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Old 11-17-2006, 08:40 PM   #1
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Angry Review of Cindy Johnson - Valley View Puppies

I know there are those of you who firmly attest that teacup yorkies don’t really “exist” or that they are simply runts or anomalies and any breeder that advertises teacup yorkies is doing the breed a disservice and cannot possibly be reputable. This post isn’t really about that, and I don’t want this to turn into a debate. I am one of those people that believes there are actually reputable breeders of teacup sized yorkies who have a proven history of producing these tiny pups that are perfectly normal, healthy, delightful dogs, and in February 2006 I began searching for just such a breeder. I had done lots of research (though apparently not enough) and after an exhaustive search, I stumbled upon the Valley View Puppies website, owned by Cindy Johnson. Right away, I was impressed with the information provided on the website, general information about yorkies, information about herself, pictures of the sire and dams, testimonials, etc. I made it very clear to her size was MOST important to me, and I really wanted a teacup sized yorkie. I reiterated this point over and over. She assured me the little male I had chosen would definitely be less than 3.5 lbs, and would probably barely reach 3. I told her I would not hold her to an exact size of course, but I did want to feel assured he would stay within what is normally regarded as the teacup range. The little male I purchased was still too young to travel, so Cindy promised she would keep me updated with pictures. I didn’t receive any pictures or emails for a while. I began to get the feeling I had been scammed, and I even ran an identity check on her, to make sure there really was a Cindy Johnson living at the address she had given me. When she finally did touch base, I questioned her. She gave me a huge guilt trip, explaining that she was digging herself out of blizzard conditions in Nebraska at the time. I felt terrible – like a paranoid, crazy lady - here this poor woman was suffering through a blizzard, and I was doing background checks on her! The funny things was, I noticed the blizzard didn’t keep her from updating her web page with new pictures of her other puppies that same week.

As the weeks progressed, I began to think my puppy looked a little large. But Cindy assured me, he was a “tiny teacup”, and that her teacups tend to grow very quickly at first, then just completely stop growing. Still, I wasn’t convinced, so I asked if she could photograph my puppy next to a slightly older puppy that came from a different litter. The sire and dam of this other puppy had a proven history of producing tinies. (BTW, I was originally interested in this other puppy, but Cindy said the little male I chose had a much better pedigree, his mother was smaller than the other’s, and his bone structure was much more petite.) I also asked if she could provide me with both their weights, so I could compare that as well. She said she couldn’t get the two puppies to stay still long enough to snap the shot, and she never did provide the weights either. In hindsight, I now wonder why her husband or some other person couldn’t have held the two puppies next to each other while she took the picture. But the thing was, I was still kind of embarrassed over the whole “blizzard-background-check-episode-thing”, and I just didn’t want to come across as a difficult or hard-to-please customer. Plus, Cindy comes across as so sugary sweet and so genuinely interested in being helpful. I really felt guilty questioning her at that point. I did, however, ask her to provide the puppy’s weight a week before he was due to fly home. She said he weighed 1 lb. 5 oz. Funny thing is, when Huck arrived, a week later, I weighed him on my digital scale, and he weighed in at a whopping 1 lb. 12 oz. Teacup yorkies don’t gain 7 ounces in 7 days! At that point I realized, either Cindy wasn’t being completely upfront or her scale was way off! I expressed my concern over his size. She said he was just fat, because he had received lots of table scraps (That’s a whole other issue! To this day, we still struggle with Huck’s annoying tendency to beg and rummage through the kitchen garbage!). She said his weight gain would slow down and taper off, especially once he no longer received table food. Anyway, to make a long story not too much longer, as you might have guessed, Huck continued to rapidly grow, and grow, and grow, and grow.

He is about 9 months old and just recently passed the 5 lb mark. We travel A LOT. When Huck was still in the 3 lb range we moved from Texas to Maryland. Traveling with him was so easy. We just put him in my small purse style carrier, and I could take him everywhere, in and out of hotels, restaurants, shopping, etc., so we didn’t have to worry about scheduling kennel stays, about him being left behind at the hotel barking, or about whether we’ll be able to leave him in the car while we stop to eat somewhere. Now that Huck is larger, traveling is becoming more and more difficult. Also, I decided to litter box train him. Having a dog that is 3.5 lbs or less doing it’s “business” indoors isn’t a huge deal (if you know what I mean), but that too is becoming a little less practical now that he’s larger. (BTW, he receives ˝ cup of NutroMax every two days, and usually doesn’t even finish that. And we DO NOT feed him table scraps! So, he’s definitely not over fed.)

By the time I paid for shipping ($350), I had shelled out $2200 for Huck. Cindy said she based his price first on pedigree, then on size, then on coat, then on ears. Unfortunately, I was misled on every one of those traits. She told me he had an “impressive” pedigree on both the mother's and the father’s side, which she said was the main reason he was priced higher than the others she had listed. However, when I received his 3-generation pedigree, there was only one champion, and it was on his mother’s side. She told me he would be a “tiny teacup” (her exact words). Well, he’s not even a teacup, much less a tiny teacup. He’s barely even what most would consider a tiny toy. As for coat…she told me Huck would have a "very nice coat". Huck has what’s called a wiry coat. A wiry coat tends to appear dry and frizzy and usually never achieves any significant length. As for Huck’s ears – they’re big and tall. I have to keep them trimmed very short and I let the hair on the bottom half of his ears grow, so it hides their size.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Huck. The minute he curled up in my arms, he was mine forever, and, despite any “flaws” he may have, I would never give him up. I do, however, think I paid way, way too much for him. If a breeder charges that much for a dog, then that breeder should be willing to stand behind his or her claims about his or her dogs, even when the dog falls short. And, certainly, if a puppy is advertised over and over as a tiny teacup, the buyer should receive at least a teacup-sized dog. I’ve asked Cindy to provide me with a partial refund - just charge me what you would normally charge for a dog with his pedigree, size, coat and ears, and refund me the difference - a pretty reasonable request IMO. (BTW - yes, I did sign the contract stating, basically, nothing outside of health is guaranteed. I know. I know. But I signed it naively thinking that was to protect Cindy from those type of people that get upset over a few ounces or a coat that is less than perfect or something like that.) She refused, claiming she’d already “bent over backwards for me”, and said she was sorry Huck didn’t turn out to be “exactly” the size I had hoped for. It’s not that he isn’t “exactly” the size I had hoped for. Rather, it’s that he isn’t even near the size I paid for, or the quality.

My main purpose for posting here is partly because I'm just mad and have no other recourse and, of course, partly because I’d just really like to hear y’all’s thoughts…
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Old 11-17-2006, 08:45 PM   #2
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I don't blame you for being upset for getting a larger dog then you paid for, considering you paid $2,200 plus $350 shipping (you could of paid alot less and gotten a smaller dog), but now that you have him and love him his size probally doesn't matter
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Old 11-17-2006, 09:03 PM   #3
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Because you signed a contract stating all that mumble jumble your pretty much screwed in the legal way... But on her own good faith she should partially refund your money showing she stands behind her dogs... But, hey I guess she doesn't if she told you, "no" already...I would keep trying, keep e-mailing her...Bug the s*&t out of her ................
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Old 11-17-2006, 09:10 PM   #4
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I think she owes you the partial refund. Unfortunately, you will most likely never see it. It is great that you love Huck. And you must know that what goes around, comes around and she will eventually get hers.
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Old 11-18-2006, 05:58 AM   #5
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I too think the kennel owner should rebate part of the price but I doubt it will ever happen. I have learned the hard way that these verbal contracts just hold no weight along side a written contract that says different. My experience was with a home improvement and not a pet but it involved a LOT more money and I was still basically screwed due to a "limited guarantee." Unscupulous people can talk all they want but if they don't put it on paper, you are not protected.
There is no way anyone can predict the size a puppy will grow to be. Back in their linage there was bound to be some larger size and who knows when it will show? If you really want a "teacup" size, the only way to guarantee that is to buy a fully grown adult dog.
Sorry your baby was not as advertised but glad to hear you bonded and love the little one just the same. Good lesson to share with others about contracts, word of mouth, checking pedigrees, and steering away from some breeders.
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Old 11-18-2006, 06:12 AM   #6
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I fell in love with CAliwhen I went to first see her. At the time the breeder said she was the only one left and she keeps the best for last in case they end up keeping the pup. I wasn't concerned about weight i just wanted one that would not go over standard. She told me that Cali would only be 3 lbs and she was charging more than her 2 sisters. When I went back to get her 3 weeks later she had caught up to her sisters weight. She is now about 5 lbs and still very tiny and portable. She is wee wee pad trained and it's not a problem. I too feel that breeders should not give a specific weight as no one can guarantee size and refunds should be made if they charge more becasue of it. I bought Cali before I found YT and I am so much smarter about getting a dog, I hope!! Sometimes you just fall in love. To me CAli is perfect!!
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Old 11-18-2006, 06:12 AM   #7
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If this breeder was a knowledge breeder of the yorkie breed she would have known that the word "teacup" is NOT in the yorkie standard. NOBODY can tell you exactly how much your puppy is going to weigh as an adult...I'm not sure if any of you have watched the show on discovery health about dwarf ( can I say this word?!) couple that had 2 children that were dwarf size and 2 normal sized children....now they came from the same size parents...NOTHING is ever gaurenteed! Alot of people who breed yorkies use the term teacup as a selling feature, jacking the prices WAY up! If it had been me...the minute she told me she sold teacups I would have started looking somewhere else...JMO
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Old 11-18-2006, 06:21 AM   #8
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I agree!!! That is a terrible price for any yorkie.

Charging extra for a pedigree for a "teacup" is ridiculous since you shouldn't be breeding them anyway.

Charging more for a "teacup" is ridiculous because they generally have more health issues.

As for the pee pad training, I have a 5 1/2 pound and he is pee pad trained, it's not much different than at 3 1/2 pound one. Still very doable.

I don't try to sneak mine into stores or restaurnats, but I would guess I could easily do it if I wanted to.

I'm sorry that you were over charged and appreciate the "heads Up" on this breeder, but personally I think having him be larger than expected will be a blessing in the long run.

I'm glad you love every ounce of him.
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Old 11-18-2006, 06:26 AM   #9
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Lightbulb Weight......not all the issue

Apart from the weight thing......I believe if she breeds "tinies" she probably could predict, better than anyone the Yorkie's weight, within in a close range anyway........so that is one thing....but the other thing is the coat issue.....if I am not mistaken she should know whether the coat was going to be silky or "not silky" very early with this pup. That one bothers me......and the ear thing......and experienced breeder can tell about those too.........

So, all that being said.......I believe you were misled a bit and she should return some of your money.......she probably won't.....which is another "red flag"

$2200 is quite a lot for a "pet" puppy anyway.......

I will definately take note in my purchase of a Yorkie....

I am sorry for your disappointment.
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Old 11-18-2006, 06:28 AM   #10
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like a wise person once told me nobody can guarentee the size of a pup or dog until it's finished growing. there's no such thing as a teacup yes you overpaied. file a complaint with the bbb and wherever else you possibly can maybe the akc?
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Old 11-18-2006, 06:30 AM   #11
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would this be them?

http://www.valleyviewpuppies.com/
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Old 11-18-2006, 08:23 AM   #12
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Yup - that's her! And, as you can see, she's still advertising those "tiny teacups" with "excellent pedigrees". I really do hope this helps at least one person. Hinesight, as always, is 20/20. If I were to ever purchase another teacup yorkie, I would definitely only buy the puppy after it had reached at least 6 months of age. If you are deadset on a younger puppy, use the toy breed puppy growth chart. Unfortunately I discovered this tool too late. Again, it's not a guarantee of size, but it does seem to provide a pretty good estimation. When I went back and compared Huck's early weights and ages to the chart, it was nearly right on the money. I also decided to see if it would have accurately estimated my other yorkie's (Finn ) weight correctly, and, again, it was correct. The only thing is, it is based on an ACCURATE age and weight. Be sure the breeder uses a digital scale or a very well calibrated manual scale, because a reading that is even a few ounces off will estimate a different size range.

As I mentioned before, I still do believe there are reputable breeders of teacup yorkies. Again, after I purchased Huck I learned I probably should have made sure the sire and dam came from a long, long line of healthy teacups and that both parents together had a proven history of producing teacups. Just because the parents are small, or just because one of them has produced teacups isn't enough.

I think these measures will certainly increase the probability of coming home with a true teacup, but the person who posted above is right - there is no guarantee. There are always anomalies, exceptions, in any breeding program, with respect to size, coat, color, health, etc. That's why I would definitely suggest you get it in writing. No breeder is going to guarantee size, but if he/she truly believes his/her breeding programs produces teacups and are charging more for them, then they should have no problem guaranteeing a size range, guaranteeing the puppy will not get any bigger than say 4 lbs.

I really appreciate your thoughts and words of wisdom. I will probably try to contact Cindy again, and, who knows, maybe she will prove us all wrong and decide on a fair resolution to this problem. I will definitely let you know!

Anna
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Old 11-18-2006, 08:40 AM   #13
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No breeder can quarantee weight and if they tell you they can they are full of it. I too bought what I thought was going to be a small yorkie and paid extra for her. She was 12 oz when I brought her home at 8 weeks. She grew to 6 lbs. The only contract I had was verbal so there was nothing i could do about it. I really dont think my breeder could have forseen My 12 ooz girl growing to 6 lbs anyway. Any time you pay more for a tiny you are taking a risk that it will grow bigger than 3 lbs. People who buy tinies usually are aware of that and take that risk. I dont think the breeder owes you any money back. You took a risk
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Old 11-18-2006, 08:52 AM   #14
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I think you should be refunded some of your money.. although we all know that she will not do that!!!

another side note... .Why is this lady breeding 3lb females?!?!?! poor dogs
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Old 11-18-2006, 08:58 AM   #15
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That's a pretty sweeping generalization, and not at all accurate, at least not in my case. This was a BIG purchase for me, and I made sure she knew that. I would have NEVER spent that kind of money on something I KNEW to be a risk. I truly believed Cindy was a knowledgable, forthright breeder and she comes across as SOOOO sweet and genuienly interested in her customers. Because she so firmly assured me of Huck's weight I purchased him from her, and I felt confident that if he were to fall short of any of her claims, she would be willing to make things right. I was honestly surprised when she refused, and that's why I'm so upset.

It's precisely because I made it so clear that size was of the upmost importance and because she assured me over and over that he would remain small that I feel she owes me some reparation. Initially, I even asked her outright, have any of your tiny teacups ever been significantly larger than expected, and she said no. If I had failed to make my wants clear or she had even once stated he might be much larger than predicted, I wouldn't feel justified in asking for anything, but that's just not the case here.
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