Next best thing to Cesar Milan in Phoenix!!!

[chachi]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Since I believe this was directed to me also I will once again post information that I posted before that few people even responded to. I have studied (I am not a trainer) because of rescue and the many issues I saw I have read over 20/30 books and numerous articles about training and especially about fear aggression in our dogs. I believe, like Joy, that a lot of harm can come to a dog if trained incorrectly. I have also posted articles where many animal group are against the training Cesar does (I do have all his books/DVD's) and came to this conclusion myself after working with Yorkies. I am sorry if you disagree but I know it wasn't that long ago that spanking/beating was the preferred method of training children and now we know this is wrong.

Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

Science News Share Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat
ScienceDaily (May 25, 2009) — A new study shows how the behaviour of dogs has been misunderstood for generations: in fact using misplaced ideas about dog behaviour and training is likely to cause rather than cure unwanted behaviour. The findings challenge many of the dominance related interpretations of behaviour and training techniques suggested by current TV dog trainers.


Contrary to popular belief, aggressive dogs are NOT trying to assert their dominance over their canine or human “pack”, according to research published by academics at the University of Bristol’s Department of Clinical Veterinary Sciences in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research.

The researchers spent six months studying dogs freely interacting at a Dogs Trust rehoming centre, and reanalysing data from studies of feral dogs, before concluding that individual relationships between dogs are learnt through experience rather than motivated by a desire to assert “dominance”.

The study shows that dogs are not motivated by maintaining their place in the pecking order of their pack, as many well-known dog trainers preach.

Far from being helpful, the academics say, training approaches aimed at “dominance reduction” vary from being worthless in treatment to being actually dangerous and likely to make behaviours worse.

Instructing owners to eat before their dog or go through doors first will not influence the dog’s overall perception of the relationship – merely teach them what to expect in these specific situations. Much worse, techniques such as pinning the dog to the floor, grabbing jowls, or blasting hooters at dogs will make dogs anxious, often about their owner, and potentially lead to an escalation of aggression.

Dr Rachel Casey, Senior Lecturer in Companion Animal Behaviour and Welfare at Bristol University, said: “The blanket assumption that every dog is motivated by some innate desire to control people and other dogs is frankly ridiculous. It hugely underestimates the complex communicative and learning abilities of dogs. It also leads to the use of coercive training techniques, which compromise welfare, and actually cause problem behaviours.

“In our referral clinic we very often see dogs which have learnt to show aggression to avoid anticipated punishment. Owners are often horrified when we explain that their dog is terrified of them, and is showing aggression because of the techniques they have used – but its not their fault when they have been advised to do so, or watched unqualified ‘behaviourists’ recommending such techniques on TV.”

At Dogs Trust, the UK’s largest dog welfare charity, rehoming centre staff see the results of misguided dog training all the time. Veterinary Director Chris Laurence MBE, added: “We can tell when a dog comes in to us which has been subjected to the ‘dominance reduction technique’ so beloved of TV dog trainers. They can be very fearful, which can lead to aggression towards people.

“Sadly, many techniques used to teach a dog that his owner is leader of the pack is counter-productive; you won’t get a better behaved dog, but you will either end up with a dog so fearful it has suppressed all its natural behaviours and will just do nothing, or one so aggressive it’s dangerous to be around.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Journal reference:

John W.S., Bradshaw , Emily J., Blackwell , Rachel A., Casey. Dominance in domestic dogs -- useful construct or bad habit? Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research, May/June 2009, Pages 135-144 [link]
Adapted from materials provided by University of Bristol.

It wasnt directed at you but just like their are articles that it doesnt work their are other articles that it does work also people who like me have had success using it. I just think there is room for all opinions and thats what this forum is about

[tjdmom]

Originally Posted by chachi

It wasnt directed at you but just like their are articles that it doesnt work their are other articles that it does work also people who like me have had success using it. I just think there is room for all opinions and thats what this forum is about

I agree. I see some people putting down Ceasers work but I haven't seen any concrete evidence that anything else works better. I would love to see a video of someone showing how to train their dogs another way. I am opened minded about it. I even belong to an alternative training group and I'm trying to learn more about it. But I also do alot of the things Ceaser advocates, I walk out the door before my dogs, I eat before them but I don't pin them on the ground or blow loud horn either. Alot of people have had success using Ceaser's methods. If anyone has had success using other methods, please explain how (maybe even post a youtube video) I for one would love to hear and see it. But if the original poster and the trainer they recommends has advice, I am open to hearing that as well.....

[chachi]

Originally Posted by tjdmom

I agree. I see some people putting down Ceasers work but I haven't seen any concrete evidence that anything else works better. I would love to see a video of someone showing how to train their dogs another way. I am opened minded about it. I even belong to an alternative training group and I'm trying to learn more about it. But I also do alot of the things Ceaser advocates, I walk out the door before my dogs, I eat before them but I don't pin them on the ground or blow loud horn either. Alot of people have had success using Ceaser's methods. If anyone has had success using other methods, please explain how (maybe even post a youtube video) I for one would love to hear and see it. But if the original poster and the trainer they recommends has advice, I am open to hearing that as well.....

Tamar gellar is a good trainer to learn from too. I saw her first on Oprah she trained Oprahs dogs. So I got her book "The loved dog" and I use some of her techniques also

[mickey3696]

I have been reading this post from the start and was not going to post but....

Again Just because you do not agree with something does not make it WRONG!! We all have ways of doing things and not everyone is going to agree with how you do something. What gives anyone the right to say thats not the right way. Some ways are better than others BUT what works for one may not work for others!!! I feel that if you do not agree with someones post you should either make your own or hold your fingers. They OP was trying to say she had good luck with this way of training. If you do not agree just dont use the techniques!! You have that right but we also have the right to learn and decide for ourself rather we want to use the techniques.

[aquinn]

All I can say is that this thread turned ugly, and I don't see why that was necessary. I feel that if others feel there are other, better training methods or trainers, they should post a thread about that, and members of yorkie talk can read that thread and respond to that thread. And also read this thread, and then weigh what they think from seeing both of them.

There are always going to be people who disagree with things, but I feel it is far more respectful to offer alternatives and state the advantages of their alternative rather than attempting to tear down someone else's method. If that's all that is done, where does that leave the readers?

I'm certainly open to different training methods, but just because you don't agree with one doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just may not work for your dogs or dogs you've studied. I still feel it's useful to throw it out there as an option. The only way anyone will ever know what works for their dog is to try something and judge the results themselves. Just my piece . . .

[chachi]

Originally Posted by aquinn

I'm certainly open to different training methods, but just because you don't agree with one doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just may not work for your dogs or dogs you've studied. I still feel it's useful to throw it out there as an option. The only way anyone will ever know what works for their dog is to try something and judge the results themselves. Just my piece . . .

I agree and you said it much better than I did

[Britster]

Highly agree with Chachi, aquinn and tjdmom and mickey.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by chachi

I agree 100% and have seen this again and again with this poster and some others that think they are experts in a subject and their arent any room for any opinions that vary from their own. When a poster asks for an opinion they are wanting varring responses of whats worked for people. They can then take the info and see what works for them. No need to knock down someone elses training methods as their are many different methods that work for different people

Excellent post, I feel like the training forum is essentially useless anymore, no help is given and people are bullied into to believing their methods are wrong. What some of you Cesar haters do not get, is there is a difference between dominance and assertiveness. Some of you, who hate him, have never even seen his program, but just heard about him. You need to understand he isn't pushing dominance, he's pushing assertiveness, and until you understand the difference, all the arguments against him seem so pointless. Many of us want to find what works, but I don't believe in bullying my dogs, or Yorkietalk members either, for that matter.

[QuickSilver]

I think I see where some of the Cesar hate comes from. I've posted before on things I like and don't like abut him. I do think it is frustrating for many trainers because there has been SO much excellent work done in the past thirty years on animal training, and Cesar is training like someone from the 60s. I think many trainers feel that he sets back the entire practice.

Since people have asked about other trainers: the best example of course is Karen Pryor, mother of the clicker movement. There are tons and tons of great examples of clicker training on the web, and she's written several excellent books. No matter what your training philosophy, there is NO BETTER way to teach your dog a complex trick (eg, painting a picture).

I have also been turned onto Brenda Aloff, who I'd describe as between Cesar and Karen Pryor. She does not subscribe to dominance training, but she does not use completely "postive" methods either.

Here is a list of books on animal behavior that I love:

* Amazon.com: Canine Body Language: A Photographic...
* Amazon.com: On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming...
* Amazon.com: Don't Shoot the Dog!: The New Art of...
* Amazon.com: Animals Make Us Human: Creating the...

[QuickSilver]

I am glad that the training program aquinn described worked for Tucker, that is what is important. I do think it's really important to keep an open mind to training methods. No sense in shouting dogma at someone.

At the same time, it does distress me to hear people advocating the high choke hold type of collar to teach dogs to walk properly, particularly on a yorkie! It is totally unecessary to use that kind of collar on any dog, it DOES hurt them, there are many other types of harnesses that are effective, many other ways to teach a dog to walk well, and it indicates that the trainers do not know about the delicate tracheas of small dogs. This sounds like a learning opportunity for for these trainers!

[QuickSilver]

And of course, there is "It's Me or the Dog" with the divine Victoria Stilwell.

[chachi]

Who said they used a choker hold collar because I didnt see it. Caesar doesnt advocate that at least not on the shows Ive seen. This training section used to be filled with advice from lots of different people about what worked for them in training. Now the same few people post answers in it because I believe most people are afraid they are going to get flamed by someone who doesnt agree with their training method. I know thats why I quit posting here

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by aquinn

Just wanted to say that these trainers were very willing to show me how to use the same walking technique with Tucker using a harness, as I was not comfortable using a collar to walk him.

I will also say that the best part about the training was the opportunity to learn a bit more about Tucker. When we went to the dog park they were able to teach me how to recognize signs of aggression in others dogs, how to handle the situation of an aggressive dog approaching me and Tucker, and also learned that Tucker isn't actually aggressive at all, but instead avoident. These were very important lessons I think.

I also want to say (and then I will stop, I promise) that learning to read dog body language is really, really helpful with problem behavior. For people who are tired of debating about training philosophies, this will give you a whole new perspective on your dog, and it's not controversial.

[QuickSilver]

One of the posts on page 2 describes the high collar method that Cesar uses on all of his dogs, and even wrapping your leash around the dog's neck to get the same effect. I do happen to think this is a very bad idea. However, aquinn also said that they taught her how to use the techniques with a harness. Still, keeping an open mind goes both ways here. I do think Cesar does use outdated training techniques, and I think he and his admirers should look to new methods.

As for whether the training forum is helpful, from what I can see, most people post here asking about potty training. I know this particular debate gets heated, but hey, the Health forum has arguments about dog food and vaccinations. There will always be some controversial topics. I love learning about training and would be thrilled if this section got more traffic.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by chachi

Who said they used a choker hold collar because I didnt see it. Caesar doesnt advocate that at least not on the shows Ive seen. This training section used to be filled with advice from lots of different people about what worked for them in training. Now the same few people post answers in it because I believe they are afraid they are going to get flamed by someone who doesnt agree with their training method. I know thats why I quit posting here

i'm getting tired of the same few people pushing their views and OPINIONS on other people here. I started out reading this thread as a nice review on a trainer and what worked for them and was happy to see that the trainer themselves actually came on here to post as well. well that was quickly ruined.

i was going to post on here a few times but erased it and moved on. I kept seeing this thread pop up and i just couldn't help myself anymore.

the comments were very rude to the OP and trainer who nicely came on here to talk about what worked for aquinn and tucker. why can't people just be happy that someone found a great trainer that really helped them work for a better relationship with their dog?