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02-02-2007, 11:47 AM | #1 |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: CA
Posts: 84
| Breeders/potential breeders, have you heard yourself say this? Breeders, have you ever said one (or more) of the following statements to someone? 1. When called on bad breeding practices, ALWAYS claim that you are merely an innocent posting as a favor to a friend or family member. 2. Point out that everybody you know breeds this way, therefore it must be okay. 3. Claim that "snobby show breeders" are only criticizing you because they want to corner the market on puppy profit. 4. Claim that a Champion in the pedigree is just as good as 56 Champions in the pedigree. Not that it matters, because you doubt that there is such a thing as a dog with 56 champions in the pedigree. 5. Claim that you are just trying to produce good pets, therefore good pets are all you need for breeding. 6. When asked about health testing, enthusiastically point out that your bitch had a health checkup before breeding. 7. Be sure to mention that you do not need to run such health tests as OFA, CERF, thyroid, cardiac, patellae, etc., because your dogs look healthy and had no visible problems at their last vet checkup. 8. Point out that these tests cost too much and would cut into your profit margin. Be sure to champion the right of poor people to breed dogs. 9. Confidently assure worried rescuers that no puppy you produce, or any of their puppies or grand puppies or great-grandpuppies will end up in shelters because you have a bunch of friends who have told you that they'd like a pup from your bitch. 10. Point out that you don't need Championships or working titles on your dogs because you are breeding for temperament and your dog is really sweet. 11. Silence those annoying people who ask about your health guarantee by assuring them that buyers can return any sick puppies and you will replace it with another pup as long as it got sick within a certain amount of time of sale and as long as you don't think the buyer did something to make the puppy sick. 12. If your breed or line is rare (or you have a "rare" color, or believe your breed or color is rare), be sure to remind everyone that you do not need to show, temperament test, or health test your breeding stock because you are doing the world a service by continuing this "rare" breed/color/line. 13. No matter what anyone else says, claim that you obviously know what you are doing because you've been breeding for a long time. Point to the hundreds of puppies you've pumped out over the years as proof. 14. If this is your first attempt at breeding, make sure to remind everyone that you HAVE to breed your dog because how else are you going to learn how to breed? 15. Assure everyone that your dog does not need to be shown because you were assured by someone at Petsmart/the park/the vet's office/a friend that your dog is a perfect example of the breed. 16. Always remember that "rare" colors, oversized or undersized dogs, and mixes of popular breeds are great selling points. Anyone who doesn't think so is obviously not in tune with their customers' wishes. 17. Claim that your dogs are better because they are not inbred, as inbreeding obviously produces sick/stupid/deformed dogs. If breeding poo [as in "Cock-a-Poo," "Peek-a-Poo," etc.] dogs or other mutts, always point to "hybrid vigor" as proof of your dogs' superiority. 18. Remind everyone that you do not need a waiting list because your puppies are cute. 19. Assure everyone that your puppies will not end up in shelters because they are cute. 20. Claim that YOUR breed never ends up in shelters in your area, therefore your puppies will never end up in shelters. 21. If asked why you think your dogs are breeding quality, point out that they "have papers." Extra points awarded for using the phrase "AKC Certified." Double points if those papers come from the Continental Kennel Club. 22. If you sell a sick puppy, always blame the owners for making it sick. If the owners are clearly not responsible, blame their vet. (see #11) 23. If presented with irrefutable evidence proving you wrong on any excuses you have used, pretend your server did not receive the post/e-mail. 24. Claim that none of the rules of ethical breeding apply to you because you only intend to have one litter and therefore aren't a "real" breeder. 25. If all else fails, tell everyone who criticizes you to "get a life." "The Backyard Breeders' and Puppy Millers' Big Book of Old Excuses" Written by Denna Pace 2001.
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02-02-2007, 12:46 PM | #2 |
Little Bit & Buttons Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: US
Posts: 2,160
| Great Post Should be a Sticky |
02-02-2007, 12:53 PM | #3 |
Peeka Boo I See You! Donating Member | I really don't want to get into this because i am so sick of this topic here but could you please tell me who should be breeding in your opinion? BTW it's posts like these that make everyone so uncomfortable to post any questions here instead of being a helpful site to gain knowledge on this subject people are to scared to ask and thats why you get the threads that say help giving birth what do i do. If they could have asked questions to be better educated without people ripping them a new one mabey there wouldn't be so many of those threads!
__________________ Last edited by Amber_lv; 02-02-2007 at 12:57 PM. |
02-02-2007, 01:32 PM | #4 |
Puppy Luv Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Canada
Posts: 2,678
| I think anyone who has ever said those things should not be breeding. Way too many backyard breeders out there and if they are offended by posts like this than too bad, its the dogs that pay the price which is much more costly than a few hurt feelings of those that care so little about ethics, the betterment of the breed and care mostly about money. I understand your point too Amber, its a tough one. But I do not want YT to become BYB central, but also hope that we can help the yorkies and their puppies when in danger because of the lack of responsibilty of their owners. First of all the yorkies and their safety must come first, we can't turn our back on them. Maybe threads like this will prevent someone from breeding their dogs, at least it gets them thinking about whats right and wrong. |
02-02-2007, 01:57 PM | #5 |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 1,548
| QUOTE=MissiesMommy;927646]Breeders, have you ever said one (or more) of the following statements to someone? 1. When called on bad breeding practices, ALWAYS claim that you are merely an innocent posting as a favor to a friend or family member. 2. Point out that everybody you know breeds this way, therefore it must be okay. 3. Claim that "snobby show breeders" are only criticizing you because they want to corner the market on puppy profit. 4. Claim that a Champion in the pedigree is just as good as 56 Champions in the pedigree. Not that it matters, because you doubt that there is such a thing as a dog with 56 champions in the pedigree. 5. Claim that you are just trying to produce good pets, therefore good pets are all you need for breeding. 6. When asked about health testing, enthusiastically point out that your bitch had a health checkup before breeding. 7. Be sure to mention that you do not need to run such health tests as OFA, CERF, thyroid, cardiac, patellae, etc., because your dogs look healthy and had no visible problems at their last vet checkup. 8. Point out that these tests cost too much and would cut into your profit margin. Be sure to champion the right of poor people to breed dogs. 9. Confidently assure worried rescuers that no puppy you produce, or any of their puppies or grand puppies or great-grandpuppies will end up in shelters because you have a bunch of friends who have told you that they'd like a pup from your bitch. 10. Point out that you don't need Championships or working titles on your dogs because you are breeding for temperament and your dog is really sweet. 11. Silence those annoying people who ask about your health guarantee by assuring them that buyers can return any sick puppies and you will replace it with another pup as long as it got sick within a certain amount of time of sale and as long as you don't think the buyer did something to make the puppy sick. 12. If your breed or line is rare (or you have a "rare" color, or believe your breed or color is rare), be sure to remind everyone that you do not need to show, temperament test, or health test your breeding stock because you are doing the world a service by continuing this "rare" breed/color/line. 13. No matter what anyone else says, claim that you obviously know what you are doing because you've been breeding for a long time. Point to the hundreds of puppies you've pumped out over the years as proof. 14. If this is your first attempt at breeding, make sure to remind everyone that you HAVE to breed your dog because how else are you going to learn how to breed? 15. Assure everyone that your dog does not need to be shown because you were assured by someone at Petsmart/the park/the vet's office/a friend that your dog is a perfect example of the breed. 16. Always remember that "rare" colors, oversized or undersized dogs, and mixes of popular breeds are great selling points. Anyone who doesn't think so is obviously not in tune with their customers' wishes. 17. Claim that your dogs are better because they are not inbred, as inbreeding obviously produces sick/stupid/deformed dogs. If breeding poo [as in "Cock-a-Poo," "Peek-a-Poo," etc.] dogs or other mutts, always point to "hybrid vigor" as proof of your dogs' superiority. 18. Remind everyone that you do not need a waiting list because your puppies are cute. 19. Assure everyone that your puppies will not end up in shelters because they are cute. 20. Claim that YOUR breed never ends up in shelters in your area, therefore your puppies will never end up in shelters. 21. If asked why you think your dogs are breeding quality, point out that they "have papers." Extra points awarded for using the phrase "AKC Certified." Double points if those papers come from the Continental Kennel Club. 22. If you sell a sick puppy, always blame the owners for making it sick. If the owners are clearly not responsible, blame their vet. (see #11) 23. If presented with irrefutable evidence proving you wrong on any excuses you have used, pretend your server did not receive the post/e-mail. 24. Claim that none of the rules of ethical breeding apply to you because you only intend to have one litter and therefore aren't a "real" breeder. 25. If all else fails, tell everyone who criticizes you to "get a life." "The Backyard Breeders' and Puppy Millers' Big Book of Old Excuses" Written by Denna Pace 2001.[/QUOTE]
__________________ Mary Ann A'Lea Yorkshire Terriers |
02-02-2007, 02:08 PM | #6 |
Mommy To 3 Poochies Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New York
Posts: 8,287
| Interesting thread. Very informative.
__________________ Mommy Loves Codie, Tia & Baby Cali RIP My Precious Katie - I Love You |
02-02-2007, 02:11 PM | #7 | |
Peeka Boo I See You! Donating Member | Thank you for not freaking out on me lol. I understand everyone's frustration about everybody wanting to breed i really do get it I just wish we could make the topic a little easier to choke down i think if there was more education and a little less critisosm that we here at YT could really help people. Yes there are some people who shouldn't be breeding but there are some who are not show people who do a great job breeding and making the breed better and not in it for the money but really love the breed. I know i will get flack for this post and i probably should have kept my mouth shut but if all the YT members really knew how hurt people are about some of these things then they would reconsider how they post their answers. A lot of people are very dissapointed about the way YT has become and fearful to ask questions that really nee to be addressed. I don't want to offend anyone but there are going to be breeders in this world who don't show dogs why can't we be proud of those who educate themselves and are not greeders. If we make it easier to talk about here mabey we won't have so many BYB in it for the money when they know nothing about the consequences and for those who choose to ignore the help we need to be there when they are in trouble. We are all here for one reason we love the yorkie breed and i feel we are a family here Quote:
__________________ | |
02-02-2007, 02:55 PM | #8 | |
Puppy Luv Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Canada
Posts: 2,678
| Quote:
I have seen many breeders out there and here at YT that that do not show that are reputable and I would be happy to have a puppy from. So do I think all breeders that do not show are BYBs? No, just the ones that care less about the breed and their yorkies and more about the money. | |
02-02-2007, 03:08 PM | #9 |
YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,808
| No everyone doesn't have to be a show breeder but if you breed you will find a show experience to be very educational. None of us can strive to improve the breed in temperment, health, and beautify according to the breed standard without an education. A personal mentor to teach you is not always easy to find. I enjoy going to the shows and am honored that a judge would take time out to go over a dog for me ( they'll do it even if your not showing). I've learned so much about confirmation issues that I just couldn't comprehend from reading a book. Having someone go over the faults as well as the shining attributes of your bitch or dog can only help you when your trying to improve upon that dog an develop your line. The post is a tough one and as careful as I'm trying to be there were still some "ouch"s that I felt. No one is perfect I guess, we're all on a journey.
__________________ Tami |
02-02-2007, 04:47 PM | #10 | |
Mardelin Yorkshire Terriers Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: California
Posts: 14,776
| Quote:
Well said. Showing was what I did before I ever attempted breeding. There is a wealth of knowledge to draw on from breeders/exhibitors/judges. To listen to them explain the structure of a dog, stifles, pasterns, tipped pelvis......the many structural reasons a dog gaits the way the do....the reason they do not have the proper head carriage.....angulation, cow hock, ....too close in the rear, bad fronts, ear set, eastie/westies.....it use to amaze me, until I caught on and the light went on that if I wanted to breed to improve....that I really should know all this stuff before I even attempted it.
__________________ Mardelin Yorkshire Terriers | |
02-02-2007, 05:41 PM | #11 |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: CA
Posts: 84
| Amber, people who breed to improve the breed as a whole. Not people that "love" Yorkies or "love" their babies and "wouldn't do anything to hurt them, but my female's in heat, when can I breed her?" That means people who breed to standards (not from what they've read in a book. More like what Lady Hawk said), and do ALL the appropriate health testing before ever breeding. The breed as a whole, each precious Yorkie out there, and every potential/current Yorkie owner DESERVES that. To do less is a disservice, and I'll hold to that because my baby and I pay the price for breeders who didn't care enough. I'm not here to inflame people or make it difficult for potential breeders to ask questions, but I am here to advocate responsible, ethical breeding. Every Yorkie owner should recognize that even where they buy from affects the Yorkie breed, because the more BYBs and puppy mills they support, the more Yorkies are going to suffer. It's not about "ugly" Yorkies or pet quality vs. show quality, it's about HEALTHY Yorkies with beautiful temperaments and good structure. And a big THANK YOU to you breeders who are still learning and doing all you can to keep improving. Much kudos.
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02-02-2007, 08:02 PM | #12 |
My Angels Donating Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Colorful Colorado
Posts: 2,260
| Missies Mommy, Are you a breeder or have you ever bred dogs before? I see from some of your posts in this forum that you may be angry with the person you got your dogs from. Were you duped by her and told you were getting a show quality dog or is it the health of your dog that has turned you against any breeder that does not show? I understand Ambers frustration in her post because you continue to try to put breeders in a bad light every since you started on this forum. I understand what constructive insight the other breeders on here have offered and I agree with it but I wonder what your motives are as I continue to see you post about breeders or "greeders" as you like to call us time and time again. |
02-02-2007, 08:09 PM | #13 | |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Jersey Shore
Posts: 104
| Quote:
However, I think your passion and efforts would be far more effective and productive if they were aimed at puppy mills rather at anyone on the YT board that may be thinking of breeding their dog. Let me preface this with saying, I have never bred any type of animal. All of our pets have been spayed/neutered. But, I just would like to give my two cents. I think you would agree, that 90%+ of the readers/posters on this forum are die hard animal lovers. They are also very devoted pet owners to their Yorkies--some times to the point of obsession, myself included. Yes, there are people that will breed their beloved pet with another AKC Yorkie, just for the----DARE I SAY IT?????--the experience!!!!!!! The people that post on this board seem to be overwhelming very concerned pet owners. They are pet owners that take excellent medical care of their pets. This includes medical care necessary for a pregnant dog and her pups. I am really not trying to be flip, but in my opinion---if you really want to get on a cause to help save the purity of the Yorkie breed--there are other places where your efforts will be much more productive. We are very devoted pet owners and love them all, regardless of the purity of their bloodlines. We have chosen to voice our opinions regarding purity of bloodlines-- with donating our time, effort and money to Animal Shelters and to active and effective groups intent on closing down puppy mills. Puppy mills are the real enemy in contaminating a bloodline of all breeds of dogs--NOT the few people who post here, who may decide to breed their AKC Yorkie with another AKC Yorkie because they may want: another Yorkie or wish to experience the miracle of a dog having puppies. Sorry, but I can not comprehend how this is even fits in the same category as the animal abuse and devaluing of the breed---as a puppy mill does. | |
02-02-2007, 11:53 PM | #14 |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: CA
Posts: 84
| CO_Yorkie_Momma- I'm not angry with the person who bred my dog or Yorkie breeders in general. Again, my goal is to prevent other people from making the same mistake I did, and to educate owners and potential owners about choosing and supporting breeders who actually breed to better the breed. It's ok if you don't agree with me or my posts, but that doesn't make me wrong because you don't agree. Also, when I refer to "greeders" I am NOT referring to breeders in general. I am referring to people who breed to make money specifically. Though the term could also encompass those that are selfish in their motives for breeding, and do it for their own reasons rather than for the well-being of their dog(s) and the breed in general. Jazzy, people who breed for the experience are unethical and have no concept of overpopulation. The problem of overpopulation affects this entire country, and innocent animals lose their lives because everyone thinks they have a right to breed their dog--even if it's just once. You'll notice many of my posts are directed to potential buyers as well, and this is because I'm not a raging fanatic just out to shut down puppy mills. I want people to THINK about what they're doing, whether it's buying or breeding. If people would think about the impact of their actions as a whole we wouldn't have such an overpopulation problem. Most of you here don't seem to grasp that the Yorkie breed is not in a bubble. Yorkies are abused, neglected, and surrendered to rescues and shelters just as much as any other breed (almost--you really can't compare with say, Labradors), so buying or breeding a Yorkie makes an impact. I don't see how anyone can say they love their Yorkie or they love the breed but be so oblivious to the Yorkies out there desperately needing loving homes. You know what would happen if we shut every puppy mill down? The backyard breeders, who breed for selfish purposes, would take over mass producing puppies to fill the demand. And more BYBs would spring up everywhere because hey, they can make a quick buck! And uneducated people would buy them up like there was no tomorrow, because no one told them how to find a breeder who strives to produce healthy, even-tempered pups. So the greedy, selfish BYBs get rich, and the uneducated buyers get poor paying vet bills and going through the emotional stress of having an ill dog. People who love dogs don't support that cycle, because they don't want dogs to suffer needlessly. Anyone can throw two dogs together and let nature take it's course. A real breeder's motives have to be more pure than that.
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02-03-2007, 12:57 AM | #15 |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA
Posts: 225
| I am thankful that we have hobby breeders. We have several in this forum, members have purchased from them with great results and friendships that have formed here on YT. As much as I feel bad for the dogs in shelters, not everyone qualifies to adopt from a shelter and others choose to not want to. It is not the dogs fault for being there, absolutely the owners. Breeders have a responsibilty, raising healthy yorkies with good temperaments etc, buyers have a life time responsibilty in providing these babies with a home. Many breeders on here offer the option to help rehome a yorkie purchased from them or they will take the yorkie back into their own home if possible to avoid adding to the shelters. I disagree with this, that Most of you here don't seem to grasp that the Yorkie breed is not in a bubble. I am sure YT members are well informed that there are many yorkies in shelters needing homes, people here do suggest adoption first, I have seen it. YT has a Yorkie Rescue section in this forum. The truth is everyone has a right to breed their dog, whether we agree or not. Breeders have a choice to neuter and spay before selling to avoid unplanned, uneducated breedings. What you may see as unethical in a breeder another person may not agree. Its just impossible for everyone to feel the same about everything. In another thread you commented, stupid people would only pay money for a mutt. I found this rude, insulting. We have several members on here that have "morkies", "Yorkipoos", which they chose to pay money for and love dearly. I respect their choice and I would never make such a statement.
__________________ Lyz |
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