Mentoring Contract

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by Francie

This might seem like an obvious question...but why not neuter/spay the pup before he goes to his/her new home? Seems it would avoid a whole lot of headaches...not to mention paperwork....

Francie

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29229

[Francie]

Originally Posted by SolnzeUSB

could be age

Oh yeah....the age...hmm...what IS a safe age to neuter?


Francie

[Francie]

Originally Posted by YorkieRini

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29229

Wow!...Thanks for the threads....but gee...it raises more questions then answers them... I'm not sure I'd WANT to spay my dog...after reading the cons...yikes!



Francie

[wnalegria]

Any contract that has stipulations in it could be considered a mentoring contract- IMHO If your contract states that any puppies out of this male or female will be placed as companion puppies are you not be mentored? If your contract states that you can not use your male on any outside breedings or the breeder has to approve who can breed too -are you are being mentored? Could be.

I have two contracts that state I am not to breed my males to 4 or 5 breeders- is this in the contract because these other breeders have poor quality dogs or because of another situation. Onlt the breedersof the males can answer that question- they wrote the contracts.

The original breeder of your male or female is not placing the trust in you that you will know the difference between a companion puppy and a show puppy at this time and that you may never. Many a show puppy is placed as a companion because we do have more requests for them then show babies.

IMHO- I want to see quality babies out there in the showring that have KLS in thier names- I want to stand ringside and see that baby out of my male or female strutting his or her stuff. I want my dogs to make a positive impact on the breed.

Do I intend to sit and stuff my views or thoughts down someones throat and try and run their lives. No thank you. I have a breeder at this time who has gone so far as to tell me where I can place my dogs on my website and what can or should not be on it. Why? all because they are on as co-owners.

When I was young and learning- Chuck and Fay Hudson, Archie B. James, Nancy Donavan, Carol Fencil, Joan and Janet, Zee Daricek and Ferdinand Rent and many more took their time to talk to me and educate me about this breed. They mentored me- when I had questions- I asked-did I purchase dogs from all these folks no- they did this becasue they cared for the breed and gave of themselves to someone who wanted to learn.

IMHO I think that some of us have swelled heads. Ww think that we are bigger, better and greater then those we think that are beneath us. We need to sit back and take a look at things. How much do we really know when we keep buying and placing or selling dogs because they do not meet our expectations. Purchsing A puppy or adult and it not meeting our expectations happens to all of us- but when I read of this over and over again with the same folks my thought is- something is missing. We have not learned from our first mistakes and keep making it again and again because we have the money to buy more and just throw away that puppy or dog.

It is suprising that by working with someone you often can help them learn about the breed and what is good and what is not going to help the breed. All it took was some time on your part and a genuine commitment. I am here for those who buy a puppy from me. I answer all their questions, I give support- I explain why I have bred or why I like a certain breeding. Will be the first to tell you when I don't like something. Ask anyone who knows me about my thoughts on Buster and they will tell what I do not like about him.
None of my dogs are perfect- and they never will be. Are they nice quality yes. I place with limited and full restriction on papers. Some of my dogs are dual registered so that I can also show UKC. I am not ashamed of it.

IMHO- I think that the dispute with Kim needs to be laid to rest. If this thread is another way to air dirty laundry then you need to stop. IMHO The family here at YT does not need to drawn into picking sides. As we have been party to before there are two sides to each story. The problems between Kim and her former client are their problems. They need to work it out and I am sure will work it out. Placing gasoline on the fire is not the way to get the situation settled.

[Gazou]

IMO..... Nobody is FORCED to sign a contract . When I purchased Gazou and Heidi , I read the contracts , they were very strict and I sign them . The breeders didn't forced me to sign , on the contrary , I was really happy because I knew that I would have something to prove .

Actually , the contracts on them are off .

[wnalegria]

I learned a lesson a hardway on one purchase - I did read my contract nothing in there I could not abide by- signed as new owner and on the papers gave them back to the breeder to sign and they signed themselves back on as co-owners. Wham what do you do- they had my money as I paid for the dog several weeks before this meeting. I trusted- and was very upset and suprised at the outcome. I had two choices walk out with the papers that made me owner or walk out with nothing but the dog whose was at my home and not be able to register any puppies.. If someone wants to take advantage of you they will - I learned- what goes aroung comes around and this breeder will have some one be one up on them someday. A very sad situation on what could have been a wonderful relationship.

[Yorkieville200]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

I learned a lesson a hardway on one purchase - I did read my contract nothing in there I could not abide by- signed as new owner and on the papers gave them back to the breeder to sign and they signed themselves back on as co-owners. Wham what do you do- they had my money as I paid for the dog several weeks before this meeting. I trusted- and was very upset and suprised at the outcome. I had two choices walk out with the papers that made me owner or walk out with nothing but the dog whose was at my home and not be able to register any puppies.. If someone wants to take advantage of you they will - I learned- what goes aroung comes around and this breeder will have some one be one up on them someday. A very sad situation on what could have been a wonderful

Wow, Kathy. That was really sneaky of that breeder. (Besides being a dirty deal.) But, like you said, "What goes around, comes around."

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

I learned a lesson a hardway on one purchase - I did read my contract nothing in there I could not abide by- signed as new owner and on the papers gave them back to the breeder to sign and they signed themselves back on as co-owners. Wham what do you do- they had my money as I paid for the dog several weeks before this meeting. I trusted- and was very upset and suprised at the outcome. I had two choices walk out with the papers that made me owner or walk out with nothing but the dog whose was at my home and not be able to register any puppies.. If someone wants to take advantage of you they will - I learned- what goes aroung comes around and this breeder will have some one be one up on them someday. A very sad situation on what could have been a wonderful relationship.

Thanks for the warning. I would never think that someone would do that. Definitely starting things off on the right foot that's for sure.

[wnalegria]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

Any contract that has stipulations in it could be considered a mentoring contract- IMHO If your contract states that any puppies out of this male or female will be placed as companion puppies are you not be mentored? If your contract states that you can not use your male on any outside breedings or the breeder has to approve who can breed too -are you are being mentored? Could be.

I have two contracts that state I am not to breed my males to 4 or 5 breeders- is this in the contract because these other breeders have poor quality dogs or because of another situation. Onlt the breedersof the males can answer that question- they wrote the contracts.

The original breeder of your male or female is not placing the trust in you that you will know the difference between a companion puppy and a show puppy at this time and that you may never. Many a show puppy is placed as a companion because we do have more requests for them then show babies.

IMHO- I want to see quality babies out there in the showring that have KLS in thier names- I want to stand ringside and see that baby out of my male or female strutting his or her stuff. I want my dogs to make a positive impact on the breed.

Do I intend to sit and stuff my views or thoughts down someones throat and try and run their lives. No thank you. I have a breeder at this time who has gone so far as to tell me where I can place my dogs on my website and what can or should not be on it. Why? all because they are on as co-owners.

When I was young and learning- Chuck and Fay Hudson, Archie B. James, Nancy Donavan, Carol Fencil, Joan and Janet, Zee Daricek and Ferdinand Rent and many more took their time to talk to me and educate me about this breed. They mentored me- when I had questions- I asked-did I purchase dogs from all these folks no- they did this becasue they cared for the breed and gave of themselves to someone who wanted to learn.

IMHO I think that some of us have swelled heads. Ww think that we are bigger, better and greater then those we think that are beneath us. We need to sit back and take a look at things. How much do we really know when we keep buying and placing or selling dogs because they do not meet our expectations. Purchsing A puppy or adult and it not meeting our expectations happens to all of us- but when I read of this over and over again with the same folks my thought is- something is missing. We have not learned from our first mistakes and keep making it again and again because we have the money to buy more and just throw away that puppy or dog.

It is suprising that by working with someone you often can help them learn about the breed and what is good and what is not going to help the breed. All it took was some time on your part and a genuine commitment. I am here for those who buy a puppy from me. I answer all their questions, I give support- I explain why I have bred or why I like a certain breeding. Will be the first to tell you when I don't like something. Ask anyone who knows me about my thoughts on Buster and they will tell what I do not like about him.
None of my dogs are perfect- and they never will be. Are they nice quality yes. I place with limited and full restriction on papers. Some of my dogs are dual registered so that I can also show UKC. I am not ashamed of it.

IMHO- I think that the dispute with Kim needs to be laid to rest. If this thread is another way to air dirty laundry then you need to stop. IMHO The family here at YT does not need to drawn into picking sides. As we have been party to before there are two sides to each story. The problems between Kim and her former client are their problems. They need to work it out and I am sure will work it out. Placing gasoline on the fire is not the way to get the situation settled.

Wanted to clarify my earlier post- It was never placed in writing in my contract or any any other written document provided to me by the breeder who the 4 or 5 breeders were that I was not allowed to provide stud service too. My goal was to add this dog to my existing lines as it complimented
what I had and what I was striving to acheive under KLS I really had not planned on doing a lot of outside breeding. I liked the look of this bloodline and felt that a lot of time and effort had gone into the breeding program over the years.

I just wanted to show that no matter how much experience you may have or think you have some of these contract are downright goofy. We are turning something that could be fun and a great experience into a nightmere of this
is a breach of contract or this makes you in default. Things need to be clear clean upfront and to the point we are making things way too complicated and making more of a mess. I have to agree that if I want a technical high and might contract- I will go and have a attorney draw it up- so hopefully it makes sense for both the buyer and me breeder and we both understand our obligations.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

Things need to be clear clean upfront and to the point .

This is what clearly written contracts provide.

[yorluvr]

[QUOTE=BabyFidgette]This is a serious question: How can a breeders lines get messed up? If a person buys a puppy and doesn't breed it the line stops. So what's the difference if a person wants to breed their puppy?
I for one think it should be up to the owner if they want to breed their dog or not.

I don't have a lot of puppies, maybe 2 litters per year. So, I am always looking for that special show pup. When I sell a puppy for a pet, I am selling as a pet for a reason. Perhaps the bite is off, soft coat texture, too small or large. I put in my contracts WHY the pup is being sold as a pet. If I thought the dog was worthy of reproducing, I would have kept it for myself. I have always sold on limited registration and spay neuter contracts, but am thinking more of the line of spaying everything before it leaves my home. Then, there is no interpretation for error.
Julie

[yorluvr]

[QUOTE=wnalegria]Any contract that has stipulations in it could be considered a mentoring contract- IMHO If your contract states that any puppies out of this male or female will be placed as companion puppies are you not be mentored? If your contract states that you can not use your male on any outside breedings or the breeder has to approve who can breed too -are you are being mentored? Could be.

I have two contracts that state I am not to breed my males to 4 or 5 breeders- is this in the contract because these other breeders have poor quality dogs or because of another situation. Onlt the breedersof the males can answer that question- they wrote the contracts.


I was burned a few years ago, and went to my attorney and had him draw up contracts for me. They are long but will stand up in court. I do have a list of people that my dogs cannot be sold to, bred to, or shown by. The names are listed, the reasons are not. That is MY business. I also remain co-owner of any show dogs I sell till they receive their AKC championship. On bitches, I remain co-owner until I receive my puppy back, whether first or second litter, which is my option. On the other side, when I have purchased puppies, never have I bought one without a co-ownership agreement. That is pretty much standard practice. I also retain stud rights on any male I sell to any bitch I own, co-own, or lease without compensation to the buyer.

I don't sell that many show dogs, because I keep the best. But I do have enforcable contracts whether sold for pet, show, obedience, or adult placement. Each is different because of the terms. Perhaps part of this is my years of nursing.....not documented, not done. If people are traveling a long distance to purchase a pup, I also send them a copy of my contract before they come. Then, if there are any issues, I have saved them a trip.
Julie

[shyorkies]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

Any contract that has stipulations in it could be considered a mentoring contract- IMHO If your contract states that any puppies out of this male or female will be placed as companion puppies are you not be mentored? If your contract states that you can not use your male on any outside breedings or the breeder has to approve who can breed too -are you are being mentored? Could be.

I have two contracts that state I am not to breed my males to 4 or 5 breeders- is this in the contract because these other breeders have poor quality dogs or because of another situation. Onlt the breedersof the males can answer that question- they wrote the contracts.

The original breeder of your male or female is not placing the trust in you that you will know the difference between a companion puppy and a show puppy at this time and that you may never. Many a show puppy is placed as a companion because we do have more requests for them then show babies.

IMHO- I want to see quality babies out there in the showring that have KLS in thier names- I want to stand ringside and see that baby out of my male or female strutting his or her stuff. I want my dogs to make a positive impact on the breed.

Do I intend to sit and stuff my views or thoughts down someones throat and try and run their lives. No thank you. I have a breeder at this time who has gone so far as to tell me where I can place my dogs on my website and what can or should not be on it. Why? all because they are on as co-owners.

When I was young and learning- Chuck and Fay Hudson, Archie B. James, Nancy Donavan, Carol Fencil, Joan and Janet, Zee Daricek and Ferdinand Rent and many more took their time to talk to me and educate me about this breed. They mentored me- when I had questions- I asked-did I purchase dogs from all these folks no- they did this becasue they cared for the breed and gave of themselves to someone who wanted to learn.

IMHO I think that some of us have swelled heads. Ww think that we are bigger, better and greater then those we think that are beneath us. We need to sit back and take a look at things. How much do we really know when we keep buying and placing or selling dogs because they do not meet our expectations. Purchsing A puppy or adult and it not meeting our expectations happens to all of us- but when I read of this over and over again with the same folks my thought is- something is missing. We have not learned from our first mistakes and keep making it again and again because we have the money to buy more and just throw away that puppy or dog.

It is suprising that by working with someone you often can help them learn about the breed and what is good and what is not going to help the breed. All it took was some time on your part and a genuine commitment. I am here for those who buy a puppy from me. I answer all their questions, I give support- I explain why I have bred or why I like a certain breeding. Will be the first to tell you when I don't like something. Ask anyone who knows me about my thoughts on Buster and they will tell what I do not like about him.
None of my dogs are perfect- and they never will be. Are they nice quality yes. I place with limited and full restriction on papers. Some of my dogs are dual registered so that I can also show UKC. I am not ashamed of it.

IMHO- I think that the dispute with Kim needs to be laid to rest. If this thread is another way to air dirty laundry then you need to stop. IMHO The family here at YT does not need to drawn into picking sides. As we have been party to before there are two sides to each story. The problems between Kim and her former client are their problems. They need to work it out and I am sure will work it out. Placing gasoline on the fire is not the way to get the situation settled.

I have NOT been breeding long and just started showing about 1 1/2 years ago, but what I do know is that when you are wanting someone to trust you with their hardwork it almost always comes with a contract and a co-ownership! Most of the yorkie show people I know have been breeding and showing for years, infact some of them over 30 years! The dog/dogs they are entrusting you with have their blood, sweat and tears! The dog/dogs they are placing with you are from their breedings and their hardwork, signing a contract and them remaining on as co-owners is a small price to pay! I also feel that the breeders have a right to state who they may want their dogs bred to or who they do not want their dogs bred to.. I also feel it would be their right to decide what is placed as a pet puppy or placed as show potential.. After all like I stated ealier it is their hardwork they are placing with you, they are handing you a dog that would take you years to accomplish on your own!

If you did not want to have the breeders stay on as co-owners or sign a contract with them, why did you not tell them that you were not interested in purchasing from them?? As there are many yorkie show breeders in the US..

As mentioned earlier I have not been doing this long, but I also had our attorney help me with my contract for when I place a puppy.. As I do not want there to be NO misunderstandings and if they do NOT wish to sign my contract they can purchase their puppy elsewhere!

Melanie

[luvdorkyyorkies]

Do individuals regularly and willingly agree to co ownership?
I bought a male from a show breeder, the dogs are very nice and sound. They guarantee everything under the sun, they are that committed to clean dogs and have been breeding alot of the same lines for so many years. One of the studs there is a 5 way champion.
But the male was bought to improve my lines, not to show. I didnt have to sign a co ownership. The boy is mine completely.
They did have some stipulations. No breeding to my CKC dogs, limited registrations, be selective, full reg on very few.
Extremely nice and helpful....salt of the earth.straight forward.
I just think that if you pay a large amount of money for a dog that the dog should be yours.....but thats JMO..to me its the original breeder running their breeding program and yours too with coownership.
But then again if someone signs a contract with those clauses, then they agree.........its just surprizing to me that people do it. But Im not in the show world, this must be the norm?
I really just want to keep improving my lines for my pet buyers and if I get a show dog from them one day it would be nice.
All the contracts and stipulations sure do take the fun out of it though.
Im so glad their are show breeders out there so common without all the bells and whistles, who will entrust you to improve the breed with their hardwork. Without them I would have a heck of time improving...I just wouldnt feel comfortable co owning. I would be afraid alot of disagreements would come up and there would be hard feelings.
One of the nicest breeders comes here regularly and has been such a great help to me. The only reason I didnt buy a puppy from them is because I had the oppurtunity to buy an adult and start improving immediately. Id love to buy a pup from them someday. They help mentor me, even though, I have asked 5 zillion questions, talked and talked about buying one of their dogs, then bought another........they still help me..........now thats a sweetheart!

[shyorkies]

Originally Posted by luvdorkyyorkies

Do individuals regularly and willingly agree to co ownership?
I bought a male from a show breeder, the dogs are very nice and sound. They guarantee everything under the sun, they are that committed to clean dogs and have been breeding alot of the same lines for so many years. One of the studs there is a 5 way champion.
But the male was bought to improve my lines, not to show. I didnt have to sign a co ownership. The boy is mine completely.
They did have some stipulations. No breeding to my CKC dogs, limited registrations, be selective, full reg on very few.
Extremely nice and helpful....salt of the earth.straight forward.
I just think that if you pay a large amount of money for a dog that the dog should be yours.....but thats JMO..to me its the original breeder running their breeding program and yours too with coownership.
But then again if someone signs a contract with those clauses, then they agree.........its just surprizing to me that people do it. But Im not in the show world, this must be the norm?
I really just want to keep improving my lines for my pet buyers and if I get a show dog from them one day it would be nice.
All the contracts and stipulations sure do take the fun out of it though.
Im so glad their are show breeders out there so common without all the bells and whistles, who will entrust you to improve the breed with their hardwork. Without them I would have a heck of time improving...I just wouldnt feel comfortable co owning. I would be afraid alot of disagreements would come up and there would be hard feelings.
One of the nicest breeders comes here regularly and has been such a great help to me. The only reason I didnt buy a puppy from them is because I had the oppurtunity to buy an adult and start improving immediately. Id love to buy a pup from them someday. They help mentor me, even though, I have asked 5 zillion questions, talked and talked about buying one of their dogs, then bought another........they still help me..........now thats a sweetheart!

Kelly,
You are very lucky to have what you have and NOT to have signed a contract at least.. I apologize for being honest and do not mean to sound harsh, so please accept my apology before I get started..

I am just new to this.. I reseached the breed for more than two years and altogether have been involved in yorkies for 5 years.. But most of your show breeders at least the ones I know or have spoke to would not place a yorkie of their hardwork into a home that strictly breeders and has CKC (Continental Kennel Club) dogs.. So as I stated you are very lucky and I personally would thank my lucky stars for the breeders that have helped you.. When I purchase a dog from a show breeder I sign a contract, but they do not always stay on as co-owner.. But like I stated in an earlier post they are handing you years of their hardwork and a contract spells out their request in black and white, there are no misunderstanding.. In a perfect world there would be no contracts or co-owners, but this is far from a perfect world.. Alot of people tell you what they want you to hear and you find out the hard way that they lied to you just to purchase one of your dogs!

I wish you the best of luck in your program..
Melanie