We need to turn up the RESPECT volume in here

[Wylie's Mom]

We've been getting an increasing amount of complaints about how people are being treated in this section. We truly need ALL members who post in here to take a good honest look at their posts in this section and then decide if they could do better in helping both people and dogs.

Please review these snippets of YT policies and rules (entire list here):

1. Please be civil and do not personally attack members, their opinions, their knowledge, or how they care for their dog. It is NOT acceptable to call any member a troll, a pot stirrer, or a bully. If you disagree with a member's post - you must reply respectfully; if unable to do so, you should not post. YT will not allow rude, snide, or disrespectful remarks towards fellow members. If you have only criticism and nothing constructive to add to a thread - then DO NOT POST. If you have ongoing conflict with a member, you may place them on your ignore list. It is not allowed to publicly declare whether a member is placed on 'ignore' - any posts stating such will be deleted and could result in consequences.

2. New members will be treated with respect, patience, and extra understanding. All yorkie owners at YT were “new” at some point; new members come to YT hoping to learn about their dogs and they want some support, patience and kindness while learning and sharing. If you are a member who cannot offer patience and understanding to new members or during sensitive topics, then you should not post on applicable threads. If you break this rule - your posts will be deleted, your access to the applicable section(s) may be removed for up to 30 days or indefinitely, and/or you will be suspended.

3. If your personal interactions are deemed problematic, attacking, badgering, snarky/snide or anything similar, (via forums, PMs, chat etc.), your account may be suspended for 1-4 weeks. If you try to circumvent this by creating another account, both accounts will be PERMANENTLY BANNED. For more serious offenses, you may be banned from YT immediately, rather than suspended. If a member causes ongoing problematic issues in a certain section of YT, we may disable the member's access to that section for 1-4 weeks; if it continues, access will be removed indefinitely.

---------------------

Hopefully, that makes it pretty clear. Can we do better? Thoughts? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[AngelFae]

Thank you!!!!!

[gemy]

Ann most of the time when you post these missives I understand a little of where you are coming from.

But not now, and not today.

The one thread I have been involved in over the past two days, I thought most posted quite laid backly ... if that is even a word.

Of course right now, I have minimal time on YT as I; as a responsible breeder and active member of my club, am putting together a Judging Seminar for Canadian Judges about the BRT..

I have also evaluated two litters of pups .. one Yorkies and one BRT's.

I am a responsible and knowledgeable breeder; it is very hard for me to read all the stories here; which is why I post sparingly. And of course I am a large breed breeder and not a toy breeder; and it makes a big difference. For example High Blood Pressure during labor not so common in Toys as far as I know.

But I will continue to advise and countenance a spay of a female who was inadvertently bred; especially when we are talking about a novice breeder.

In my opinion, and yes it is JUST my opinion; the cards are stacked against this female dog, and the future of any puppies very un-certain.

Will this "breeder" guarantee the health of the puppies for any significant amount of time? Will this breeder test the puppies for temperament, do the proper neuro stimulation for growth of their brain and ultimate socialization? Will this breeder put their money on the line, when puppies that they caused to be birthed show up with devastating health issues? Will this breeder be on board to support their puppy owners over the life time of their pups?

I would say that most do not even think of this. Oh Sally got pregnant! Can't /won't emergency spay. Let me close my eyes, cross my fingers, and hope all goes well. Then let's fob off these pups to what-ever home I can find for them. And wash my hands of any responsibility!

[Marhcarter]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

We've been getting an increasing amount of complaints about how people are being treated in this section. We truly need ALL members who post in here to take a good honest look at their posts in this section and then decide if they could do better in helping both people and dogs.

Please review these snippets of YT policies and rules (entire list here):

1. Please be civil and do not personally attack members, their opinions, their knowledge, or how they care for their dog. It is NOT acceptable to call any member a troll, a pot stirrer, or a bully. If you disagree with a member's post - you must reply respectfully; if unable to do so, you should not post. YT will not allow rude, snide, or disrespectful remarks towards fellow members. If you have only criticism and nothing constructive to add to a thread - then DO NOT POST. If you have ongoing conflict with a member, you may place them on your ignore list. It is not allowed to publicly declare whether a member is placed on 'ignore' - any posts stating such will be deleted and could result in consequences.

2. New members will be treated with respect, patience, and extra understanding. All yorkie owners at YT were “new” at some point; new members come to YT hoping to learn about their dogs and they want some support, patience and kindness while learning and sharing. If you are a member who cannot offer patience and understanding to new members or during sensitive topics, then you should not post on applicable threads. If you break this rule - your posts will be deleted, your access to the applicable section(s) may be removed for up to 30 days or indefinitely, and/or you will be suspended.

3. If your personal interactions are deemed problematic, attacking, badgering, snarky/snide or anything similar, (via forums, PMs, chat etc.), your account may be suspended for 1-4 weeks. If you try to circumvent this by creating another account, both accounts will be PERMANENTLY BANNED. For more serious offenses, you may be banned from YT immediately, rather than suspended. If a member causes ongoing problematic issues in a certain section of YT, we may disable the member's access to that section for 1-4 weeks; if it continues, access will be removed indefinitely.

---------------------

Hopefully, that makes it pretty clear. Can we do better? Thoughts? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Well said. I found this forum because I had questions about some behavior of my dog and while i just read a lot that night and didn't post my problem asking for advice (I took him emergently to the vet), I have discovered this site is chock full of knowledgeable people. I have a low threshold for stupidity and ignorance, but to help people like this, we have to be constructive, not critical. We can phrase answers to stupid questions in ways that are not ugly even while we bite our tongues. Just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it. I know my brain-mouth filter is broken at times, but as this is a written forum, it gives you a chance to review before posting. Stop, read what you wrote and see if it comes across the way it needs to. I would hate to run off people that we could really help. The dogs will be the ones to suffer and none of us want that.

[Verbena]

Originally Posted by Marhcarter

Well said. I found this forum because I had questions about some behavior of my dog and while i just read a lot that night and didn't post my problem asking for advice (I took him emergently to the vet), I have discovered this site is chock full of knowledgeable people. I have a low threshold for stupidity and ignorance, but to help people like this, we have to be constructive, not critical. We can phrase answers to stupid questions in ways that are not ugly even while we bite our tongues. Just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it. I know my brain-mouth filter is broken at times, but as this is a written forum, it gives you a chance to review before posting. Stop, read what you wrote and see if it comes across the way it needs to. I would hate to run off people that we could really help. The dogs will be the ones to suffer and none of us want that.

I am the same way. I really have no filter. I say what I mean. All my friends know it. Sometimes when there is a problem and I am like wtf, I use my note feature and write what I am going to say. Then go back to it in a few and make the corrections that makes it sound nice but gets the point across.

I said it once I will say it again. My grandma always said. . . .

You get more flies with honey then you do with vinegar.

And the other was . . .

If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

[Deb1]

As a newcomer to YT, I avoid the drama on some of these threads! I came to YT to learn from all the wonderful people who have a love for these awesome little dogs. I have learned so much, asked dumb questions and shared some of what I know and my stories of life with my furry family. I have been sad when others have responded with comments that make my question or comment look like I know nothing. Lately, I have been limiting my comments for fear of others rudeness. I do a lot of reading and smiling and laughing and sometime crying at the life of these precious little beings we call yorkies. I will continue to enjoy YT but hope for less drama and disrespect! Thank you for posting this WyliesMom! We all love our precious yorkie and want the best for them, so lets all make this the most awesome site for all concerned!

[Yorkiemom1]

I have NO tolerance for abuse of our most vulnerable members of society....ie. the elderly, children, the disabled, and animals. It is not the "stupid questions" that offend me, as I do not think there are ANY stupid questions. It is uninformed people that are profoundly ignorant with regards to breeding, whelping and ALL the dangers therein for the bitch as well as the puppies, that rather than seek education and advise, instead go tripping gaily along, totally clueless and "just gonna get it hands on, learn as I go, damn the torpedoes-full steam ahead, let the chips fall where they may, never done this before but by golly I can do it now" attitude....... ESPECIALLY when the cards are clearly stacked against the bitch from the outset! That to me is a person that IN REALITY, could care less about her bitch or the babies she is carrying. It seems to be getting to a point where you can not post ANYTHING that disagrees with that persons actions or decisions because they "will get their feelings hurt"...not from snarky or snide or cruel comments, but from anything that does not answer ONLY what they ask...no intelligent, politically correct advice, silk lined and delivered with "just the facts, ma'am" accuracy. Responsible, ethical breeders will look at the WHOLE picture in front of her, and if it is not as clear or precise or good as it possibly can be, for the bitch and the litter, decisions are made....TOUGH decisions...NOT for the breeder's wants and desires, but for the breeding female. To do less, to ME, is abuse of the bitch, and that very thing goes on all over the country at every puppy mill around. My integrity as a human being, as a responsible breeder, and as an ethical breeder, does not allow me to accept such behavior. I post, try to show the person in question the reasons WHY the decision they have made, is not the best course of action,....NOT from "opinions" but from PROVEN, EVIDENCED BASED OUTCOMES......... and if they are unwilling or unable to accept CONSTRUCTIVE SUGGESTIONS or learn from outcomes based on years of experience, I just stop addressing the issue with them. They obviously have no intention of changing their course of action, just as I have no intention of accepting the choice they have made for their bitch as one made for HER best interest....decisions made out of inexperience and ignorance. To think that a bitch is possibly going to require an emergent c-section in the middle of the night, and the "breeder" has no contigency plan to get to an emergency vet at that hour, or they dont have the finances to meet the demand of the emergency clinic, or they end up with a litter that needs to be hand fed and they dont have the supplies or the equipment or the knowledge base to keep them alive....I am sorry but when someone closes their eyes, crosses their fingers, and just hopes it all works out just fine....I simply can not condone that. Please feel free to delete this post if you think it is going to hurt some ones feelings. I will add I think this is why experienced breeders are reluctant to post....you can not try to educate people without being considered disrespectful, inpatient, and devoid of understanding. There ARE people that come here and they read and learn and research and ask questions and these people are an asset to our pets and what they need.....and then there are those that dont really want advise or "educating"...they just want their question answered, and if you drift from that narrow path, they become hostile, beligerant, hateful and insulting....which is apparently acceptable if it is coming from them to us trying to help them. Perhaps time to step back and just watch, because as hard as I sincerely do try not to, I am bad about "I told you so...." and I feel I am watching several train wrecks hurtling to their end......

[Verbena]

I have noticed some of the people that come here for "emergency" help never stay after. They come ask for help and then nothing. You do not know if they listened or followed advice. We do not even know if the pup lived. Sometimes I wish I can grab ahold of some and just shake them. I wish some would just use their brain.

[Marhcarter]

Ok, at the risk of catching h-ll from the breeders, I just want to make one point. I think that many of the people who ask questions about their pregnant dogs are just that; people who have dogs that have become pregnant through either carelessness of the owner or ignorance. I don't think these people consider themselves to be breeders and many of them have no intention of getting into this situation again. Yes, they may project their human morals upon the bitch or may just be ignorant of the possible complications until it is too late, but either way, they need information to get the mother and pups through this as safely as possible, so they can then take preventative measures to avoid this situation in the future.People have had dogs that have had pups for hundreds of years without the knowledge that these people have available to them, and I don't feel like any of these accidental breeders have come to this site to brag about the status of their dogs. I feel like they have come to this site to ask for help. We need to provide the knowledge needed, whether it is personal knowledge or just letting them know when to seek professional help. I think giving them estimates of the potential financial burden is very appropriate for planning purposes. I don't think berating them for being stupid and letting their dog get knocked up is appropriate at all. We are all here for the animals, but IMO, the animals are getting overlooked in all the drama.
Ok, I'm done.

[AngelFae]

Originally Posted by Verbena

I have noticed some of the people that come here for "emergency" help never stay after. They come ask for help and then nothing. You do not know if they listened or followed advice. We do not even know if the pup lived. Sometimes I wish I can grab ahold of some and just shake them. I wish some would just use their brain.

I think the whole point of this IS that people are coming here for emergency questions and they DO get treated like crap and DON'T feel as though they are getting help, only judged rudely, and they don't feel welcome to stay. They come here and SEE that there are wonderful, knowledgable Yorkie owners and breeders who CAN help them but then they get torn apart for asking what they came to ask. If the situation is past the point of change all we can do is help the outcome and educate so that the situation doesn't happen again.
This thread was started as a general reminder, NOT about one specific other thread (which is what it has become.) As to that thread, however, the decision has been made by the owner to continue the pregnancy and she is still here and she is still trying to gain knowledge and help to try for the best possible outcome. What help does it do to continue to berate her and her decision? She'll leave and not get the help and education she needs. How does that help the bitch and the pups? It doesn't. She understands that the majority here does not agree with her decision but she is still here. I feel that it is time to move forward and work on helping her through this current situation and to prevent reoccurance.
I'm still new here, you have no reason to listen to anything I have to say, but as an outsider looking in, this is what I've been seeing.

[Yorkiemom1]

The wonderful thing about this forum is that everyone can respond to posts. That "respect and understanding and civil" thing goes BOTH ways. I think admin. or moderators, etc do a fantastic job of patroling these posts and I have to say, I have not seen any new members actually "treated like crap", called "stupid", or even "torn apart".....Ann is on stuff like that like a duck on a june bug! Simply because anyone expresses THEIR solution to a problem, just because it may not be what the poster wanted to hear, as long as it is done respectfully, does not invalidate that response or religate it to the "cruel, hateful, disrespectful, uncaring" bin. Those that want to continue to respond to a thread, with their own solutions to the problem, can do so....and those that feel they are not able to continue to be of any value or assistance, or are not appreciated by the poster, can step back. Those that do break the "rules of engagement", will be appropriately dealt with by ever patroling Ann, et al...!! Thank you, Ann!

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Marhcarter

Well said. I found this forum because I had questions about some behavior of my dog and while i just read a lot that night and didn't post my problem asking for advice (I took him emergently to the vet), I have discovered this site is chock full of knowledgeable people. I have a low threshold for stupidity and ignorance, but to help people like this, we have to be constructive, not critical. We can phrase answers to stupid questions in ways that are not ugly even while we bite our tongues. Just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it. I know my brain-mouth filter is broken at times, but as this is a written forum, it gives you a chance to review before posting. Stop, read what you wrote and see if it comes across the way it needs to. I would hate to run off people that we could really help. The dogs will be the ones to suffer and none of us want that.

Love it. Perfect.

Originally Posted by Deb1

As a newcomer to YT, I avoid the drama on some of these threads! I came to YT to learn from all the wonderful people who have a love for these awesome little dogs. I have learned so much, asked dumb questions and shared some of what I know and my stories of life with my furry family. I have been sad when others have responded with comments that make my question or comment look like I know nothing. Lately, I have been limiting my comments for fear of others rudeness. I do a lot of reading and smiling and laughing and sometime crying at the life of these precious little beings we call yorkies. I will continue to enjoy YT but hope for less drama and disrespect! Thank you for posting this WyliesMom! We all love our precious yorkie and want the best for them, so lets all make this the most awesome site for all concerned!

Oh gosh...I'm truly sorry you've received comments that kind of denigrated what you tried to share...that's really not what YT should be about. I know passion sometimes takes us over, and we say things that don't come off right...but still, knowing that doesn't make it much easier when you're on the receiving end of it. I hope you continue to post bc I think you'd have a lot to add. And, if you ever need support - or even just want to vent (seriously!), I'm here for you if you ever want to send me a PM .

Originally Posted by AngelFae

I think the whole point of this IS that people are coming here for emergency questions and they DO get treated like crap and DON'T feel as though they are getting help, only judged rudely, and they don't feel welcome to stay. They come here and SEE that there are wonderful, knowledgable Yorkie owners and breeders who CAN help them but then they get torn apart for asking what they came to ask. If the situation is past the point of change all we can do is help the outcome and educate so that the situation doesn't happen again.

This thread was started as a general reminder, NOT about one specific other thread (which is what it has become.) As to that thread, however, the decision has been made by the owner to continue the pregnancy and she is still here and she is still trying to gain knowledge and help to try for the best possible outcome. What help does it do to continue to berate her and her decision? She'll leave and not get the help and education she needs. How does that help the bitch and the pups? It doesn't. She understands that the majority here does not agree with her decision but she is still here. I feel that it is time to move forward and work on helping her through this current situation and to prevent reoccurance.
I'm still new here, you have no reason to listen to anything I have to say, but as an outsider looking in, this is what I've been seeing.

Great post, so true.

And yup, this thread is most definitely not about a particular thread....it's about months and months of a buildup, and complaints that continue. We have complaints on both sides....from people who want the OPs treated better...and we have complaints that our experienced Breeders (who we ALL are grateful to) aren't treated well. I hear you, from all sides - and it's all valid.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by gemy

Ann most of the time when you post these missives I understand a little of where you are coming from.

But not now, and not today.

The one thread I have been involved in over the past two days, I thought most posted quite laid backly ... if that is even a word.

Of course right now, I have minimal time on YT as I; as a responsible breeder and active member of my club, am putting together a Judging Seminar for Canadian Judges about the BRT..

I have also evaluated two litters of pups .. one Yorkies and one BRT's.

I am a responsible and knowledgeable breeder; it is very hard for me to read all the stories here; which is why I post sparingly. And of course I am a large breed breeder and not a toy breeder; and it makes a big difference. For example High Blood Pressure during labor not so common in Toys as far as I know.

But I will continue to advise and countenance a spay of a female who was inadvertently bred; especially when we are talking about a novice breeder.

In my opinion, and yes it is JUST my opinion; the cards are stacked against this female dog, and the future of any puppies very un-certain.

Will this "breeder" guarantee the health of the puppies for any significant amount of time? Will this breeder test the puppies for temperament, do the proper neuro stimulation for growth of their brain and ultimate socialization? Will this breeder put their money on the line, when puppies that they caused to be birthed show up with devastating health issues? Will this breeder be on board to support their puppy owners over the life time of their pups?

I would say that most do not even think of this. Oh Sally got pregnant! Can't /won't emergency spay. Let me close my eyes, cross my fingers, and hope all goes well. Then let's fob off these pups to what-ever home I can find for them. And wash my hands of any responsibility!

Darlin' , if I could always post the right thing, at the right time, on the right day, to the right person...I'd be thrilled . But, I'm just one lowly human being who does what she can, when she can. I do want to *assure* you, in no uncertain terms, that this is not about any particular thread. The idea/need for this thread started to brew about 3 weeks ago, when some escalated complaints came in. This is ongoing stuff, nuttin' new.

I only can imagine what it's like for you and other breeders to watch what goes on in here. Believe me, I get it in as far as my imagination can take me (not being a breeder). Us older members know exactly who we've lost in terms of excellent breeders here who used to give advice. One by one, they gave up bc it's so utterly draining for them to help in here. I don't think it's ever said enough how grateful all of us are that some breeders are STILL willing to help in here. So let it be clear: we ARE GRATEFUL .

Not for a moment am I asking that you stop advocating for spays, or that you alter your opinion as to what is best in any situation. Not in the least. Your opinion is valid and needed desperately, as an experienced breeder. What I'm saying is that there are too many threads here where people are being pummeled by some members, rather than helped. Here's a better way of saying it: what I'm seeing is that you might go in and offer this very helpful and calm support - even if/when you're saying 'spay' or whatnot; then, some other folks might come in and all they offer is to pummel the OP - which then totally invalidates the support you gave bc the OP feels attacked, humiliated, embarrassed, defensive, and angry...not exactly a frame of mind conducive to learning or receiving advice. And *boom*, we've lost our opportunity to help the person and the dog, and to teach long term.

That's what this is about . People who truly want to help a situation and who are able to do so calmly and respectfully, should post in such threads. Those are pi$$ed off and offended by the OP's situation --> you should not be on these threads bc you WILL HURT the outcome.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

The wonderful thing about this forum is that everyone can respond to posts. That "respect and understanding and civil" thing goes BOTH ways. I think admin. or moderators, etc do a fantastic job of patroling these posts and I have to say, I have not seen any new members actually "treated like crap", called "stupid", or even "torn apart".....Ann is on stuff like that like a duck on a june bug! Simply because anyone expresses THEIR solution to a problem, just because it may not be what the poster wanted to hear, as long as it is done respectfully, does not invalidate that response or religate it to the "cruel, hateful, disrespectful, uncaring" bin. Those that want to continue to respond to a thread, with their own solutions to the problem, can do so....and those that feel they are not able to continue to be of any value or assistance, or are not appreciated by the poster, can step back. Those that do break the "rules of engagement", will be appropriately dealt with by ever patroling Ann, et al...!! Thank you, Ann!

What you, Gail, Carmen and others can do to influence the final outcome of a bad situation can't be overestimated. You have huge opportunities to help and educate...and honestly? That's gotta come with some pressure, and a whole lot of frustration where you want to reach thru the computer screen and throttle a few necks . I think the breadth of your experience is a real benefit and gives you a lot of credibility that others would listen to.

If you could help maintain and promote calm voices and respectful delivery on these threads....it would go a long LONG way .

Sometimes when I'm really ticked off about something, I sometimes conjure up Lisaly - probably THE sweetest, most thoughtful, kindhearted, gigantic-hearted, humanist, smartest people here --- so when someone is triggering me and I'm then replying - I picture that I'm actually replying to Lisaly, and my entire headspace changes, my tone changes. Lisaly is an excellent weapon for positivity . Little does she know!

Thank you for the thanks .

[MauiGirl]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Darlin' , if I could always post the right thing, at the right time, on the right day, to the right person...I'd be thrilled . But, I'm just one lowly human being who does what she can, when she can. I do want to *assure* you, in no uncertain terms, that this is not about any particular thread. The idea/need for this thread started to brew about 3 weeks ago, when some escalated complaints came in. This is ongoing stuff, nuttin' new.

I only can imagine what it's like for you and other breeders to watch what goes on in here. Believe me, I get it in as far as my imagination can take me (not being a breeder). Us older members know exactly who we've lost in terms of excellent breeders here who used to give advice. One by one, they gave up bc it's so utterly draining for them to help in here. I don't think it's ever said enough how grateful all of us are that some breeders are STILL willing to help in here. So let it be clear: we ARE GRATEFUL .

Not for a moment am I asking that you stop advocating for spays, or that you alter your opinion as to what is best in any situation. Not in the least. Your opinion is valid and needed desperately, as an experienced breeder. What I'm saying is that there are too many threads here where people are being pummeled by some members, rather than helped. Here's a better way of saying it: what I'm seeing is that you might go in and offer this very helpful and calm support - even if/when you're saying 'spay' or whatnot; then, some other folks might come in and all they offer is to pummel the OP - which then totally invalidates the support you gave bc the OP feels attacked, humiliated, embarrassed, defensive, and angry...not exactly a frame of mind conducive to learning or receiving advice. And *boom*, we've lost our opportunity to help the person and the dog, and to teach long term.

That's what this is about . People who truly want to help a situation and who are able to do so calmly and respectfully, should post in such threads. Those are pi$ off and offended by the OP's situation --> you should not be on these threads bc you WILL HURT the outcome.

WOW~ Ann, this is absolutely the best post I have seen on YorkieTalk in a very long time.

You do have an amazing way of saying what needs to be said, and I can appreciate the thought (and frustration) that went into your post. I wish everybody would see this. I too am saddened by some awesome members who have walked away from YT over the 5 years I've been here due to drama.

Thanks for hanging in there yourself as a Moderator. Sometimes I wonder how you can do it, but you are very much appreciated.

Hugs to you and your pack!