When is to early to deworm?

[Cooper2010]

I still want to know why the tags are there. The issue is being curiously avoided.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Cooper2010

I still want to know why the tags are there. The issue is being curiously avoided.

I thought I answered that.


Tags are words for search engines to pick up when some does a search. So if someone does a search for Tammy Harrison this thread will come up.

I do believe that tags are abused and personally i don't think they should be allowed.

[chachi]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I thought I answered that.


Tags are words for search engines to pick up when some does a search. So if someone does a search for Tammy Harrison this thread will come up.

I do believe that tags are abused and personally i don't think they should be allowed.

I dont think they should be either

[bjh]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

That is not the issue here. the issue is should puppies be dewormed routinely, without first determining if the have worms.


New research shows that it is not good and should not be done. Feeding poison to our puppies unnecessarily is not good. it causes other issues down the road. Why not just get a simple stool sample test done first.

One little test. And then if the puppies do have worms, you can treat all of your dogs, because if one has worms, chances are they all do, and you can prevent it the next time by keeping your adult dogs worm free, and you won't have to deworm the puppies.

it's about education, it's about new breeders learning from experienced breeders.

I agree that puppies should not be wormed unless they have worms. I think this thread is a learning tool for those that don't know about worms, coccidia and giardia. Puppy buyers and new breeders need to be made aware of the dangers of coccidia and giardia because they can be deadly if not treated immediately. Over the years I have talked to a number of people that lost puppies to coccidia and giardia. Some people get a false security when they worm their puppies, whether by themselves or by a vet, so then when the pup gets sick and gets diarrhea they assume it might be because of the worm medicine but in reality the pups could have coccidia or giardia. It is something you just can't ignore.

[k Owensk9]

Originally Posted by Cooper2010

I'm finding it hard to believe that a person who's been here since 2006 with over 2500 posts is all of the sudden a bad/backyard breeder over deworming methods.

It seems vindictive. Just my opinion.

It also leads me to believe that the tagging feature may be easily abused.

I'm just learning about this tagging my self---wow I could go and tag anyone that disagreed with me ! sounds silly--I could say anyone was a bad breeder---right ? My husband and I disagree some time that doesn't make him a bad husband ! Come on people--there are persons asking questions--really needing an answer--we are running them off with our bickering ! that's crazy---can't you just say--"I disagree with this comment-- I would suggest doing XYZ " That would be a more professional comment----I have strong opinions but I TRY to never force it on others. NO ONE LIKES TO BE CALLED A BAD BREEDER---this gets ones dander UP !! I really enjoy good honest talk about our breeding programs and medications and such--Can't we do that ?

[k Owensk9]

Originally Posted by bjh

I know some people that bought dogs from well know show breeders and their dogs had coccidia and/or giardia. Anyone that has a large number of dogs is at risk of getting it no matter how clean they try to keep their place.

Your exactly correct. Your dogs could be clean as can be and a bird could drink out of their water dish and give them Coccidia or giardia. In my opinion it's how the breeder handles the situation with the new owner of the puppy or dog. If we refuse to believe our dog could have giardia that's the problem. At any moment we could have a puppy break with anything---it's how we handle the matter--that's MY OPINION !

[Woogie Man]

I don't think there's any single answer for deworming protocols. Even when doing searches, you'll find a variety of answers.

The following that I pasted is the most common rationale that I've heard.

"Roundworms have an odd life cycle. There are dormant larvae in the tissues of most adult dogs and these can be activated around the 42nd day of the pregnancy and then migrate to the fetuses in the uterus and become active infections. Due to this, and the apparent safety of fenbendazole for use during pregnancy, some reproductive specialists advise giving fenbendazole during the the last stages of pregnancy to try to interrupt this tissue migration. Fenbendazole must be given for three days in a row to be effective and the dose is 50mg/kg per day for roundworms in dogs. The suspension from of fenbendazole (Panacur Suspension tm, Safeguard Suspension tm) are 100mg/ml, so the dose would be approximately 1ml per 4 lbs of body weight. I haven't actually seen any studies to verify that this works well but it is a good theory and should be safe to try. The recommendations in the Merck manual seem a little excessive, to me, but fenbendazole is pretty safe and it probably wouldn't cause any harm to give it from the 40th day of pregnancy to the 14th day of gestation. "

From this link.

Parasitic Worms found in Dogs

The Merck manual study that's referred to above is this.

"While it has long been recognized that transplacental and transmammary infection of ascarids and hookworms could be prevented through prophylactic treatment of pregnant dogs, no drugs are currently approved for this use. However, the effectiveness of this approach with different drugs approved for parasite control in dogs has been well documented. Daily treatment of pregnant dogs with fenbendazole from the 40th day of gestation through the 14th day of lactation has been shown to inhibit T. canis larvae in tissues, thereby preventing or greatly reducing the incidence of infection in puppies.19 Alternatively, studies have shown that treatment with ivermectin on day 0, 30, 60 of gestation and 10 days post whelping, reduced the adult T. canis worm burden in pups by 100% and prevented the shedding of eggs.20 In yet another study, treatment with selamectin at 10 and 40 days both before and after parturition was effective in reducing T. canis fecal egg counts in both pups and their dams, and adult worms in the pups."

From this link...

Guidelines for Veterinarians: Prevention of Zoonotic Transmission of Ascarids and Hookworms of Dogs and Cats

While I wouldn't follow what is described in the last quote, I do think it's safe to go with the protocol in the first quote. As that quote states, worms may be dormant in a dam's system until activated during pregnancy and could migrate to the pups. Not all wormers are safe to use with pregnant dams, so that needs to be checked before use.

One thing that stands out to me in this thread is how wormers are referenced as poison that will harm the pups. Most wormers are considered safe if used appropriately and the 'poison' issue is kind of a red herring IMO.

One thing I would like to address is the use of heartworm prevention. While necessary, these pesticides have a much higher toxicity value than dewormers and most recommendations I've seen do not advise using them before a pup is 5 months old. I think many breeders and new pup owners are starting pups out on this much too young and, to me, this is a dangerous practice.

[chachi]

[QUOTE=Woogie Man;3179230]I don't think there's any single answer for deworming protocols. Even when doing searches, you'll find a variety of answers.

The following that I pasted is the most common rationale that I've heard.

"Roundworms have an odd life cycle. There are dormant larvae in the tissues of most adult dogs and these can be activated around the 42nd day of the pregnancy and then migrate to the fetuses in the uterus and become active infections. Due to this, and the apparent safety of fenbendazole for use during pregnancy, some reproductive specialists advise giving fenbendazole during the the last stages of pregnancy to try to interrupt this tissue migration. Fenbendazole must be given for three days in a row to be effective and the dose is 50mg/kg per day for roundworms in dogs. The suspension from of fenbendazole (Panacur Suspension tm, Safeguard Suspension tm) are 100mg/ml, so the dose would be approximately 1ml per 4 lbs of body weight. I haven't actually seen any studies to verify that this works well but it is a good theory and should be safe to try. The recommendations in the Merck manual seem a little excessive, to me, but fenbendazole is pretty safe and it probably wouldn't cause any harm to give it from the 40th day of pregnancy to the 14th day of gestation. "

From this link.

Parasitic Worms found in Dogs

The Merck manual study that's referred to above is this.

"While it has long been recognized that transplacental and transmammary infection of ascarids and hookworms could be prevented through prophylactic treatment of pregnant dogs, no drugs are currently approved for this use. However, the effectiveness of this approach with different drugs approved for parasite control in dogs has been well documented. Daily treatment of pregnant dogs with fenbendazole from the 40th day of gestation through the 14th day of lactation has been shown to inhibit T. canis larvae in tissues, thereby preventing or greatly reducing the incidence of infection in puppies.19 Alternatively, studies have shown that treatment with ivermectin on day 0, 30, 60 of gestation and 10 days post whelping, reduced the adult T. canis worm burden in pups by 100% and prevented the shedding of eggs.20 In yet another study, treatment with selamectin at 10 and 40 days both before and after parturition was effective in reducing T. canis fecal egg counts in both pups and their dams, and adult worms in the pups."

From this link...

Guidelines for Veterinarians: Prevention of Zoonotic Transmission of Ascarids and Hookworms of Dogs and Cats

While I wouldn't follow what is described in the last quote, I do think it's safe to go with the protocol in the first quote. As that quote states, worms may be dormant in a dam's system until activated during pregnancy and could migrate to the pups. Not all wormers are safe to use with pregnant dams, so that needs to be checked before use.

One thing that stands out to me in this thread is how wormers are referenced as poison that will harm the pups. Most wormers are considered safe if used appropriately and the 'poison' issue is kind of a red herring IMO.

One thing I would like to address is the use of heartworm prevention. While necessary, these pesticides have a much higher toxicity value than dewormers and most recommendations I've seen do not advise using them before a pup is 5 months old. I think many breeders and new pup owners are starting pups out on this much too young and, to me, this is a dangerous practice.[/

Mine were 4 or 5 months old before My vet started them on heartworm

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I don't think there's any single answer for deworming protocols. Even when doing searches, you'll find a variety of answers.

The following that I pasted is the most common rationale that I've heard.

"Roundworms have an odd life cycle. There are dormant larvae in the tissues of most adult dogs and these can be activated around the 42nd day of the pregnancy and then migrate to the fetuses in the uterus and become active infections. Due to this, and the apparent safety of fenbendazole for use during pregnancy, some reproductive specialists advise giving fenbendazole during the the last stages of pregnancy to try to interrupt this tissue migration. Fenbendazole must be given for three days in a row to be effective and the dose is 50mg/kg per day for roundworms in dogs. The suspension from of fenbendazole (Panacur Suspension tm, Safeguard Suspension tm) are 100mg/ml, so the dose would be approximately 1ml per 4 lbs of body weight. I haven't actually seen any studies to verify that this works well but it is a good theory and should be safe to try. The recommendations in the Merck manual seem a little excessive, to me, but fenbendazole is pretty safe and it probably wouldn't cause any harm to give it from the 40th day of pregnancy to the 14th day of gestation. "

From this link.

Parasitic Worms found in Dogs

The Merck manual study that's referred to above is this.

"While it has long been recognized that transplacental and transmammary infection of ascarids and hookworms could be prevented through prophylactic treatment of pregnant dogs, no drugs are currently approved for this use. However, the effectiveness of this approach with different drugs approved for parasite control in dogs has been well documented. Daily treatment of pregnant dogs with fenbendazole from the 40th day of gestation through the 14th day of lactation has been shown to inhibit T. canis larvae in tissues, thereby preventing or greatly reducing the incidence of infection in puppies.19 Alternatively, studies have shown that treatment with ivermectin on day 0, 30, 60 of gestation and 10 days post whelping, reduced the adult T. canis worm burden in pups by 100% and prevented the shedding of eggs.20 In yet another study, treatment with selamectin at 10 and 40 days both before and after parturition was effective in reducing T. canis fecal egg counts in both pups and their dams, and adult worms in the pups."

From this link...

Guidelines for Veterinarians: Prevention of Zoonotic Transmission of Ascarids and Hookworms of Dogs and Cats

While I wouldn't follow what is described in the last quote, I do think it's safe to go with the protocol in the first quote. As that quote states, worms may be dormant in a dam's system until activated during pregnancy and could migrate to the pups. Not all wormers are safe to use with pregnant dams, so that needs to be checked before use.

One thing that stands out to me in this thread is how wormers are referenced as poison that will harm the pups. Most wormers are considered safe if used appropriately and the 'poison' issue is kind of a red herring IMO.

One thing I would like to address is the use of heartworm prevention. While necessary, these pesticides have a much higher toxicity value than dewormers and most recommendations I've seen do not advise using them before a pup is 5 months old. I think many breeders and new pup owners are starting pups out on this much too young and, to me, this is a dangerous practice.

Just in case there is some confusion, some of the breeders were saying they give the heartworm meds to the mother two weeks after the puppies are whelped and the puppies are getting the meds through mothers milk. Prior to restarting the heartworm meds, mother has to be retested.

[Shasha]

Originally Posted by tammy8833

i usually DO deworm at 2 weeks..but after reading things here about waiting on wormer and vaccations..i waited on my last litter...and didnt deworm until 5 weeks old...do you know that every puppy had piles and piles of worms with in an hour? i will never wait again...i have never had worms come out of puppies...

but they are dogs, their parents are dogs..and being dogs they do, do ewy things and touch and eat ewy things and its common and typical for dogs to get worms and pass them on..

so yes i think its a good idea to worm at 2 weeks old

yep..im in full support of that...start at 2 weeks with a mild wormer....if any of my pups are really small, (i have a 5 week old who is 2 weeks premature and a orphan)..i will worm her at 6 weeks (4 weeks).

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Shasha

yep..im in full support of that...start at 2 weeks with a mild wormer....if any of my pups are really small, (i have a 5 week old who is 2 weeks premature and a orphan)..i will worm her at 6 weeks (4 weeks).

It always amazes me when new or realtively new breeders will not even consider what a long time experienced breeder, has to say. Some of the breeders on here have forgotten more than the rest of us will ever know about breeding. They could write a book on it. And yet they are willing to share their expertise with us for free. And still, their advice is casually dismissed.

Why on earth would anyone feed poison to a puppy unnecessarily? Knowing that it can cause cancer later in life.

And why, if your adult dogs are worm free, do you think your puppies have worms? Where did they get them, if not from the adults?

And why would you not have a stool sample checked to make sure, so if they do have worms, you can treat all of your dogs, to stop the on going infestation? Because if your puppies have worms, your adult dogs do also.

More info on over vaccinating for those who really want what is best for the puppies.

Stop the Shots - NOW - Home

[k Owensk9]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

It always amazes me when new or realtively new breeders will not even consider what a long time experienced breeder, has to say. Some of the breeders on here have forgotten more than the rest of us will ever know about breeding. They could write a book on it. And yet they are willing to share their expertise with us for free. And still, their advice is casually dismissed.

Why on earth would anyone feed poison to a puppy unnecessarily? Knowing that it can cause cancer later in life.

And why, if your adult dogs are worm free, do you think your puppies have worms? Where did they get them, if not from the adults?

And why would you not have a stool sample checked to make sure, so if they do have worms, you can treat all of your dogs, to stop the on going infestation? Because if your puppies have worms, your adult dogs do also.

More info on over vaccinating for those who really want what is best for the puppies.

Stop the Shots - NOW - Home

That's YOUR opinion---some people believe other wise---ME ! And several others it looks like---I worm my pups regular--puppies DIE from worms if not treated. I've bred dogs for 28 years--I've a lot of experiance . I'm not telling you what to do so WHY are you telling some of us what to do ??? Sounds like a Shark attack !! From now on I'll post "Shark attack" when some one crosses the line !!! Shark attack.

[jackson25]

Originally Posted by k Owensk9

That's YOUR opinion---some people believe other wise---ME ! And several others it looks like---I worm my pups regular--puppies DIE from worms if not treated. I've bred dogs for 28 years--I've a lot of experiance . I'm not telling you what to do so WHY are you telling some of us what to do ??? Sounds like a Shark attack !! From now on I'll post "Shark attack" when some one crosses the line !!! Shark attack.

It may as well be just an opinion, but there is plenty of research on the pros of not injecting chemicals if not necessary, just like over vaccinating. I am in no way trying to TELL someone what to do and not to do, just giving advice on how times change and with research and education there becomes better ways to do things. If I can prevent my puppies from obtaining cancer and any other complications as they grow, I am all for it! Taking a stool sample to my vet and having it tested is not hard for me to do.

[k Owensk9]

Originally Posted by jackson25

It may as well be just an opinion, but there is plenty of research on the pros of not injecting chemicals if not necessary, just like over vaccinating. I am in no way trying to TELL someone what to do and not to do, just giving advice on how times change and with research and education there becomes better ways to do things. If I can prevent my puppies from obtaining cancer and any other complications as they grow, I am all for it! Taking a stool sample to my vet and having it tested is not hard for me to do.

This is a nice comment---your not attacking anyone just stating your opinion. thank you

[k Owensk9]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

It always amazes me when new or realtively new breeders will not even consider what a long time experienced breeder, has to say. Some of the breeders on here have forgotten more than the rest of us will ever know about breeding. They could write a book on it. And yet they are willing to share their expertise with us for free. And still, their advice is casually dismissed.

Why on earth would anyone feed poison to a puppy unnecessarily? Knowing that it can cause cancer later in life.

And why, if your adult dogs are worm free, do you think your puppies have worms? Where did they get them, if not from the adults?

And why would you not have a stool sample checked to make sure, so if they do have worms, you can treat all of your dogs, to stop the on going infestation? Because if your puppies have worms, your adult dogs do also.

More info on over vaccinating for those who really want what is best for the puppies.

Stop the Shots - NOW - Home

I looked at this web site and it's OVERSEAS !!! MY goodness if I din't vaccinate for Parvo---I'd loose every puppies born ! Parvo is a VERY BAD problem in Oklahoma--I vaccinate Every puppy at 5 weeks and 7 weeks---I do NOT HAVE A PARVO PROBLEM !!! If you want to risk Parvo--be my guest ! I don't----I can't tell you how many times I've gone to the Vet and walked in on a case of parvo---thank goodness I vaccinated my pups I was taking for HEALTH PAPERS ___ no they were NOT sick !!