When is to early to deworm?

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I didn't know that you lived in CB. When did you leave here?

We live out in the country, up on a hill, where there is no standing water, and always a breeze, which is probably why we are not bothered by mosquitoes.

I have weiner roasts and we sit out and visit way past dark and no one is bothered by mosqitoes.

However I am going to do more research on which is the best way to go. I know there is a risk, as there is a risk with anything, coyotes, halks, owls etc. But there are also the dangers of cancer from repeated exposer to pesticides.

I don't use flea preventers unless I see a flea, and most years I never see one, if I do, I treat one time, unless a second dose is warranted.

Jeanie I don't really do flea prevention per say. I've only had a couple. Only because I was set up at a show next to some working dog. And her dogs had them....she was using the blow dryer and guess what? They blew onto my dog. Went by the grocery store on the way back to the hotel. Picked up Dawn Orignal Formula. Bathed him in that....it was done.

I did have to deworm my group once, when I brought home a girl that had them. Even the pups at 6 weeks of age. Using NemexII. I didn't as a preventative. NemexII is very mild, no cramping, no nothing. But, again I don't do it as a preventative. I only take in a sample of the entire litter, to ease the minds of my potential families. But, have never had any litters test positive.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I have yet to find a vet that I 'fully' trust. I am on my third one in the last seven years. He works with me and we have good communication and I think it's likely the best I'll do around here. There is a wonderful clinic in Mandeville, LA that I completely trust and that is where I go when the need arises (I've been twice). They're fully staffed with specialists, have all the diagnostic equipment and are open 24 hrs.

I trust my vet, He makes reccomendations, but does not push if I decline. I know that when it comes to whelping that his expertise is limited. So I turn to breeders for advice and information.

I realize that vets like to push products, and yearly vaccinations, it's good money for them. But he knows that I do not believe in yearly vaccinations so he doesn't push. Some vets refuse to see them, if they are not current on their vaccinations.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Jeanie I don't really do flea prevention per say. I've only had a couple. Only because I was set up at a show next to some working dog. And her dogs had them....she was using the blow dryer and guess what? They blew onto my dog. Went by the grocery store on the way back to the hotel. Picked up Dawn Orignal Formula. Bathed him in that....it was done.

I did have to deworm my group once, when I brought home a girl that had them. Even the pups at 6 weeks of age. Using NemexII. I didn't as a preventative. NemexII is very mild, no cramping, no nothing. But, again I don't do it as a preventative. I only take in a sample of the entire litter, to ease the minds of my potential families. But, have never had any litters test positive.

I used the Dawn dishsoap once on a pregnant girl, it worked great. One bath and they were gone.

I wormed the entire bunch just one time, when one buyer said her dog had giardia, including the 6 week old litter I still had. Went through the entire program of albon and panacur.

I wondered at the time how her puppy could have it when none of the rest of the dogs showed any signs. 5 weeks later, I sold the younger pups, that had been wormed several times, and one of those buyers said the puppy had worms. So decided it really didn't matter. some vets are determined to sell worming meds.

Now, if I suspected worms, I would take in a stool sample before doing anything. But out of all the puppies that I have sold there were only the 2 that reported worms and I still question that.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I used the Dawn dishsoap once on a pregnant girl, it worked great. One bath and they were gone.

I wormed the entire bunch just one time, when one buyer said her dog had giardia, including the 6 week old litter I still had. Went through the entire program of albon and panacur.

I wondered at the time how her puppy could have it when none of the rest of the dogs showed any signs. 5 weeks later, I sold the younger pups, that had been wormed several times, and one of those buyers said the puppy had worms. So decided it really didn't matter. some vets are determined to sell worming meds.

Now, if I suspected worms, I would take in a stool sample before doing anything. But out of all the puppies that I have sold there were only the 2 that reported worms and I still question that.

You know when administering Albon, that no other med can be administered at the same either. It can cause, allergic reaction, damage and/or death.

Again, I do take a sample in. Always add a copy of the result into the baby book I give to my new families. Within the book is my contract, which states, that if worms are detected by their vet, on the initial exam, I will pay for the meds. Simple as that. My clients call me as soon as they've had their initial vet exam and never, never have a case of worms been reported. But, if they did, what's a few dollars. Even though I hate needles meds to be adminstered and will always explain that to my families.

[JeanieK]

Something to think about. Apparently even some dogs that are on preventatives are still getting heartworms

The Latest News on the Heartworm Epidemic
Posted on January 18th, 2010 by FindRetrievers.com Admin

Prevention and treatment of Heartworms in our canine companions has become quite complicated in the last several years. As you can see by looking at the following Heartworm Incidence Survey Map published by the American Heartworm Society (AHS), the rate of Heartworm infected dogs has greatly increased since 2001. These surveys are requested every 3 years by the AHS from over 40,000 veterinary clinics around the nation. Another survey will be released in 2010. http://www.heartwormsociety.org/veterin ... slide.html

In November of 2008 the AHS issued a warning attributed to a rise in mosquito populations for pet owners to continue year-round heartworm protection. “The risk from the increased mosquito population makes the need for prevention even greater this year,” says Dr. Sheldon Rubin, American Heartworm Society president and Chicago area practitioner.

American Heartworm Society | News Releases

What is not being released by the AHS, which is sponsored by large animal pharmaceutical companies such as Merial, Pfizer, and Bayer, is that many of these heartworm positive dogs were already on heartworm preventatives.

While Ivermectin resistance has already been reported in many nematodes, previous studies show no reports of resistance in filarial nematodes such as Dirofilaria immitis (parasitic roundworm called heartworm). The Merck Veterinary Manual already states, “…there are reports of ivermectin resistance in Cooperia oncophora , C punctata , and Haemonchus placei . Anthelmintic resistance among nematode parasites of cattle is possibly more widespread than realized and needs more investigation.” Is the recent outbreak of heartworms in dogs currently on preventatives a sign of filarial nematode resistance to Ivermectin in particular areas of the country?

Many studies must be done in order to determine if the current epidemic is due to Avermectin resistance in D. Immitis, but we can be sure that there is something going on in the Mississippi delta with large numbers of dogs on preventatives becoming heartworm infected.

If this is the case, then what are a pet owner’s choices for prevention of heartworms? As stated in the Merck Veterinary Manual “When resistance to the recommended dose rate of ivermectin appears, moxidectin, at its recommended dose rate, is usually still effective. However, there is cross-resistance between the avermectins and the milbemycins, and the use of either subgroup will select for macrocyclic lactone resistance.”

http://merckveterinarymanual.com/mvm/in ... 191506.htm

Commercially Available Preventatives

MOXIDECTIN based: (can be given to heartworm-positive pets with no adverse side affects)

• Advantage-Multi by Bayer (2.5 mg/kg Moxidectin) Topical application controls Heartworms, Fleas, Hookworms, Roundworms, Whipworms
• Pro-Heart 6 injectable (previously removed from the market by the FDA) made by Fort Dodge a division of Wyeth which has merged with Pfizer. Controls Heartworms and Hookworms.

IVERMECTIN based: (no adverse reaction if this medication is given to a dog that is positive for heartworms)

• Heartgard and Heartgard Plus by Merial (.006 mg/kg Ivermectin) Oral heartworm preventative. Heartgard Plus also controls roundworms and hookworms
• Iverhart Plus by Virbac (.006 mg/kg Ivermectin) Oral - heartworm, roundworm and hookworms. Iverhart Max also controls tapeworms.
• Tri-Heart Plus by Intervet/Schering Plough (n/s) Oral - heartworm, roundworm and hookworm.

MILBEMYCIN based: (can cause problems if given to a dog that is positive for heartworm infection. Because the larvae die much faster with Milbemycin, it can create a shock to the dog’s system)

• Interceptor by Novartis (.5 mg/kg) Oral - heartworms, roundworms, hookworms and whipworms
• Sentinel by Novartis (.5 mg/kg) Oral - heartworm, flea, roundworm, hookworms, and whipworms

SELAMECTIN based: (safe to use in heartworm-infected animals)

• Revolution by Pfizer ( 6 mg/kg) Topical - heartworms, fleas, ticks, ear mites, sarcoptic mange

Treatment

Recent research has LED to the discovery of a parasite called Wolbachia that lives symbiotically inside heartworms. Studies indicate that this parasite contributes to the adverse effects of both heartworm infection and heartworm treatment, including inflammation, embolism and allergic reaction. Treatment with doxycycline to kill the Wolbachia parasite weakens the heartworms and makes them unable to reproduce which lessens their adverse effects on the body and greatly reduces the chance of adverse reaction during heartworm treatment.

New studies published in late 2008 clearly indicate that treatment with a combination of weekly ivermectin and daily doxycycline given intermittently will sterilize the heartworms, prevent the dog from being infective to other dogs, speed up the death of the worms prior to (or in place of) Immiticide treatment, limit inflammation and damage caused by the worms presence, and reduce the chance of serious adverse reaction from Immiticide treatment. All of these effects are greater when the two drugs are used together than when either is given alone.

Three studies used a protocol of ivermectin (Heartgard) given weekly at the normal monthly heartworm preventative dose (6 mcg/kg), combined with doxycycline at the rate of 10 mg/kg/day for weeks 1-6, 10-11, 16-17, 22-25, and 28-33 (the end of the studies). The findings show these results:

Reduction of adult worms was as follows:
• 8.7% for Doxycycline only
• 20.3% for Ivermectin only
• 78.3% for Ivermectin + Doxcycline
• 92.8% for Ivermectin + Doxycycline + Immiticide
• 100% for Immiticide alone

Mosquitoes that fed on blood from DOXY-treated dogs had L3 normal in appearance but were not infective for dogs. Preliminary observations suggest that administration of Doxycycline and Ivermectine for several months prior to (or without) MEL will eliminate adult HW with less potential for severe thromboembolism than MEL alone.

Heartworm and Wolbachia: therapeutic implications. [Vet Parasitol. 2008] - PubMed result

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

You know when administering Albon, that no other med can be administered at the same either. It can cause, allergic reaction, damage and/or death.

Again, I do take a sample in. Always add a copy of the result into the baby book I give to my new families. Within the book is my contract, which states, that if worms are detected by their vet, on the initial exam, I will pay for the meds. Simple as that. My clients call me as soon as they've had their initial vet exam and never, never have a case of worms been reported. But, if they did, what's a few dollars. Even though I hate needles meds to be adminstered and will always explain that to my families.

I was told by my breeder ( a long time show breeder) to start the Albon and give it for 10 days, To start the panacur 5 days after starting the albon and to give it for 5 days, therefore ending them both at the same time.

[rbelland]

Originally Posted by tammy8833

you dont think its cause he wants the money for the test ..either way he profits

he tests..$15
worms $15.00
he test and no worms? still made 15.00

Oh give it up that's a bunch of crap. Yeah the vets want money that is their job. You want money too right? Then what is the problem with taking a sample to the vet to be sure. Is $15.00 that important to you.

Do what you do, that's your biz but don't crap on everyone else for giving advise to have the op seek her vets opinion. Good grief!

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I was told by my breeder ( a long time show breeder) to start the Albon and give it for 10 days, To start the panacur 5 days after starting the albon and to give it for 5 days, therefore ending them both at the same time.

If you ever have reason to administer it again. Do a search and please talk to your vet. I found this out the hard way, with one of my first yorkies.......

[rbelland]

Originally Posted by tammy8833

to the op..please ask your vet for the best information..cant trust what you read online

Now you want to tell the op to go to the vet??? WOW

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

If you ever have reason to administer it again. Do a search and please talk to your vet. I found this out the hard way, with one of my first yorkies.......

I respect and appreciate your advice. If I ever have to treat again I will research it.

[tammy8833]

Originally Posted by rbelland

Oh give it up that's a bunch of crap. Yeah the vets want money that is their job. You want money too right? Then what is the problem with taking a sample to the vet to be sure. Is $15.00 that important to you.

Do what you do, that's your biz but don't crap on everyone else for giving advise to have the op seek her vets opinion. Good grief!

nope $15 isnt that much..but then again i do like saving money 15x7 could be a nice chunk to hold on too..

miss attitude

yes the vets want money and they will get it any way they can...they tell u lets do a fecal either way..but thats their job..to sell you stuff

i d rather take care of it my self and have no need to run poop to the vet..

[tammy8833]

Originally Posted by rbelland

Now you want to tell the op to go to the vet??? WOW

yup im tellin her since it some much mixed info..to call her vet and ask his opinion on what she should do..

and as all docs/vets they will tell her to come in and lets talk..and she will walk out with owing more $$$$$ then necessary

[Woogie Man]

Partial Quote

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Three studies used a protocol of ivermectin (Heartgard) given weekly at the normal monthly heartworm preventative dose (6 mcg/kg), combined with doxycycline at the rate of 10 mg/kg/day for weeks 1-6, 10-11, 16-17, 22-25, and 28-33 (the end of the studies). The findings show these results:

Reduction of adult worms was as follows:
• 8.7% for Doxycycline only
• 20.3% for Ivermectin only
• 78.3% for Ivermectin + Doxcycline
• 92.8% for Ivermectin + Doxycycline + Immiticide
• 100% for Immiticide alone

Interesting info, Jeanie. I wanted to comment on the part quoted.

This is not to dispute the info, but I've read of using several variations of treatment. The rate of killing the heartworms varies but all seem effective. It seems to depend on how long a person will accept their dog being heartworm positive, but the faster the kill, the more risk to the dog.

Immiticide is the standard vet treatment. It kills very quickly but the fast kill can cause pulmonary embolisms (hope that's correct) and the dog must be kept confined for the entire period of treatment.

Ivermectin alone is what I've seen the most about. The amount and frequency of dosage will determine the kill rate. Using ivermection in only the preventative dose monthly will kill heartworms, but it can take up to 2 years of the dog showing positive for them. It doesn't actually kill them, but kills the larvae so puts a stop to the infestation. It also will render the adult worms unable to reproduce and will shorten the life span of them. The dog will flush them out slowly and has much less risk of effects from expelling them than with a faster kill. Using ivermection is the first step in the standard vet protocol, too, in order to kill the larvae.

One other thing I found interesting in your post was the questioning of these (heartworm) parasites becoming resistant. I have recently been reading about how some recommend switching de-wormers periodically to avoid resistance by those (roundworm, hookworm, tapeworm) parasites. There is a little info out there if you google something like 'rotating de-wormers in dogs'.

[rbelland]

Originally Posted by tammy8833

nope $15 isnt that much..but then again i do like saving money 15x7 could be a nice chunk to hold on too..

miss attitude

yes the vets want money and they will get it any way they can...they tell u lets do a fecal either way..but thats their job..to sell you stuff

i d rather take care of it my self and have no need to run poop to the vet..

That would be MRS. to you young lady. Tells me a lot about your breeding program also...... How sad

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by tammy8833

yup im tellin her since it some much mixed info..to call her vet and ask his opinion on what she should do..

and as all docs/vets they will tell her to come in and lets talk..and she will walk out with owing more $$$$$ then necessary

Tammy,

What has been said is find a vet that you can trust that is vetting for the love of the animal. Yes, they are out there. Not all are out to nickle and dime you.

Taking a sample in is the responsible thing and in the best interest in the pups. But, like I said if you administer heartworm, you have nothing to worry about. Deworming is needless.

Doing a collective sample on a litter only cost as one. So, you don't have to 7x15