off spring would not be viable. No how, no way.
here are some links if you'd like to check my facts;

Chimps, Humans 96 Percent the Same, Gene Study Finds

Humans, Chimps Not as Closely Related as Thought?

genome.gov | 2005 Release: New Genome Comparison Finds Chimps, Humans Very Similar at DNA Level

WikiAnswers - Is human DNA and chimpanzee DNA 98 percent identical

Furthermore, I just want to say that this irks me a bit. While I myself have been researching some alternative training methods, someone posted this thread as she had success and asked the trainers to come on here and share with us all. I just think it's a bit rude to attack them. I don't think they are abusing any of these animals and if you have a better training method, I think we'd all like to hear all about it but I just think it's a bit rude to take over someone else's thread.
Sorry, maybe I'm just cranky tonight.....

I agree 100% and have seen this again and again with this poster and some others that think they are experts in a subject and their arent any room for any opinions that vary from their own. When a poster asks for an opinion they are wanting varring responses of whats worked for people. They can then take the info and see what works for them. No need to knock down someone elses training methods as their are many different methods that work for different people

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by chachi

I agree 100% and have seen this again and again with this poster and some others that think they are experts in a subject and their arent any room for any opinions that vary from their own. When a poster asks for an opinion they are wanting varring responses of whats worked for people. They can then take the info and see what works for them. No need to knock down someone elses training methods as their are many different methods that work for different people

Since I believe this was directed to me also I will once again post information that I posted before that few people even responded to. I have studied (I am not a trainer) because of rescue and the many issues I saw I have read over 20/30 books and numerous articles about training and especially about fear aggression in our dogs. I believe, like Joy, that a lot of harm can come to a dog if trained incorrectly. I have also posted articles where many animal group are against the training Cesar does (I do have all his books/DVD's) and came to this conclusion myself after working with Yorkies. I am sorry if you disagree but I know it wasn't that long ago that spanking/beating was the preferred method of training children and now we know this is wrong.

Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

Science News Share Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat
ScienceDaily (May 25, 2009) — A new study shows how the behaviour of dogs has been misunderstood for generations: in fact using misplaced ideas about dog behaviour and training is likely to cause rather than cure unwanted behaviour. The findings challenge many of the dominance related interpretations of behaviour and training techniques suggested by current TV dog trainers.


Contrary to popular belief, aggressive dogs are NOT trying to assert their dominance over their canine or human “pack”, according to research published by academics at the University of Bristol’s Department of Clinical Veterinary Sciences in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research.

The researchers spent six months studying dogs freely interacting at a Dogs Trust rehoming centre, and reanalysing data from studies of feral dogs, before concluding that individual relationships between dogs are learnt through experience rather than motivated by a desire to assert “dominance”.

The study shows that dogs are not motivated by maintaining their place in the pecking order of their pack, as many well-known dog trainers preach.

Far from being helpful, the academics say, training approaches aimed at “dominance reduction” vary from being worthless in treatment to being actually dangerous and likely to make behaviours worse.

Instructing owners to eat before their dog or go through doors first will not influence the dog’s overall perception of the relationship – merely teach them what to expect in these specific situations. Much worse, techniques such as pinning the dog to the floor, grabbing jowls, or blasting hooters at dogs will make dogs anxious, often about their owner, and potentially lead to an escalation of aggression.

Dr Rachel Casey, Senior Lecturer in Companion Animal Behaviour and Welfare at Bristol University, said: “The blanket assumption that every dog is motivated by some innate desire to control people and other dogs is frankly ridiculous. It hugely underestimates the complex communicative and learning abilities of dogs. It also leads to the use of coercive training techniques, which compromise welfare, and actually cause problem behaviours.

“In our referral clinic we very often see dogs which have learnt to show aggression to avoid anticipated punishment. Owners are often horrified when we explain that their dog is terrified of them, and is showing aggression because of the techniques they have used – but its not their fault when they have been advised to do so, or watched unqualified ‘behaviourists’ recommending such techniques on TV.”

At Dogs Trust, the UK’s largest dog welfare charity, rehoming centre staff see the results of misguided dog training all the time. Veterinary Director Chris Laurence MBE, added: “We can tell when a dog comes in to us which has been subjected to the ‘dominance reduction technique’ so beloved of TV dog trainers. They can be very fearful, which can lead to aggression towards people.

“Sadly, many techniques used to teach a dog that his owner is leader of the pack is counter-productive; you won’t get a better behaved dog, but you will either end up with a dog so fearful it has suppressed all its natural behaviours and will just do nothing, or one so aggressive it’s dangerous to be around.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Journal reference:

John W.S., Bradshaw , Emily J., Blackwell , Rachel A., Casey. Dominance in domestic dogs -- useful construct or bad habit? Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research, May/June 2009, Pages 135-144 [link]
Adapted from materials provided by University of Bristol.