What does this mean??

[BabyFidgette]

Kimberley,

You're right...I didn't do my research before buying my Yorkie. I knew I wanted one, and that was it. I went to the petstore, and bought her. I am proud of myself for doing TONS of research now. I think, better late than never. And I won't go to those Pet Hell Stores anymore. Below is the link I got my puppy from. Looks like a decent enough site for uneducated buyer...that's what I thought.

www.shakeapaw.net

Nicole<----------getting more educated by the minute because she is now ADDICTED to yorkietalk.com!!!

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

By definition, this is what AKC says about the standard with the head...followed by MY OPINIONS...

Head
Small and rather flat on top, the skull not too prominent or round, the muzzle not too long, with the bite neither undershot nor overshot and teeth sound. Either scissors bite or level bite is acceptable. The nose is black. Eyes are medium in size and not too prominent; dark in color and sparkling with a sharp, intelligent expression. Eye rims are dark. Ears are small, V-shaped, carried erect and set not too far apart.

So, you don't have a website and are selling pups. They call and ask you if the pups have a baby doll face...what do you tell them? "WELL, THE MUZZLE IS NOT TOO LONG". They ask you, well, what does that mean? "WELL, JUST AS AKC STANDARD STATES...THE MUZZLE IS NOT TOO LONG". Sorry, but I think the seller is going to look like someone that doesn't know what they are doing or talking about. The public uses these terms.

Here's what it says on the body...

Body
Well proportioned and very compact. The back is rather short, the back line level, with height at shoulder the same as at the rump.

Caller wants to know if they are cobby bodied. Breeder states that the dog has a compact body. Caller states..."OH, IS THAT A COBBY BODY?" Seller states, no, a compact body. Should buyer know that they are talking about the same thing? Sure, but a lot of these buyers may not know the difference.

Speaking with other breeders, I've heard baby doll face or a short button nose....and will leave it at that.

My opinions to Kimberley's

As a breeder that puts my all into my breeding program, I do not 'sell myself' by using the 'language'. To the contrary, I need to be sold on the persons interested in a puppy of mine. That may sound harsh but it's how I prefer to place my puppies; with someone that has some knowledge and has done some research. Does that limit the people that can buy my puppies? Probably, but that's not important to me. I know what I feel comfortable with and I will not compromise that for the sale of a puppy.

Kimberley,
I hope no offense was taken. I was not saying that's what you meant or that you were talking directly to me. But I saw an opportunity to say my "fifty cents"..lololol..so I did.

[shelbysmom]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

HAHA! so true! But how many really do research before buying a yorkie...or how many don't do a research before buying one? It happens all the time. Look at all the first time yorkie owners that come here with their questions. Everyone has to start somewhere.

I agree and still learning.

I did tons of research but didn't realize all Yorkies don't look the same or that there are breeders actually trying to make them look different than standard. I knew some were better looking and I knew finding a good breeder was going to take time.

The first time I heard the babydoll face term a breeder was explaining that the bd face one was more $$$. I asked her what that meant and she said they look like they ran into a wall. hmmm. that's a good thing right?

Yes, they are cute. (I almost bought one) All Yorkies are cute. All puppies are cute. Millions of cute dogs out there, purebred, mutts and designer pups. But who do you want to buy from?

Everyone just needs to set their own "standards" whether a breeder or a buyer. Do business with people you respect. Buy from breeders that have programs you want to support. I am relieved I ended up buying from a long time breeder who is extremely cranky about the standard. No surprises. My pup is just what I imagined when I didn't even know there were other versions out there. I am not judging, not saying my dog is best. Just saying I am not disappointed she looks like the Yorkies in the books

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Monica~ I think Gus is one of the cutest looking yorkies on YT!! I love his look ...I know, I know, they are ALL adorable, lol, but certain ones just get me and he is one!!!!

Nicole~ I can tell that you are doing your research just from this thread alone and you got a baby to cherish and maybe you will get another one day and it may be different, but you will love them the same just as we do our children. They are all different and unique and have different things to offer.

Bamafan~ This is not a challenge and I ask with the utmost respect and with no intention of offending, but I hope you will understand our request to share with us your experience as a yorkie breeder (how many years, litters, breeding dogs, etc) and what your motivation for breeding is?

In fact, I agree with Irene that it would be nice to have a registry of sorts for the members here who are breeders where they give their stats and their breeding philosophies. I think it is important when one holds oneself out to be an expert on a subject for those who read the opinions of the experts to know the backgrounds and experience of those experts.

I mean I would tend to accept the advice and opinions of a breeder with 20 or 30 years of experience breeding yorkies over a different opinion of one who had only been breeding for 4 or 5 years for example. It only makes sense. On the other hand, I would also give more weight to the opinions of a new breeder who used a reproductive specialist in her program and kept her dogs in her home as opposed to in crates or cages, etc. over a show breeder with 15 years experience with dogs in crates in another building who are not family members but show pieces not allowed to be real dogs...if you know what I am saying.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Here is Irene's thread about a breeder Registry
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26110

Maybe a breeder could start a thread in this section with categories like

Years breeding Yorkies
Number of litters per year
Club affiliations
website
Breeding philosophies
Raised in the home or out
Not breeding under 4 or 5 lb females
Breeding for the standard or for another "looK"
Price range
Buyer Qualifications required
Contract or not
Health guarantee

Etc

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by BabyFidgette

Kimberley,

You're right...I didn't do my research before buying my Yorkie. I knew I wanted one, and that was it. I went to the petstore, and bought her. I am proud of myself for doing TONS of research now. I think, better late than never. And I won't go to those Pet Hell Stores anymore. Below is the link I got my puppy from. Looks like a decent enough site for uneducated buyer...that's what I thought.

www.shakeapaw.net

Nicole<----------getting more educated by the minute because she is now ADDICTED to yorkietalk.com!!!

Nicole,

Don't you ever feel bad or guilty of your decision. You need to take your experience and move forward. Know you recognize the difference you know better for next time ( you can't have just one) and you can pass the Yorkie 'Smarts' on to others. Love your little baby Fidgette to the fullest and put all this stuff in your memorybank!

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Shelby'sMom~

I think your story is one of the best as far as a first time yorkie buyer really doing her homework!!! I hope it is okay for me to tell the story....

We met during our respective searches for our babies and neither of us bought from the breeder where we met.....we both had a bad experience there and knew she was NOT who we wanted to business with even though she was a Show breeder.

I was so impressed with your resolve and the fact that you did not buy on impulse as many would have....I already had my Hefner at home so I could resist the temptation better than you who were puppiless at the time. I respect you so much.

Then we met again at the Yorkie Specialty show in Los Angeles and we met some of the same people that day and you finally connected with Shelby's breeder, also a show breeder. In between those two meetings we had also visited another show breeder's "kennel" ( at separate times and unbeknownst to the other) and were both appalled at the conditions.

I met a breeder at the show that I had talked to on the phone and who was a friend of one of the show breeders but who bred "for" the babydoll face. She didn't have any litters but a friends of hers that was her mentor did and she put me in touch with her and I found my Ava.

I tell this story because we took similar paths and dealt with similar breeders but both ended up purchasing different dogs from different types of breeders but both were very reputable if not set in their own individual ways of doing things!! LOL....you know what I mean.

There are no perfect breeders any more than there are perfect yorkies, but if you do your research and take your time you will have a better chance of not being disappointed or "surprised".

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by YorkieRini

My opinions to Kimberley's

As a breeder that puts my all into my breeding program, I do not 'sell myself' by using the 'language'. To the contrary, I need to be sold on the persons interested in a puppy of mine. That may sound harsh but it's how I prefer to place my puppies; with someone that has some knowledge and has done some research. Does that limit the people that can buy my puppies? Probably, but that's not important to me. I know what I feel comfortable with and I will not compromise that for the sale of a puppy.

Kimberley,
I hope no offense was taken. I was not saying that's what you meant or that you were talking directly to me. But I saw an opportunity to say my "fifty cents"..lololol..so I did.

No offense taken at all! When I advertised pups from my last litter, I did not include ANY of those words for the ad. In fact, baby doll was the only term that I had even heard of. I'm just trying to show it from a different view and how the majority of the public sees it. I don't get offended by those words, unless of course, someone is trying to cash in on them. You'd be amazed at the phone calls that I got for months after they were sold and most of them used those terms...that's how I got familiar with all but one of them.

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

No offense taken at all! When I advertised pups from my last litter, I did not include ANY of those words for the ad. In fact, baby doll was the only term that I had even heard of. I'm just trying to show it from a different view and how the majority of the public sees it. I don't get offended by those words, unless of course, someone is trying to cash in on them. You'd be amazed at the phone calls that I got for months after they were sold and most of them used those terms...that's how I got familiar with all but one of them.

Gotcha!

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Bamafan~ This is not a challenge and I ask with the utmost respect and with no intention of offending, but I hope you will understand our request to share with us your experience as a yorkie breeder (how many years, litters, breeding dogs, etc) and what your motivation for breeding is?

SoCal--No offense taken, I would be happy to respect your request to share what knowledge of breeding I have with you. I understand that the opinions of a more "seasoned breeder" would be more highly regarded than my own as you are well aware of the fact that the recent litter I had was the first of my own. I believe I told you this in a former thread regarding Theriogenologist? If you recall correctly, you quoted me and made the assumption that all breeders should know what a theriogenologist is? I can look up the thread for you if that will help?

Anyway, to answer your questions:
Years breeding Yorkies-I started working with a breeder of Shih Tzu's in 2000 who has been breeding for over 20 years. She also had a Yorkie, not bred, pet only that I fell in love with. In 2002, myself and my father began researching Yorkies an working with a 15+ year experienced breeder who is also a close family friend, who is also who my father got Cody, our sire, from. We worked both with them and with our vet to learn about the breed, what to expect, how to select a dog, etc. They were also beneficial in helping us to learn about desired genetic traits, which was more like a refresher course for myself (and my father) as I attended medical school and studied a great deal in cellular biology, including genetic engineering. Once we had Cody and Trixie, we continued to work with our vet, the Shih-Tzu breeder, Cody's breeder and Trixie's breeder and another Yorkie breeder with whom we met through our vet, and eventually another breeder in North Alabama from whom we eventually got Abby, my sister's dog.

Number of litters per year-this is easy...1. Trixie is my only dog. I have no desire to have or breed any dog that cannot be my 'pet' first. I don't think it is a bad thing, it's just not what is best for me, nor do I desire to show.

Club affiliations-unfortunately, there are no local YTCA affiliations in my area, at least not that I am aware of. If there were, we would have considered having AKC reg dogs more rather than CKC reg. But again, we looked for a desireable dog, not a desireable piece of paper, as we had no intention of showing. One breeder we worked with was originally from Florida and was affiliated w/ the Central Fla YTC...Cody's breeder--he is both AKC and CKC reg.

website-don't have one...is there any reason why I should that I am not aware of...is there something specific that you feel would be on a website that I can tell you about?

Breeding philosophies-not really sure what you mean, I would be happy to elaborate here if you can be a little more specific

Raised in the home or out-in the home, again, Trixie is my only dog and only goes out when she has to potty as we have an abundance of wildlife in the area...including Hawks!

Not breeding under 4 or 5 lb females-would not breed under 5 lbs because of the high risk of health problems-Trixie is 6 3/4 lbs, Cody is 5 1/2 and Abby is 5 lbs, but still growing

Breeding for the standard or for another "looK"--our dogs to meet the standard for the breed, yet, if their look was 'undesirable,' which I suppose is a matter of opinion, we would not breed them

Price range-we asked $1000.00 for our females and $800.00 for our males. That is slightly above the 'norm' here. We hoped that if we weren't the lowest around, that would discourage 'impulse buyers' and potential 'millers.' Luckily, all of the owners were referred to us, 2 by a friend, 1 is a friend, and 1 by our vet. Once we learned more about them as individuals, we told them our 'real price,' which was lower.

Buyer Qualifications required-this differs on a case by case basis. Not to be biased, but if anyone had shown up in a clunker and look as if they had not had a bath in weeks, they would have gone home empty handed. All owners were very knowledgeable about the breed-3 of the 4 had previously owned Yorkies. We'd said we would ask to see their home and visit with their pup to see how he would adjust, but because of the way we met them this time, we did not do such. We already knew them. We require that they be kept indoors...again because of the wildlife and we state that we will randomly contact their vets to ensure the dogs are getting proper routine care. It states in our sales agreement that if at any time they fail to do so, they will have to surrender the dog back to us. Anything specific here I could elaborate on.

Contract or not-yes, what specifically do you want to know about it?

Health guarantee-yes, limited to what can be classified as a genetically inherited disorder, not injury, neglect etc. We have also had the parents thouroughly screened and do so annually as well as complete vet records for the grand dam and sire and provide copies of such to the owners

I think that covers everything, although brief. I would be happy to elaborate on any of this if you would like for me to, just let me know. True, Trixie had as close to a textbook and perfect delivery and pregnancy as you can have, which I realize is not always the case. We had no outrageous out-of-pocket expenses for emergencies or unforseen costs, so yeah, we do have some profit, but not much, to show for it. It's sitting in a separate savings accout where it will remain until 1) we can be sure there will be no complications with the pups and 2) it is time to breed again, which who knows where we will be in a year...may not want to do it again at that point. We had 4 healthy pups, no stillborns and no runt and all survived and are in perfect health. Apparently, I prepared myself correctly? I would like to think I did something right. As far as my motivation, I can assure you that it is not ego, nor is it for profit. If you have ever looked at pups that you bred and they are healthy, they go to good homes, you have the honor of knowing that it was because of YOUR efforts, you promoted good breed standards and you kept 4 people away from a puppy mill, that is the biggest reward and motivation of all.

I think I have answered all of your questions. Please let me know if I have missed anything or if there is anything I can elaborate on. Again, I don't claim to be an expert, but if you look back over my past replys, I don't think you will find a case where I have given "bad advice" nor do I make a habit out of posting if I don't think I am knowledgeable about what I say. If I have, please let me know and I will be more than happy to retract the statement.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Thank you for the background info....I guess I had forgotten about our previous discussion because I honestly did not know how many litters you had had. Sorry....I should have searched the threads ........ I really don't even remember you from before.

Congratulations on your experience with your Trixie! I love to hear about breeding experineces with no complications. There is so much less stress.

So your motivation for breeding is not money but rather the satisfaction that you raised four healthy puppies and you kept four people from buying from a puppymill? That is quite admirable and I mean that sincerely. When I look at my girls and think about anything happening to them, it makes me ill on the spot. I cannot even bring myself to have them spayed because I am so afraid of the anesthesia. I was a total basket case when Ava had her eye ulcer.

When you were first doing your research and deciding to breed your pet was this always your motivation? I mean did you and your father actually sit down and say what your reason for breeding would be? I have struggled with this question for some time now and I really appreciate your sharing your experience and how you made the decision to breed.

[BamaFan121s]

SoCal-thank you for your kind comments. And FYI, I was formerly an Opthalmic Tech and saw many the corneal ulcer...yes, they are HORRIBLE and you have my deepest sympathies for that one! Nasty scarring they tend to leave behind as well.

When we got our dogs, our motivation was to get one with a bloodline that we would breed if we decided to, but did not get them at first with the sole intention of breeding them. When working with the Shih-Tzu breeder, she sold her pups for 300-400 and honestly would do well to break even. But her dogs were her life. She is retired, has grown kids and all her motivations are for her doggies. She seemed so fulfilled...it was a great feeling. As I said, my father got Cody from a breeder we worked with, we didn't have much of a problem getting him. On the contrary, when we looked for Trixie, we ran accross puppy mill after puppy mill...horrendous conditions. Ultimately, thinking back on that, when it came down to our decision: OK, are we going to breed or not? it sat with me that we could raise 'good' dogs rather than what we've seen. I honestly didn't know if I had an intention on breeding her a second time until I got to see the reactions of those who took her pups home. It has been the most gratifying experience, next to having my own child. One of the new owners told me how adamate he'd been about finding a breeder that wasn't a puppy mill and he was so grateful our vet had mentioned us to him. He said, "you are so organized with everything and you have really put my mind at ease with my decision to get this puppy." After all the hard work, how great a thing is THAT to hear!?!"

[YorkieRini]

Bama

[Carters Mom]

BamaFan:

What great posts from you. I feel you went way out of your way to discuss things that necessarily didn't need to be said but you were upfront and totally sincere, in my opinion.

Thanks for being a great breeder and a great forum member.

[PlatinumYorkies]

Originally Posted by Carters Mom

BamaFan:

What great posts from you. I feel you went way out of your way to discuss things that necessarily didn't need to be said but you were upfront and totally sincere, in my opinion.

Thanks for being a great breeder and a great forum member.

I agree with Carters Mom, you went above and beyond in your post IMO. And it was excellent...