ok breeders get ready...because Im not!!!

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by lillymae

Hmmm, Did she breed this Bitch - No
Is it her dog - No
Is the breeder irresponsible - YES
Would the Bitch & pups be better off with Kendra - I believe so
Is Kendra doing her best to educate this BYB - I believe so
Is Kendra doing her best to convince this BYB to STOP breeding & spay/neuter her dogs - Absolutely
Is there a way to take back this breeding - No
Is Kendra trying her very best to ensure the Health & safety of Mom & pups,
I believe so, witch is more then the BYB is doing.
Is this Bitch a living breathing creature who deserves better then the hand she's been dealt - YES
What's done is done & can't be changed, but Kendra is doing her best to change any future breedings from this BYB. I think she deserves some credit for trying, witch is more then most people would do. She is going the distance for the dogs.

I so agreed the OP deserves much credit for caring...the litter is on the way...she wants the best results...but what I am concerned about IS..will this stop the breeder from breeding this bitch again...? Is this the only bitch she has..is she a breeder who wants to continue to breed?
I do not know these answers and it colors my thinking on this....

I will help anyone in trouble, but I will not enable them to continue to line their pockets with money made off of dogs...
Who is paying for all the vet expenses...it is going to be a big bill if these pups are kept until 12 weeks..is the breeder paying...
You may find this a silly cost..but food for a litter is very expensive...there are many costs that incur..and I have taken bitches, whelped and paid all the expenses myself..placed and spayed the dam..but they never went back to the breeder...I have counted back at least 5 litters I did over the years...
I made the pet owner sign a contract givng me full rights to the dog and I assumed all expenses...and since I did not want to sell these pups and represent them as mine...I asked for $100 donation to off set expenses...

I have been used and I learned how to turn it around and help in a way the bitch could never be used again....I never feel as badly for the pups, as most BYbers sell them asap-...but the bitch can be bred to death...I want her!

[ladyjane]

In my way of thinking this is not about Kendra, but about those poor pups and honestly what she is doing is not saving them. Someone suggested Animal Control...if the place is that bad perhaps that would help. Does not seem to me that anything is being done here but making the breeder's life easier, while Kendra is thinking she is saving pups. If they are all going back to the breeder do tell how that has saved them? She is pacifying Kendra telling her she will do s/n contract. Is she promising that she will place them in the best possible homes so that they won't end up future shelter pups? As I said in another post, mills and bybs love to get their hooks into a kind person like Kendra. I have seen that over and over and over again.

[YorkieRose]

Prehaps, 35 yrs of dealing with all types of breeders has jaded me...if there is money involved, the breeder will continue...

I will admit to doing some not so legal things to retrieve Yorkies...like climbing over a few fences and taking dogs who lived in chicken houses, barns and cranked out litter after litter...sick and suffering Yorkies...

My friend would sit in the car with the motor running and prayed I did not get caught...used a trash can to climb over a stockard fence, only to find out I had no way to get back over the fence...literally had to crawl under the peoples window and out the gate...
Jay Ammons once broke into a persons home to retrieve one of her Yorkies that was being abused (she climbed in a bathroom window)..we agreed, some things are worth a jail sentence.

I wish Kendra all the best and hope she has great success educating the breeder...

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I made the pet owner sign a contract givng me full rights to the dog and I assumed all expenses...and since I did not want to sell these pups and represent them as mine...I asked for $100 donation to off set expenses...

I have been used and I learned how to turn it around and help in a way the bitch could never be used again....I never feel as badly for the pups, as most BYbers sell them asap-...but the bitch can be bred to death...I want her!

I love that idea.

Pat, if you're still in the business of 'liberating' dogs, please come steal this boy I have. He pees on EVERYTHING!! I'll leave the gate unlocked...shoot, I'll even have his bags packed and leave a snack out for you!! PM me for directions. JK

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by lillymae

Seriously , If each of us her on YT could do this ONE time can you imagine how many pups would be saved & what a Diff WE could all make. Not just for the breeding dogs but the potential owners of genetically defective pups & the sickly pups that would have been born to these poor parent dogs .
I have found that a little Kindness goes Much further then slinging Poo.

What would happen is that there would be an even bigger increase in the # of BYB's breeding because they know they could pawn the dogs off on someone else to do all the work and foot the expense and then take the dogs back in time to sell them.

If you've read the history of this BYB, you would know she already dumped the mom of Bevo on Kendra, bought another tiny girl to breed and then bred this dog, too (who knows how many others there are back in her cages waiting to be bred). While I applaud Kendra for wanting to help educate this woman, she really is someone who needs to have her breeding program shut down instead of being assisted.

This whole situation makes me sad.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I love that idea.

Pat, if you're still in the business of 'liberating' dogs, please come steal this boy I have. He pees on EVERYTHING!! I'll leave the gate unlocked...shoot, I'll even have his bags packed and leave a snack out for you!! PM me for directions. JK

Very, tempting, but I have lived with many "leg cockers"...I will pass...LOL

[lillymae]

Well , if I was able to convince a BYB to see the light then I can't be the only one. Or should we all just turn our backs & not try ???

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by lillymae

Well , if I was able to convince a BYB to see the light then I can't be the only one. Or should we all just turn our backs & not try ???

I'm not familiar with your experience. Have you posted about it before? If so, could you provide the link? I'd like to read it.

I don't think any two situations are the same and am not sure how much Kendra's mirrors yours. From what's been posted, what I see happening is that Kendra does all the work and turns the pups back over to the breeder. I haven't seen anywhere who would be responsible for the expenses, especially if there were complications. Now how is that helping to stop a BYB?

It really just seems like this breeder is using her.

Yorkie Rose had what I think is a great solution and I will tell you that she understands the whole dog world better than probably anyone else here. Obviously, some kind of contract is needed if Kendra hopes to have any control and also to protect herself if something went wrong.

I don't see anyone turning their back, but that's a matter of perspective, I suppose.

[FlDebra]

I think the OP would not only be taken advantage of but would become a partner backyard breeder herself. She would be extremely complicit with the whole mess! I am still not sure if the whelping would be better with Kendra than the owner/breeder. Now that it has suddenly come out that she has experience with 3 pug litters years ago, that is more than I realized when my opinions were first formed. Still, yorkies ARE different. It seems just a little over-the-top that she believes she can do a better job during delivery for this pregnant bitch and her pups than a BYB that has been at it for some time. She obviously has better ethics and heart, but that is not enough to whelp a litter of yorkies. Experience cannot be discounted in this circumstance.

So, what is being gained? She MAY be able to keep the puppies 12 weeks instead of 6. But there is no guarantee of that. The owner may just ask for them back at 6 weeks and sell them. If she is needing money, and a "cash crop" (in her eyes) is available, she may see the green and undo all that Kendra has tried to accomplish!

I doubt that she will spay the dam -- this is obviously an ongoing business concern for her and I am not sure you can instill a caring heart. She has looked at these dogs as money makers too long to suddenly decide to spay and neuter them all and keep them as pets. Miracles do happen, never know -- maybe she will get out of the business but I sure would not place a bet on it.

There are also the MANY legal questions that have been raised. Is there any contract in writing between the two? It seems to me Kendra is offering a "service" implying that she is capable of providing care and assistance in the delivery of these puppies. That would put her in a position of liability if something goes wrong. I would also be concerned about vet fees. If a C-section is required, that can get quite expensive.

While it is admirable that she wants to help, sometimes we tend to think our good intentions automatically puts us above all others and that just is not so. The mother and pups might just be better off being in the care of an experienced breeder (even though her ethics are in question). It was mentioned that she does not think the breeder would get vet care if something went wrong. What is she basing this on? Even the worst BYB understands that if they all die, there is no money made. I can't imagine them getting no care if it is needed. So many things can happen that require split second action on the part of the person attending a whelping. There is no time for getting on line (computer OR PHONE), no time to call the vet -- the person needs to KNOW what action they are going to take. Then there are the crucial days AFTER the births. Does she know what to watch for? What is a normal discharge and what signals a problem? What smell might signal a problem? What temp should momma read after? What is a warning temp? How much bleeding is natural and when does it become crucial to get care? Three weeks is NOT long enough to prepare! I studied for 2 years and it was still not enough in some ways, as no amount of study replaces experience.

I just think this is a situation rife with problems and there is no winning combination. The only benefit that is HOPED to be derived is to have the pups stay with their momma a little longer than they would have with the breeder. If you can talk her into GIVING you her pregnant girl for the delivery WHY ON EARTH can you not talk her into just keeping the puppies a little longer? My guess is she is chuckling in the background, thinking now that she has an assistant, she has more time to get even more breeding done!

This would be different if the pregnant girl was in danger, or if you were going to get to keep the girl afterwards to spay and love. But to just provide all this work time and not make any real changes -- I cannot see it is worth the very real dangers of culpability if something does go wrong. If you lose this momma dog, what will she do? People who don't care any more about animals than to treat them like money makers, are also the type to turn litigious when they get the opportunity. Are you prepared to pay her for the females and maybe even the litter if things do go terribly wrong?

As Ladyjane tried to get you to understand -- your good intentions could be put to so much better use if you were to visit a rescue or shelter and TRULY save a pup! Not just keep them with their mom a little longer but truly SAVE THEIR LIFE! You seem to have the heart for rescue and there are plenty that could use your help! Obviously, you cannot save all the pups in the world, or even in Texas, but if you really want to get involved, I would do it in a way that will make a continued difference. Even talking her into giving you the pregnant female after the pups are rehomed would be saving her and making a true difference. As another pointed out, sure she may just breed another, but you would have saved this girl from further misery AND ensured she got spayed to prevent more blue babies.

I know it is difficult to see something wrong and not step in to fix it. But we are not Gods, we can only do so much. So, I would suggest it would be SO MUCH BETTER to pick one pup in need and rescue it. Then if you can later, do it again. Saving pups one at a time -- really changing their lives for the better and sometimes stepping in to SAVE their LIFE completely (in the case of kill shelters) would be so much better than taking on all of this responsibility with so little impact made. I would cut ALL ties with this breeder. Leave her with written information to back up all that you have taught her and get as far away from her as possible. If there were really any unsafe or unhealthy conditions, report her to the authorities and then leave it at that. But that is JMHO. Prayers said for momma and pups -- no matter where they wind up for how long.

[manolos mom]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

What would happen is that there would be an even bigger increase in the # of BYB's breeding because they know they could pawn the dogs off on someone else to do all the work and foot the expense and then take the dogs back in time to sell them.

If you've read the history of this BYB, you would know she already dumped the mom of Bevo on Kendra, bought another tiny girl to breed and then bred this dog, too (who knows how many others there are back in her cages waiting to be bred). While I applaud Kendra for wanting to help educate this woman, she really is someone who needs to have her breeding program shut down instead of being assisted.

This whole situation makes me sad.

I just want to know if Bevo,Mac and Macs mom have been neutered and spayed? Kendra, this is what is in front of you right now. If you have not taken care of this, how in the world are you going to take responsible care of the pregnant bitch. I say leave her with the Breeder. You seem to have too much going on in your life, including raising a 16 year old daughter. You do seem to have a big heart but that heart needs to toughen up. Nancy is right about returning the girl back to the breeder after she has had a taste of freedom. That would not be right.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by lillymae

Well , if I was able to convince a BYB to see the light then I can't be the only one. Or should we all just turn our backs & not try ???

Absolutely, we have to try...it is a learning experince and learning the fine line between enabling and educating is tough some times...

[Belladonna1]

Originally Posted by lillymae

Well , if I was able to convince a BYB to see the light then I can't be the only one. Or should we all just turn our backs & not try ???

It seems she trying to do the right thing but its not working, shes posted how she has cried out to this byb the importants of keeping the pups with momma untill 12 weeks, yet the byb is letting pups go at 6 weeks anyways, so her words and caring heart is getting no where with this breeder, Instead shes doing all the hard work being used and because she has a good heart she cant even see shes being used and taking advantage of, Once those pups are whelped and cared for they go right back to the byb and sold, Putting a fat roll of cash in the breeders pocket.
How does anything here show the breeder what shes doing is wrong? Why would she stop. And from reading other post this is not the only female this breeder has in fact the OP studed her male to this breeder and produced a blue pup, and now another female is pregnant and she may get a pup from this litter, So in 7 weeks time this is two females pregnant we know of, I dont see where anything in this breeders habbits have changed. She maynot relize but at this point shes inableing this breeder to do the wrong thing, With so many bitches pegnant at the same time if you wanted to make a change why not call animal control. But taking the bitch in from the breeder who knows how to deliver these pups because she thinks there better off, yet her post clearly says; Iam not ready! I mean come on with all the pups this byb breeder is producing shes knows how to whelp these pups, I mean she has other un spayed females and we know she looks for studs; so how is this going to stop, the pups are going back to the byb, shes going to sell them and the cycle starts over again, Theres no dought in my heart that the OP is not trying to do what she thinks is best, but again she may be letting her heart take over and not useing her thinking skills. Once these pups are sold and the byb money is gone shell be breeding again, Once thses kind of people start this bussiness they usaly never back out or change there ways as the moneys to easy, As the say moneys the root of all evil..

[Belladonna1]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I think the OP would not only be taken advantage of but would become a partner backyard breeder herself. She would be extremely complicit with the whole mess! I am still not sure if the whelping would be better with Kendra than the owner/breeder. Now that it has suddenly come out that she has experience with 3 pug litters years ago, that is more than I realized when my opinions were first formed. Still, yorkies ARE different. It seems just a little over-the-top that she believes she can do a better job during delivery for this pregnant bitch and her pups than a BYB that has been at it for some time. She obviously has better ethics and heart, but that is not enough to whelp a litter of yorkies. Experience cannot be discounted in this circumstance.

So, what is being gained? She MAY be able to keep the puppies 12 weeks instead of 6. But there is no guarantee of that. The owner may just ask for them back at 6 weeks and sell them. If she is needing money, and a "cash crop" (in her eyes) is available, she may see the green and undo all that Kendra has tried to accomplish!

I doubt that she will spay the dam -- this is obviously an ongoing business concern for her and I am not sure you can instill a caring heart. She has looked at these dogs as money makers too long to suddenly decide to spay and neuter them all and keep them as pets. Miracles do happen, never know -- maybe she will get out of the business but I sure would not place a bet on it.

There are also the MANY legal questions that have been raised. Is there any contract in writing between the two? It seems to me Kendra is offering a "service" implying that she is capable of providing care and assistance in the delivery of these puppies. That would put her in a position of liability if something goes wrong. I would also be concerned about vet fees. If a C-section is required, that can get quite expensive.

While it is admirable that she wants to help, sometimes we tend to think our good intentions automatically puts us above all others and that just is not so. The mother and pups might just be better off being in the care of an experienced breeder (even though her ethics are in question). It was mentioned that she does not think the breeder would get vet care if something went wrong. What is she basing this on? Even the worst BYB understands that if they all die, there is no money made. I can't imagine them getting no care if it is needed. So many things can happen that require split second action on the part of the person attending a whelping. There is no time for getting on line (computer OR PHONE), no time to call the vet -- the person needs to KNOW what action they are going to take. Then there are the crucial days AFTER the births. Does she know what to watch for? What is a normal discharge and what signals a problem? What smell might signal a problem? What temp should momma read after? What is a warning temp? How much bleeding is natural and when does it become crucial to get care? Three weeks is NOT long enough to prepare! I studied for 2 years and it was still not enough in some ways, as no amount of study replaces experience.

I just think this is a situation rife with problems and there is no winning combination. The only benefit that is HOPED to be derived is to have the pups stay with their momma a little longer than they would have with the breeder. If you can talk her into GIVING you her pregnant girl for the delivery WHY ON EARTH can you not talk her into just keeping the puppies a little longer? My guess is she is chuckling in the background, thinking now that she has an assistant, she has more time to get even more breeding done!

This would be different if the pregnant girl was in danger, or if you were going to get to keep the girl afterwards to spay and love. But to just provide all this work time and not make any real changes -- I cannot see it is worth the very real dangers of culpability if something does go wrong. If you lose this momma dog, what will she do? People who don't care any more about animals than to treat them like money makers, are also the type to turn litigious when they get the opportunity. Are you prepared to pay her for the females and maybe even the litter if things do go terribly wrong?

As Ladyjane tried to get you to understand -- your good intentions could be put to so much better use if you were to visit a rescue or shelter and TRULY save a pup! Not just keep them with their mom a little longer but truly SAVE THEIR LIFE! You seem to have the heart for rescue and there are plenty that could use your help! Obviously, you cannot save all the pups in the world, or even in Texas, but if you really want to get involved, I would do it in a way that will make a continued difference. Even talking her into giving you the pregnant female after the pups are rehomed would be saving her and making a true difference. As another pointed out, sure she may just breed another, but you would have saved this girl from further misery AND ensured she got spayed to prevent more blue babies.

I know it is difficult to see something wrong and not step in to fix it. But we are not Gods, we can only do so much. So, I would suggest it would be SO MUCH BETTER to pick one pup in need and rescue it. Then if you can later, do it again. Saving pups one at a time -- really changing their lives for the better and sometimes stepping in to SAVE their LIFE completely (in the case of kill shelters) would be so much better than taking on all of this responsibility with so little impact made. I would cut ALL ties with this breeder. Leave her with written information to back up all that you have taught her and get as far away from her as possible. If there were really any unsafe or unhealthy conditions, report her to the authorities and then leave it at that. But that is JMHO. Prayers said for momma and pups -- no matter where they wind up for how long.

EXCELLENT!!! PERFECT WORDS SAID

[TexasKat08]

Kendra - you've gotten lots of input here and it must be very over-whelming to know what to do. I truly believe you are a good person with only the best of intentions. I have seen nothing but this in your previous threads. You want to do what you feel is right in your heart, but some valid questions have been raised. I understand (although I'm not sure I agree) why you have Mac's mommy, but why is the breeder willing to let you take this bitch and whelp this litter? She is the one with the experience whelping pups so would it not be in the best interest of the pups and the bitch to stay with the breeder? Have you discussed what will happen with the bitch and pups after the litter is whelped? Has she agreed to allow you to keep the pups and if so for how long? What are the breeder's expectations? So many questions.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I think the OP would not only be taken advantage of but would become a partner backyard breeder herself. She would be extremely complicit with the whole mess! I am still not sure if the whelping would be better with Kendra than the owner/breeder. Now that it has suddenly come out that she has experience with 3 pug litters years ago, that is more than I realized when my opinions were first formed. Still, yorkies ARE different. It seems just a little over-the-top that she believes she can do a better job during delivery for this pregnant bitch and her pups than a BYB that has been at it for some time. She obviously has better ethics and heart, but that is not enough to whelp a litter of yorkies. Experience cannot be discounted in this circumstance.

So, what is being gained? She MAY be able to keep the puppies 12 weeks instead of 6. But there is no guarantee of that. The owner may just ask for them back at 6 weeks and sell them. If she is needing money, and a "cash crop" (in her eyes) is available, she may see the green and undo all that Kendra has tried to accomplish!

I doubt that she will spay the dam -- this is obviously an ongoing business concern for her and I am not sure you can instill a caring heart. She has looked at these dogs as money makers too long to suddenly decide to spay and neuter them all and keep them as pets. Miracles do happen, never know -- maybe she will get out of the business but I sure would not place a bet on it.

There are also the MANY legal questions that have been raised. Is there any contract in writing between the two? It seems to me Kendra is offering a "service" implying that she is capable of providing care and assistance in the delivery of these puppies. That would put her in a position of liability if something goes wrong. I would also be concerned about vet fees. If a C-section is required, that can get quite expensive.

While it is admirable that she wants to help, sometimes we tend to think our good intentions automatically puts us above all others and that just is not so. The mother and pups might just be better off being in the care of an experienced breeder (even though her ethics are in question). It was mentioned that she does not think the breeder would get vet care if something went wrong. What is she basing this on? Even the worst BYB understands that if they all die, there is no money made. I can't imagine them getting no care if it is needed. So many things can happen that require split second action on the part of the person attending a whelping. There is no time for getting on line (computer OR PHONE), no time to call the vet -- the person needs to KNOW what action they are going to take. Then there are the crucial days AFTER the births. Does she know what to watch for? What is a normal discharge and what signals a problem? What smell might signal a problem? What temp should momma read after? What is a warning temp? How much bleeding is natural and when does it become crucial to get care? Three weeks is NOT long enough to prepare! I studied for 2 years and it was still not enough in some ways, as no amount of study replaces experience.

I just think this is a situation rife with problems and there is no winning combination. The only benefit that is HOPED to be derived is to have the pups stay with their momma a little longer than they would have with the breeder. If you can talk her into GIVING you her pregnant girl for the delivery WHY ON EARTH can you not talk her into just keeping the puppies a little longer? My guess is she is chuckling in the background, thinking now that she has an assistant, she has more time to get even more breeding done!

This would be different if the pregnant girl was in danger, or if you were going to get to keep the girl afterwards to spay and love. But to just provide all this work time and not make any real changes -- I cannot see it is worth the very real dangers of culpability if something does go wrong. If you lose this momma dog, what will she do? People who don't care any more about animals than to treat them like money makers, are also the type to turn litigious when they get the opportunity. Are you prepared to pay her for the females and maybe even the litter if things do go terribly wrong?

As Ladyjane tried to get you to understand -- your good intentions could be put to so much better use if you were to visit a rescue or shelter and TRULY save a pup! Not just keep them with their mom a little longer but truly SAVE THEIR LIFE! You seem to have the heart for rescue and there are plenty that could use your help! Obviously, you cannot save all the pups in the world, or even in Texas, but if you really want to get involved, I would do it in a way that will make a continued difference. Even talking her into giving you the pregnant female after the pups are rehomed would be saving her and making a true difference. As another pointed out, sure she may just breed another, but you would have saved this girl from further misery AND ensured she got spayed to prevent more blue babies.

I know it is difficult to see something wrong and not step in to fix it. But we are not Gods, we can only do so much. So, I would suggest it would be SO MUCH BETTER to pick one pup in need and rescue it. Then if you can later, do it again. Saving pups one at a time -- really changing their lives for the better and sometimes stepping in to SAVE their LIFE completely (in the case of kill shelters) would be so much better than taking on all of this responsibility with so little impact made. I would cut ALL ties with this breeder. Leave her with written information to back up all that you have taught her and get as far away from her as possible. If there were really any unsafe or unhealthy conditions, report her to the authorities and then leave it at that. But that is JMHO. Prayers said for momma and pups -- no matter where they wind up for how long.

Definitely sums it all up.