Help: New Puppy Aggressive towards 18 month 2lb Yorkie - YorkieTalk.com Forums

broodizt · 09-06-2008, 07:41 AM

Hi all,

I just got a 4 month old tiny puppy. She is about 1.2lbs, so she is small, about half the size of my almost 18 month old. My problem is she keeps charging at my poor little girl, seems to nip and try to bite her, steals her toys.....and she is half the size. My older girl seems lost, and hesitant to stand up for her rights. She seems afraid to set limits and ends up being abused by the puppy. The puppy charges at her like a bull and then rams into her, jumps on her and sometimes even tries to bite her. She just seems so lost, so depressed. I wonder am I supposed to stop these shenanegans? Or allow them to work it out themselves? Both of them are very very small. my older one is only between 2 and 2.5 lbs. She seems so depressed, I'm almost thinking of selling the puppy because my older one seems to be having such a bad reaction. Should I step in and stop the puppy from jumping on the older one? How should I handle this my first time as the parent of two puppy dogs. I don't know how to handle this. Any help would be greatly appreciated. By the way, the puppy is the cutest thing. Very rambunctious and full of energy and cute as pie. But I dont want my older girl to be depressed or abused. She is the love of my life. Help!!!! Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Shellie :-)

broodizt · 09-06-2008, 08:19 PM

Anybody out there? I really need help in handling this kind of behavior. I've never had two dogs before, and therefore I'm kind of dumb when it comes to knowing what to do about this. I really can't tell if the puppy if trying to assert her dominance over Cassie or if she is just playing. I can't tell the difference and therefore don't know when or if- I should step in to break it up. Should I allow her to keep ramming herself into Cassie? Should I try to protect Cassie? What is best for both of them? Somebody, please answer. I need your help.
TIA Shellie :-)

bellasmomok · 09-06-2008, 08:45 PM

Ok, I only have one puppy, so I can only tell you what I would do if I were in your situation. Someone else may have better advice, but this is how I think I would handle the situation given everything I've read and understand about pups.

We (the parents) are supposed to be the pack leader. Your puppy is being both a rambunctious puppy but also is probably testing the water at taking over the "top dog" role. Since your 2 year old isn't taking up for herself, the puppy will probably keep on doing it. I would say that now, as the pack leader, it's time for you to step in. When my puppy (4 1/2 mo. old) is playing with me, I have to give her boundaries. She bites too hard and licks me on the mouth, etc... I have to let her know what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. I give her a stern "No, ma'am!" and then turn my back on her. Maybe you could give her the "No!" when she's being too rough with your 2 yr. old and then pick up your 2 yr. old, turn away from her, and totally ignore her for a minute or 2, not even looking at her. She won't like being ignored, and I think eventually she'll understand, "If I play nice, Mom and Sis will keep playing with me, but if I'm too rough, they won't." It does seem to work pretty well. At least that's a good starting point. I really think if you do that for awhile, she'll get the idea. I think it's really good that you gave your 2 yr. old a chance to take charge for herself, but since she hasn't, I think it's your job to do it now. You're the pack leader!! Good luck! I hope that helps!

bellasmomok · 09-06-2008, 08:53 PM

P.S. I understand what you're saying about not knowing if you should step in or not, but I think you'll know when. Let them play, but if it's obviously too rough and your 2 yr. old is obviously not having fun, then you'll know it's time. Keep the peace and give your baby boundaries without completely inhibiting her, if that makes any sense. You do have to let her be a puppy, somewhat...but she doesn't have to be a holy terror!

RONLYNN · 09-06-2008, 09:31 PM

My yorkie runs up and bites the feet of my older Standard Poodle to try to get her to play with her and the trainer told me I need to stop her from doing that because the yorkie needs to learn that she can't do that whenever she wants. He also said when I am eating I need to make her stay about a foot or 2 away from me and not let her sit at my feet....they need to learn boundries. Hope this helps.

broodizt · 09-06-2008, 09:49 PM

Thank you both so much for your advice. I just wrote a long winded (LOL) reply and Thank You to Bellasmomok, but I keep getting signed out of the website. Then when I signed back in, it wasn't there. Anyone else having this problem? :-) Shellie

Perroamor · 09-06-2008, 11:56 PM

Puppies need discipline actually they want it. If we were never taught things how would we know what is acceptable and what is not. Dogs that exhibit behaviors that are unacceptable must know that they are not to do that. You as the pack leader must step in being calm and assertive and create the harmony that your other furbaby has been use to living in. I have found that redirecting my puppies keep them out of trouble. Training them to play is fun, you have to snap her mind out of the behaviors unacceptable and into another zone. By just picking the calm puppy up and not giving discipline to the new puppy sends a message Hey look I am the big one she is not going to do anything. I always remember I am the pack leader..Good luck..

YorkieMother · 09-07-2008, 07:24 AM

First yes they do want rules and they love to know what they can and can not do but all behaviour is just that behaviour they are not out to take over or lead they just do what they do naturally.
It may be unacceptable to us but is normal to them so discipline them for what they bring to the table is not a good idea. To them they know no better until we teach them what we expect of them so redirect and coaching is way better then pack leader as dogs in the wild do not run in packs.
They run in ones or twos tjat join up and walk away from each other as the need and avaliable supplies are, are not there.
They do not form family groups like wolves as the supply of resoucrs does not allow that at all.

What one sees at a dump site of waste is small one and twos coming into contact with other ones and twos and fighting over limited resouces not a pack fighting and doing dominace or not.

We have to understand thees guys come from a whole differnt way of thinking and understanding the world and only coming at them from our pint of view is making us miss what incredible animals and thinking being they are.
They underatnd us far better then we understand them.
So instead of disapline try guiding, try using thier language to help them. Teach them that splitting up and walking away is ok.
Give them other things to do.
Besides do we really know this is aggresion and just not puppy play out of hand and the big dogs needs to be tauught it ok to tell the little one no.

JL

bellasmomok · 09-07-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

First yes they do want rules and they love to know what they can and can not do but all behaviour is just that behaviour they are not out to take over or lead they just do what they do naturally.
It may be unacceptable to us but is normal to them so discipline them for what they bring to the table is not a good idea. To them they know no better until we teach them what we expect of them so redirect and coaching is way better then pack leader as dogs in the wild do not run in packs.
They run in ones or twos tjat join up and walk away from each other as the need and avaliable supplies are, are not there.
They do not form family groups like wolves as the supply of resoucrs does not allow that at all.

What one sees at a dump site of waste is small one and twos coming into contact with other ones and twos and fighting over limited resouces not a pack fighting and doing dominace or not.

We have to understand thees guys come from a whole differnt way of thinking and understanding the world and only coming at them from our pint of view is making us miss what incredible animals and thinking being they are.
They underatnd us far better then we understand them.
So instead of disapline try guiding, try using thier language to help them. Teach them that splitting up and walking away is ok.
Give them other things to do.
Besides do we really know this is aggresion and just not puppy play out of hand and the big dogs needs to be tauught it ok to tell the little one no.

JL

I don't remember reading anyone saying anything about disciplining the dog....in fact all I remember reading, and writing as well, is to set boundaries. I think "using their language" and "guiding" is exactly what I was saying when I said to ignore and turn away. That is passive guidance. I'm not so sure redirection will work well in this instance since the puppy, number one is probably already playing, albeit too rough, and number two turning their attention to some other form of play is only a "quick fix", a temporary solution to the problem. In fact, it may even be seen as rewarding that behavior...."good dog, here have a toy!" I believe the passive solution to stop playing is the more natural solution. When a puppy is playing with mom or litter-mates, and plays too roughly, both will let out a yelp, possibly bite back (which the older dog in this instance isn't doing, and there is no way to make it do!!), and will stop playing with them. Young puppies in litters have "rules for play"--if you're too rough then I don't want to play with you!--so older puppies who are no longer with their litter-mates need those same rules.

bellasmomok · 09-07-2008, 09:57 AM

And new puppies and kittens both do sometimes try out their dominance....that is also just a natural way of things. Just because dogs are only in 2's or 3's doesn't mean that one isn't the leader. I can guarantee you one is! I have 2 cats and 1 dog, and all 3 tested boundaries with me to see if they could be the ones to make the rules (unforturnately for them, I make the rules here!), and the youngest 2 tried their hand at being dominant over the older ones just to see if they could....pushing in front of them while they were eating, drinking, taking the toy they were playing with, etc... The older ones let them push ahead while they were still small, but then put them in their place as they got a bit bigger. It's just the way things are....

YorkieMother · 09-09-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

I don't remember reading anyone saying anything about disciplining the dog.

Well I was looking at Perroamor post that says in the first line.... Puppies need discipline actually they want it." So hummm think I read that right.

bellasmomok...."And new puppies and kittens both do sometimes try out their dominance...."
No they are trying to figure our what they can an can not do. They need to be told what is ok to do to one dog or cat then to another. Just like a human child learns playing rough with dad at the end of the day is ok but doing so with grandmother is never ok. It not dominance at all no dog or cat is out to take over the world or run the house they just want to do thing that make them happy safe and comfortable.

JL

bellasmomok · 09-09-2008, 09:33 AM

Ok, YorkieMother, Perroamor did actually use the word "discipline", but she explained what she meant by the word in the very next sentence....teaching what is acceptable and what is not. That is exactly what you have been saying (and what everyone else has been saying too). I was simply pointing out to you that no one here has been talking about any form of punishment, excessive or otherwise, which is the conclusion you seemed to have reached when you originally posted, and continue posting, about how there's essentially no such thing as a pack leader and disciplining your dog is a bad idea.

In your most recent post you said "no dog or cat is out to take over the world or run the house they just want to do thing that make them happy safe and comfortable." I would say to you that you are only partially correct. Of course no dog/cat is out to take over the world....how ridiculous do you presume we are?? But they do not always do things "that make them happy safe and comfortable." Case in point, I opened the door yesterday and Bella bolted out of it, down the driveway, and nearly made it to the street as a car was passing. The whole time I'm saying "Bella, come here" just as we've practiced, but this time she is selectively not listening. I finally yell "NOOOO!", not because I was saying "no" to her, but because her little life had just flashed before my eyes when I saw the car, and that did it. She spun around, and high tailed it back to me. (Needless to say we have a lot more practicing to do! And I'm teaching "Wait" post haste too!) I would say running toward the street is DANGEROUS!! As anyone would....not "happy safe and comfortable" behavior.

When people say "pack leader", it may mean different things to different people, but I think the operative word is "leader"....rule maker. If you let a child play with grandma the same way he plays with dad, or basically allow him to do whatever, whenever, you will have an unruly, unpleasant child. IMO, people say "you're the pack leader" in the same way they tell a mother "you're the mother!" Obviously, though I think of Bella as my furdaughter, she is not my daughter, so "you're the pack leader" is a figure of speech to say "you're the parent/boss/rule maker". And rightly so. Pets, of all ages (just as children of all ages, and some adults I know too) will test their boundaries in any new environment. Ex: Bella knows she doesn't eat people food at my house, but when we go visit my dad (who does give his dog bites), she has to check and see if she can get away with it there. Testing boundaries has nothing to do with taking over the world, but if you allow that pet (or child) to be in charge (be the "dominant" one) they will take it and run! [Can you see how we use different words with our pets, but mean exactly the same thing? To be dominant simply means "to rule, or to control". If your dog sees that they can do whatever, whenever with you, and that another dog doesn't stop it from doing whatever, whenever with them...your dog probably will do whatever, whenever to a degree. If the OP's older dog had turned and bitten that puppy back and then growled, guaranteed, the puppy would definitely play a lot nicer with that dog. If an older dog doesn't allow a younger dog, say, to push it out of the way to get to the food bowl, the younger dog will learn that the older dog isn't going to let it push it around. The older dog is in control of that situation....a.k.a. "dominant" in that particular situation.]

I feel a little exasparated that this needs to be explained. Perhaps you are taking things too literally.

YorkieMother · 09-09-2008, 09:58 AM

bellasmomok

Not sure what you have behind you for training nor what books you have read. Your talking to someone with 26 years in with human childern, full time packing a school education to do so, and at least looking at 7 years in part time and full time with dogs. Packing running now 60 books and seninars and classes in dog training and education. Your talking with someone that gets dogs and works and talks with those that are writing the books you and I are a reading on a daily bases.

I ask not rule. All my kids furry or not. They have a right unkless it a saftey concern to complie or not unless we have a dog working and truly aggressive.

So I tend to try and keep it simple in the language cause I can talk over ones head really fast with the education level I have. Now I can start tossing out learning theroy and postive reiforcement and negative reinforcement and postive punishment and negative punishment a whole bunch more if you need me too.

Dogs do what dogs do cause it is in their gene pool and works. It is to make life easy and simple for them and we need rules not them to keep them safe.

Here are a few articles.

DogTown Versus The Dog Whisperer | Dog Star Daily

The Alpha Fallacy | Dog Star Daily

Establishing Dominance | Dog Star Daily

Dog Communication | Dog Star Daily

http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...yth%201-05.doc

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

JL

bellasmomok · 09-09-2008, 11:43 AM

This is the last thing I'm going to say about this to you, YorkieMother, because I don't want to argue. Let me refresh you first:

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

It may be unacceptable to us but is normal to them so discipline them for what they bring to the table is not a good idea. To them they know no better until we teach them what we expect of them so redirect and coaching is way better then pack leader as dogs in the wild do not run in packs.
They run in ones or twos tjat join up and walk away from each other as the need and avaliable supplies are, are not there.
They do not form family groups like wolves as the supply of resoucrs does not allow that at all.

What one sees at a dump site of waste is small one and twos coming into contact with other ones and twos and fighting over limited resouces not a pack fighting and doing dominace or not.

Here is a quote from one of the articles you linked ("The Alpha Fallacy"): "A topdog has little need to threaten and an underdog would be crazy to. Without a doubt excessive growling and repeated fighting are indicative of an underlying insecurity and uncertainty about social rank vis a vis other dogs."

Hmmm, so according to your sources, there are topdogs (a.k.a. what at least I would refer to as a pack leader), and that shows of aggression, albeit more aggression than this puppy has shown to our knowledge (though I seriously doubt she's showing aggression to that degree), are "uncertainty about social rank vis a vis other dogs". Translation: show aggression in order to get a reaction in order to establish a certainty about social rank. I guess that must just be way over my head and must mean something completely different to someone with your level of education, but I feel like this is all I have been trying to say all along. So, I will bow out of this discussion since it has become contradictory and leave it to you. I would think, with your level of education and experience instructing seminars, your goal would be to listen and educate, rather than pick apart everything we say in an obstinate manner.

YorkieMother · 09-09-2008, 11:58 AM

I suggest you have a look at Pamela Reids work/Book Excel-erated Learning!
I also suggest Patrica McConnels book on Dogs we love.. I think it is call but anything by her is great.
I suggest stuff by terry ryan and or pat Millar.

I not trying to pick anything apart it all just learning and teaching. You can take that which you can use and not that which you can not.

I may have posted the wrong article and you know that makes me a human with the one but the others are right and you know that making a mistake is good learning for me to make sure i read in full and get it right.
I snagged them in a hurry.

JL

09-06-2008, 07:41 AM	#1
broodizt YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Temecula Posts: 669	Help: New Puppy Aggressive towards 18 month 2lb Yorkie Hi all, I just got a 4 month old tiny puppy. She is about 1.2lbs, so she is small, about half the size of my almost 18 month old. My problem is she keeps charging at my poor little girl, seems to nip and try to bite her, steals her toys.....and she is half the size. My older girl seems lost, and hesitant to stand up for her rights. She seems afraid to set limits and ends up being abused by the puppy. The puppy charges at her like a bull and then rams into her, jumps on her and sometimes even tries to bite her. She just seems so lost, so depressed. I wonder am I supposed to stop these shenanegans? Or allow them to work it out themselves? Both of them are very very small. my older one is only between 2 and 2.5 lbs. She seems so depressed, I'm almost thinking of selling the puppy because my older one seems to be having such a bad reaction. Should I step in and stop the puppy from jumping on the older one? How should I handle this my first time as the parent of two puppy dogs. I don't know how to handle this. Any help would be greatly appreciated. By the way, the puppy is the cutest thing. Very rambunctious and full of energy and cute as pie. But I dont want my older girl to be depressed or abused. She is the love of my life. Help!!!! Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Shellie :-)

09-06-2008, 08:45 PM	#3
bellasmomok ♥ love my girls!! ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: OKC area Posts: 1,140 Blog Entries: 1	Ok, I only have one puppy, so I can only tell you what I would do if I were in your situation. Someone else may have better advice, but this is how I think I would handle the situation given everything I've read and understand about pups. We (the parents) are supposed to be the pack leader. Your puppy is being both a rambunctious puppy but also is probably testing the water at taking over the "top dog" role. Since your 2 year old isn't taking up for herself, the puppy will probably keep on doing it. I would say that now, as the pack leader, it's time for you to step in. When my puppy (4 1/2 mo. old) is playing with me, I have to give her boundaries. She bites too hard and licks me on the mouth, etc... I have to let her know what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. I give her a stern "No, ma'am!" and then turn my back on her. Maybe you could give her the "No!" when she's being too rough with your 2 yr. old and then pick up your 2 yr. old, turn away from her, and totally ignore her for a minute or 2, not even looking at her. She won't like being ignored, and I think eventually she'll understand, "If I play nice, Mom and Sis will keep playing with me, but if I'm too rough, they won't." It does seem to work pretty well. At least that's a good starting point. I really think if you do that for awhile, she'll get the idea. I think it's really good that you gave your 2 yr. old a chance to take charge for herself, but since she hasn't, I think it's your job to do it now. You're the pack leader!! Good luck! I hope that helps! Last edited by bellasmomok; 09-06-2008 at 08:48 PM.

09-06-2008, 09:31 PM	#5
RONLYNN Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Manhattan Beach, CA Posts: 1,635	My yorkie runs up and bites the feet of my older Standard Poodle to try to get her to play with her and the trainer told me I need to stop her from doing that because the yorkie needs to learn that she can't do that whenever she wants. He also said when I am eating I need to make her stay about a foot or 2 away from me and not let her sit at my feet....they need to learn boundries. Hope this helps. __________________ Ronda & Teddi PPU - Petite Pups United Member The PINK Club Member **

09-06-2008, 11:56 PM	#7
Perroamor Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York Posts: 156	It truly is about the boundaries Puppies need discipline actually they want it. If we were never taught things how would we know what is acceptable and what is not. Dogs that exhibit behaviors that are unacceptable must know that they are not to do that. You as the pack leader must step in being calm and assertive and create the harmony that your other furbaby has been use to living in. I have found that redirecting my puppies keep them out of trouble. Training them to play is fun, you have to snap her mind out of the behaviors unacceptable and into another zone. By just picking the calm puppy up and not giving discipline to the new puppy sends a message Hey look I am the big one she is not going to do anything. I always remember I am the pack leader..Good luck.. __________________ May you be blessed with love and kindness in this lifetime. RIP Mom 5-1-1932-12-11-2008

09-07-2008, 07:24 AM	#8
YorkieMother YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: North Posts: 1,324	First yes they do want rules and they love to know what they can and can not do but all behaviour is just that behaviour they are not out to take over or lead they just do what they do naturally. It may be unacceptable to us but is normal to them so discipline them for what they bring to the table is not a good idea. To them they know no better until we teach them what we expect of them so redirect and coaching is way better then pack leader as dogs in the wild do not run in packs. They run in ones or twos tjat join up and walk away from each other as the need and avaliable supplies are, are not there. They do not form family groups like wolves as the supply of resoucrs does not allow that at all. What one sees at a dump site of waste is small one and twos coming into contact with other ones and twos and fighting over limited resouces not a pack fighting and doing dominace or not. We have to understand thees guys come from a whole differnt way of thinking and understanding the world and only coming at them from our pint of view is making us miss what incredible animals and thinking being they are. They underatnd us far better then we understand them. So instead of disapline try guiding, try using thier language to help them. Teach them that splitting up and walking away is ok. Give them other things to do. Besides do we really know this is aggresion and just not puppy play out of hand and the big dogs needs to be tauught it ok to tell the little one no. JL Last edited by YorkieMother; 09-07-2008 at 07:25 AM.

09-06-2008, 08:19 PM	#2
broodizt YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Temecula Posts: 669	Anybody out there? I really need help in handling this kind of behavior. I've never had two dogs before, and therefore I'm kind of dumb when it comes to knowing what to do about this. I really can't tell if the puppy if trying to assert her dominance over Cassie or if she is just playing. I can't tell the difference and therefore don't know when or if- I should step in to break it up. Should I allow her to keep ramming herself into Cassie? Should I try to protect Cassie? What is best for both of them? Somebody, please answer. I need your help. TIA Shellie :-)

09-06-2008, 08:53 PM	#4
bellasmomok ♥ love my girls!! ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: OKC area Posts: 1,140 Blog Entries: 1	P.S. I understand what you're saying about not knowing if you should step in or not, but I think you'll know when. Let them play, but if it's obviously too rough and your 2 yr. old is obviously not having fun, then you'll know it's time. Keep the peace and give your baby boundaries without completely inhibiting her, if that makes any sense. You do have to let her be a puppy, somewhat...but she doesn't have to be a holy terror!

09-06-2008, 09:49 PM	#6
broodizt YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Temecula Posts: 669	Thank you both so much for your advice. I just wrote a long winded (LOL) reply and Thank You to Bellasmomok, but I keep getting signed out of the website. Then when I signed back in, it wasn't there. Anyone else having this problem? :-) Shellie

09-07-2008, 09:57 AM	#10
bellasmomok ♥ love my girls!! ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: OKC area Posts: 1,140 Blog Entries: 1	And new puppies and kittens both do sometimes try out their dominance....that is also just a natural way of things. Just because dogs are only in 2's or 3's doesn't mean that one isn't the leader. I can guarantee you one is! I have 2 cats and 1 dog, and all 3 tested boundaries with me to see if they could be the ones to make the rules (unforturnately for them, I make the rules here!), and the youngest 2 tried their hand at being dominant over the older ones just to see if they could....pushing in front of them while they were eating, drinking, taking the toy they were playing with, etc... The older ones let them push ahead while they were still small, but then put them in their place as they got a bit bigger. It's just the way things are....

09-09-2008, 09:33 AM	#12
bellasmomok ♥ love my girls!! ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: OKC area Posts: 1,140 Blog Entries: 1	Ok, YorkieMother, Perroamor did actually use the word "discipline", but she explained what she meant by the word in the very next sentence....teaching what is acceptable and what is not. That is exactly what you have been saying (and what everyone else has been saying too). I was simply pointing out to you that no one here has been talking about any form of punishment, excessive or otherwise, which is the conclusion you seemed to have reached when you originally posted, and continue posting, about how there's essentially no such thing as a pack leader and disciplining your dog is a bad idea. In your most recent post you said "no dog or cat is out to take over the world or run the house they just want to do thing that make them happy safe and comfortable." I would say to you that you are only partially correct. Of course no dog/cat is out to take over the world....how ridiculous do you presume we are?? But they do not always do things "that make them happy safe and comfortable." Case in point, I opened the door yesterday and Bella bolted out of it, down the driveway, and nearly made it to the street as a car was passing. The whole time I'm saying "Bella, come here" just as we've practiced, but this time she is selectively not listening. I finally yell "NOOOO!", not because I was saying "no" to her, but because her little life had just flashed before my eyes when I saw the car, and that did it. She spun around, and high tailed it back to me. (Needless to say we have a lot more practicing to do! And I'm teaching "Wait" post haste too!) I would say running toward the street is DANGEROUS!! As anyone would....not "happy safe and comfortable" behavior. When people say "pack leader", it may mean different things to different people, but I think the operative word is "leader"....rule maker. If you let a child play with grandma the same way he plays with dad, or basically allow him to do whatever, whenever, you will have an unruly, unpleasant child. IMO, people say "you're the pack leader" in the same way they tell a mother "you're the mother!" Obviously, though I think of Bella as my furdaughter, she is not my daughter, so "you're the pack leader" is a figure of speech to say "you're the parent/boss/rule maker". And rightly so. Pets, of all ages (just as children of all ages, and some adults I know too) will test their boundaries in any new environment. Ex: Bella knows she doesn't eat people food at my house, but when we go visit my dad (who does give his dog bites), she has to check and see if she can get away with it there. Testing boundaries has nothing to do with taking over the world, but if you allow that pet (or child) to be in charge (be the "dominant" one) they will take it and run! [Can you see how we use different words with our pets, but mean exactly the same thing? To be dominant simply means "to rule, or to control". If your dog sees that they can do whatever, whenever with you, and that another dog doesn't stop it from doing whatever, whenever with them...your dog probably will do whatever, whenever to a degree. If the OP's older dog had turned and bitten that puppy back and then growled, guaranteed, the puppy would definitely play a lot nicer with that dog. If an older dog doesn't allow a younger dog, say, to push it out of the way to get to the food bowl, the younger dog will learn that the older dog isn't going to let it push it around. The older dog is in control of that situation....a.k.a. "dominant" in that particular situation.] I feel a little exasparated that this needs to be explained. Perhaps you are taking things too literally. Last edited by bellasmomok; 09-09-2008 at 09:35 AM.

09-09-2008, 09:58 AM	#13
YorkieMother YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: North Posts: 1,324	bellasmomok Not sure what you have behind you for training nor what books you have read. Your talking to someone with 26 years in with human childern, full time packing a school education to do so, and at least looking at 7 years in part time and full time with dogs. Packing running now 60 books and seninars and classes in dog training and education. Your talking with someone that gets dogs and works and talks with those that are writing the books you and I are a reading on a daily bases. I ask not rule. All my kids furry or not. They have a right unkless it a saftey concern to complie or not unless we have a dog working and truly aggressive. So I tend to try and keep it simple in the language cause I can talk over ones head really fast with the education level I have. Now I can start tossing out learning theroy and postive reiforcement and negative reinforcement and postive punishment and negative punishment a whole bunch more if you need me too. Dogs do what dogs do cause it is in their gene pool and works. It is to make life easy and simple for them and we need rules not them to keep them safe. Here are a few articles. DogTown Versus The Dog Whisperer \| Dog Star Daily The Alpha Fallacy \| Dog Star Daily Establishing Dominance \| Dog Star Daily Dog Communication \| Dog Star Daily http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...yth%201-05.doc ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory JL

09-09-2008, 11:58 AM	#15
YorkieMother YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: North Posts: 1,324	I suggest you have a look at Pamela Reids work/Book Excel-erated Learning! I also suggest Patrica McConnels book on Dogs we love.. I think it is call but anything by her is great. I suggest stuff by terry ryan and or pat Millar. I not trying to pick anything apart it all just learning and teaching. You can take that which you can use and not that which you can not. I may have posted the wrong article and you know that makes me a human with the one but the others are right and you know that making a mistake is good learning for me to make sure i read in full and get it right. I snagged them in a hurry. JL