What does this mean??

[BamaFan121s]

Thank you Carter'sMom and Platinum...

[JUDY's2yorkies]

On a siamese cat,the appleface means back like they used to be before they were bread to have the long skinny face,on a yorkie sounds like trouble to me,apple means round on a siamese cat

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

I agree with the others and really do appreciate your forthrightness as I and other non-breeders struggle with this issue.

Here is the thread I started a while back asking this question I have pondered for some time and why I asked you to share your experience since you were so gracious to do so.
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24361

Like I said, I have no problem with breeding for profit since breeding is such hard work and you are risking lives when you do it, but there just seem to be a lot of breeders who are horrified with the suggestion that this may be partially their motivation, and they tend to make negative comments about those breeders who admit to the fact that making money is one of their motivators.

This is why I ask the question because if I lost my female, as so many have, I don't think the gratification from knowing that four people didn't get puppies from a puppymill would be enough for me......not that any amount of money would be either...so I am back to the same quandry.

Is there a motivation worthy of the risk involved FOR ME? The answer at this point in time is no.

That said, I try very hard not to judge those who do breed because I do know how hard it is, and I am learning things that can be done to decrease the risk to the female like using a reproductive specialist and having her evaluated ahead of time, etc. I guess, to get back to the topic of this thread in summarizing......I just wish we could stop being so negative toward breeders in general......if they want to use descriptive words to advertise what their puppies look like, then let them. If it turns out they mislead or were lying about it then there is always the laws against fraud and those practices. Consumers as a whole are pretty savvy and don't allow themselves to be taken advantageof often. In my opinion it is the minority who use those words to mislead or misrepresent.

I may be naive or just lucky in the breeders I have come into contact with, but the majority had the best interests of the pups at heart and I have never met a "puppymiller". Even the one show breeder I met who was money hungry for sure ($10,000 for her tiny one) had a great set up, the dogs were welll cared for and she had a good reputation. The one I met who was questionable still had a lot of love for her dogs and would never have done anything to intentionally mistreat them in any way.

[StewiesMom]

JMO:

Baby doll face bugs me the most. Short or flat faced is more descriptive IMO. What the hell is a baby doll? My little honey has a medium sized snout (not flat, but not as long as some I've seen. It looks longer in some pics, but in person I'd say it's about 1" or 1.5".) I've never seen a Yorkie with a face I woudn't describe as a dollbaby/babydoll face. Baby doll to me means "darling". Nothing about a flat face to me is "darling". Flat-face or extremely short snout would be a better way to describe it.
and while I'm at it:

domed skull for applehead
below standard weight for teacup or mini or micro or whatever
compact body for "cobby" (though cobby doesn't bother me in the least)

Let's stop trying to make all these differences in Yorkies sound so cute and special or even RARE.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I agree with the others and really do appreciate your forthrightness as I and other non-breeders struggle with this issue.

Here is the thread I started a while back asking this question I have pondered for some time and why I asked you to share your experience since you were so gracious to do so.
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24361

Thank you SoCal for expressing your appreciation in my sharing. Really, I don't have any problem whatsoever discussing my breeding practices and am more than thrilled anytime anyone takes something beneficial and helpful from it. It is a true compliment.
Also, if someone does manage to make any sense of profit from breeding that is awesome, so long as the best interest of the dogs involved is put first and formost. As for my choice to breed my pet. Yes, I am well aware of the risks involved. I also feel that if you are well-educated, the female is properly cared for and the pregancy/delivery as a whole are handled properly, the risk of serious health problems is greatly reduced. I realize there are misfortunes never-the-less, but no more than say a human who decides to have a child would face. Would you consider these risks worth it?
I remember that thread very vividly...I believe it was your comments on the impossibility to properly care for the dogs if you also have an outside job that stuck with me most...a comment that I still don't understand. Ahh, but that is a different debate altogether, isn't it?
I appreciate the opportunity to explain my motivations to you and am still willing to answer any questions you may have in the future regarding my breeding practices--I stand firmly behind them. I think maybe at this time it would be best for us just to agree to disagree? Yes, I think so. Now if you will excuse me, I have to warm up for a little Boom-Boom tree now and there is some ice cream somewhere that I am sure I need to eat.

[red98vett]

LOL Kristy !! Thanks for getting this back on track - You sure don't pull any punches in your posts girl !

BAMA...Misty - What a good post you did - I wasn't going to post in this thread again - getting too far off topic .... but I wanted to tell you that.

[shelbysmom]

I may be naive or just lucky in the breeders I have come into contact with, but the majority had the best interests of the pups at heart and I have never met a "puppymiller". Even the one show breeder I met who was money hungry for sure ($10,000 for her tiny one) had a great set up, the dogs were welll cared for and she had a good reputation. The one I met who was questionable still had a lot of love for her dogs and would never have done anything to intentionally mistreat them in any way.

[/QUOTE]

Yup, we went through some of the same experiences but part of our interpretation and direction differed. Not saying either of us is right or wrong, just different. I think the ONLY thing lucky about meeting the "money hungry" breeder is that walking out on her led me to Shelby. I also question some of her breeding practices now that I know better and I feel very relieved that I didn't support her business. Her good reputation is definitely past tense for moi.

Walking out after holding a beautiful warm puppy with NO PUPPY at home after looking for sooooooo long was one of the most difficult things I have ever done. It literally made me sick.

I would just advise all people looking for a puppy to take their time and not even look at puppies until learning about the breeder. The breeder is EVERYTHING. If you aren't comfortable with their advertising, their phone presence, their breeding practices, their merchandising....do NOT go see their puppies. Listen to the red flag warnings going off in your head.

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

SoCal--No offense taken, I would be happy to respect your request to share what knowledge of breeding I have with you. I understand that the opinions of a more "seasoned breeder" would be more highly regarded than my own as you are well aware of the fact that the recent litter I had was the first of my own. I believe I told you this in a former thread regarding Theriogenologist? If you recall correctly, you quoted me and made the assumption that all breeders should know what a theriogenologist is? I can look up the thread for you if that will help?

Anyway, to answer your questions:
Years breeding Yorkies-I started working with a breeder of Shih Tzu's in 2000 who has been breeding for over 20 years. She also had a Yorkie, not bred, pet only that I fell in love with. In 2002, myself and my father began researching Yorkies an working with a 15+ year experienced breeder who is also a close family friend, who is also who my father got Cody, our sire, from. We worked both with them and with our vet to learn about the breed, what to expect, how to select a dog, etc. They were also beneficial in helping us to learn about desired genetic traits, which was more like a refresher course for myself (and my father) as I attended medical school and studied a great deal in cellular biology, including genetic engineering. Once we had Cody and Trixie, we continued to work with our vet, the Shih-Tzu breeder, Cody's breeder and Trixie's breeder and another Yorkie breeder with whom we met through our vet, and eventually another breeder in North Alabama from whom we eventually got Abby, my sister's dog.

Number of litters per year-this is easy...1. Trixie is my only dog. I have no desire to have or breed any dog that cannot be my 'pet' first. I don't think it is a bad thing, it's just not what is best for me, nor do I desire to show.

Club affiliations-unfortunately, there are no local YTCA affiliations in my area, at least not that I am aware of. If there were, we would have considered having AKC reg dogs more rather than CKC reg. But again, we looked for a desireable dog, not a desireable piece of paper, as we had no intention of showing. One breeder we worked with was originally from Florida and was affiliated w/ the Central Fla YTC...Cody's breeder--he is both AKC and CKC reg.

website-don't have one...is there any reason why I should that I am not aware of...is there something specific that you feel would be on a website that I can tell you about?

Breeding philosophies-not really sure what you mean, I would be happy to elaborate here if you can be a little more specific

Raised in the home or out-in the home, again, Trixie is my only dog and only goes out when she has to potty as we have an abundance of wildlife in the area...including Hawks!

Not breeding under 4 or 5 lb females-would not breed under 5 lbs because of the high risk of health problems-Trixie is 6 3/4 lbs, Cody is 5 1/2 and Abby is 5 lbs, but still growing

Breeding for the standard or for another "looK"--our dogs to meet the standard for the breed, yet, if their look was 'undesirable,' which I suppose is a matter of opinion, we would not breed them

Price range-we asked $1000.00 for our females and $800.00 for our males. That is slightly above the 'norm' here. We hoped that if we weren't the lowest around, that would discourage 'impulse buyers' and potential 'millers.' Luckily, all of the owners were referred to us, 2 by a friend, 1 is a friend, and 1 by our vet. Once we learned more about them as individuals, we told them our 'real price,' which was lower.

Buyer Qualifications required-this differs on a case by case basis. Not to be biased, but if anyone had shown up in a clunker and look as if they had not had a bath in weeks, they would have gone home empty handed. All owners were very knowledgeable about the breed-3 of the 4 had previously owned Yorkies. We'd said we would ask to see their home and visit with their pup to see how he would adjust, but because of the way we met them this time, we did not do such. We already knew them. We require that they be kept indoors...again because of the wildlife and we state that we will randomly contact their vets to ensure the dogs are getting proper routine care. It states in our sales agreement that if at any time they fail to do so, they will have to surrender the dog back to us. Anything specific here I could elaborate on.

Contract or not-yes, what specifically do you want to know about it?

Health guarantee-yes, limited to what can be classified as a genetically inherited disorder, not injury, neglect etc. We have also had the parents thouroughly screened and do so annually as well as complete vet records for the grand dam and sire and provide copies of such to the owners

I think that covers everything, although brief. I would be happy to elaborate on any of this if you would like for me to, just let me know. True, Trixie had as close to a textbook and perfect delivery and pregnancy as you can have, which I realize is not always the case. We had no outrageous out-of-pocket expenses for emergencies or unforseen costs, so yeah, we do have some profit, but not much, to show for it. It's sitting in a separate savings accout where it will remain until 1) we can be sure there will be no complications with the pups and 2) it is time to breed again, which who knows where we will be in a year...may not want to do it again at that point. We had 4 healthy pups, no stillborns and no runt and all survived and are in perfect health. Apparently, I prepared myself correctly? I would like to think I did something right. As far as my motivation, I can assure you that it is not ego, nor is it for profit. If you have ever looked at pups that you bred and they are healthy, they go to good homes, you have the honor of knowing that it was because of YOUR efforts, you promoted good breed standards and you kept 4 people away from a puppy mill, that is the biggest reward and motivation of all.

I think I have answered all of your questions. Please let me know if I have missed anything or if there is anything I can elaborate on. Again, I don't claim to be an expert, but if you look back over my past replys, I don't think you will find a case where I have given "bad advice" nor do I make a habit out of posting if I don't think I am knowledgeable about what I say. If I have, please let me know and I will be more than happy to retract the statement.

WOW! Now, this is a good breeder!

[gymbo68]

Bama...I am impressed ...good grief the only detial you left out is.....well I guess that sin there too
Awesome post...if you were closer I would hope you would allow me to have one of your pups....

[wnalegria]

Cobby is a old term. I do not hear it much anymore. It means square built like a brick. Many of our dogs are not cobby anymore because we are now showing yorkies with a longer neck and more leg then those of the 70's and 80's.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by gymbo68

Bama...I am impressed ...good grief the only detial you left out is.....well I guess that sin there too
Awesome post...if you were closer I would hope you would allow me to have one of your pups....

But of course ...thanks for the nice comment.
Sane to you txshopper...thanks!

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

Cobby is a old term. I do not hear it much anymore. It means square built like a brick. Many of our dogs are not cobby anymore because we are now showing yorkies with a longer neck and more leg then those of the 70's and 80's.

Very interesting! From a shower's standpoint, are the longer necks and legs more favorable in the ring? Do the longer legs benefit them as far as their gait is concerned?

[wnalegria]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Very interesting! From a shower's standpoint, are the longer necks and legs more favorable in the ring? Do the longer legs benefit them as far as their gait is concerned?

If you go back and look at many of the dogs from the 70's and early 80's you will find that many are smaller then todays dog. Shorter neck and back and not as long on legs. Times have changed- My Dixie is cobbie- finished Champion in UKC- have been told that he will be finished as International CH. but would waste my money trying to finish him AKC.

Many of the judges like the dog with leg- shows more action and movement and the longer neck is in proportion to this increase ion the leg. Imagine a dog with the longer legs and a shorter neck. Yuck"" would look funny in the show ring. When you show your dog you must find the judges who like your "type" of dog. Certain parts of the country prefer a certain type of dog also- so you have to be very wise in who you pick to show under and where you decide to show your dog.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Correct me if I am wrong since I do not show any dogs in conformation, but from what I have heard from conformation show people is that what wins in the show ring varies even from locale to locale and from judge to judge and year to year. I remember YorkieRose commenting on this when she moved to Florida and how a different "look" and even size I think was doing well in Florida whereas it might not have up north where she came from.

I have even heard from some that the smaller yorkies are actually competitive in the ring in some areas.

And some years, a longer leg is in and then the next year, we are back to a shorter leg....etc.

So, I think when we talk about different "looks" and the "flavor of the month" I think there are definitely preferences by different judges and some will come away from a show wondering how in the heck such and such a dog won, etc.?

It is very subjective and political afterall even within the "standard" as written.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

If you go back and look at many of the dogs from the 70's and early 80's you will find that many are smaller then todays dog. Shorter neck and back and not as long on legs. Times have changed- My Dixie is cobbie- finished Champion in UKC- have been told that he will be finished as International CH. but would waste my money trying to finish him AKC.

Many of the judges like the dog with leg- shows more action and movement and the longer neck is in proportion to this increase ion the leg. Imagine a dog with the longer legs and a shorter neck. Yuck"" would look funny in the show ring. When you show your dog you must find the judges who like your "type" of dog. Certain parts of the country prefer a certain type of dog also- so you have to be very wise in who you pick to show under and where you decide to show your dog.

Yes, I imagine that would look rather funny! Thanks for this insight...this is very interesting!