I want a Biewer/parti yorkie

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Donna, you've always been crystal clear in your thoughts on breeding. I hope you don't refrain from comments about what you look for and try to achieve with your breeding program. It's very enlightening and I'm sure I'm not the only one that really appreciates them.

Jim

Thank you Jim! I won't refrain from comments on the yorkie standard breed but will from now on try and stay off the Parti issue as I will continue to disagree with until the standard changes
I'd rather stay friends with my one and only Parti friend so I will refrain from the Parti issue as I like Tammy and do not want to hurt her feelings.

Donna

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Nancy, I know it's sometimes hard to decipher a person's true meaning from typed words, but you seem to infer that Mr. Biewer somehow was more honorable in his development of the Biewer than Parti breeders. I don't see how you can say he 'wasn't just breeding for pets' as the Biewer could not be shown and he even had to shop around for a registry to paper them with. Also, in an earlier post, you mentioned something about parti breeders inbreeding and that you wouldn't recommend them. Just how do you think Mr. Biewer was able to develop his dogs without intensive in-breeding? He started out with only 2 and that was only in the 1980's. You just can't here from there without in-breeding.

I think the Biewer is a lovely dog, but honestly, the more I find out about them, the more confused I am. They either are/are not a Yorkshire Terrier; you either breed them with Yorkies or not..very confusing. I guess it will be some time before there's a shake out and things get set for the breed. In any case, they aren't recognized by AKC and, if I remember correctly, have been determined to be a mixed breed by at least one German registry.

I just say that in contrast to the Parti, which has been determined to be a Yorkie, has been around for many years, and is recognized by AKC. This is what makes your post puzzling.

I would just like to see both Parti and Biewer breeders take their breedings seriously and develop long term goals. I think some are doing so, and that's a good thing for any breed. I have seen one Parti breeder here (kpstoybox I think) mention more than once that the parti is not yet where they want it to be in quality and will take some time. Statements like that indicate that a breeder has both goals and a critical eye....absolute necessities in a breeding program.

I don't think any of us traditional Yorkie breeders are going to dissuade Parti and Biewer breeders. They certainly don't need my blessing to continue. I will just wish them well in their endeavors, different as they may be from mine.

I really get tired of this back and forth every time a Parti or Biewer thread pops up. I remember the thread where Tammy was having such trouble with Livi and her pups and folks came together then to offer help, regardless of their breeding program. I'd just like to see more of that spirit here than continually beating a long-dead horse.

I can't comment too much on Mr. Biewer, it depends whom you read on the information you get, not too many Biewer clubs agree on the same thing. My point is that he did seem to have a goal in mind, perhaps he was just a parti breeder, but from what I've read, he seemed to have a goal beyond breeding pets. I do believe some Biewer breeders have a goal beyond this as well, perhaps some parti breeders do too. There are some very interesting things I've read about the differences between Biewers and Yorkies, and who knows if these differences will prove to be true. You are correct that Mr. Biewer did do lots of inbreeding, and from my understanding some of the Biewer clubs, are very aware of the health risks, and do keep each other informed of some of ways to handle it, and test for it. That's why clubs that really are looking toward a future can be helpful, breeders who are breeding for the right reasons, are going to be honest in the things they learn, and not try to keep things hidden, because it will destroy their line. I agree with your comment:

I have seen one Parti breeder here (kpstoybox I think) mention more than once that the parti is not yet where they want it to be in quality and will take some time. Statements like that indicate that a breeder has both goals and a critical eye....absolute necessities in a breeding program.

You are not sure which breeder made the comment, but I agree the comment is a good one. I just see too many "carrier" pups pushed as breeders, and they have no other qualities besides being a carrier. I do not think a breeder should breed something out of standard to make her "colors pop". It literally makes me sick when I read something like that. I wish it didn't bother me.

Concerning beating a dead horse, we are constantly getting new members, lots of people joining every day, who know nothing about qualities to look for in a breeder and why breeding to standard is important, or even why you shouldn't breed your pet dog. I know when I joined Yorkietalk I read hundreds of threads before I ever posted on a thread, for most people there's no reason to post; they can get lots information by reading. If you believe you are beating a dead horse, than of course you shouldn't post, but I certainly don't think I'm beating a dead horse. All I can say, is that I'm so thankful, there were a few people here before I joined, and who weren't afraid of beating that proverbial dead horse.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Concerning beating a dead horse, we are constantly getting new members, lots of people joining every day, who know nothing about qualities to look for in a breeder and why breeding to standard is important, or even why you shouldn't breed your pet dog. I know when I joined Yorkietalk I read hundreds of threads before I ever posted on a thread, for most people there's no reason to post; they can get lots information by reading. If you believe you are beating a dead horse, than of course you shouldn't post, but I certainly don't think I'm beating a dead horse. All I can say, is that I'm so thankful, there were a few people here before I joined, and who weren't afraid of beating that proverbial dead horse.

You're right about the new member thing. My point is that we should all be trying to promote good breeding practices, whether traditional, parti, or Biewer. Some will never see eye to eye on the whole parti/Biewer issue, but we can all agree on sound breeding practices, whatever our interests. There's no purpose served by re-hashing old squabbles and most of these threads get bogged down in just that.

[puppylove11]

Donna I can tell by your post how important the quality of your dogs are and I do have a high respect for you.

Nancy I am happy your purchase from a YTCA member was great! On the other hand mine was not. There are good and bad in every avenue of life including the YTCA.

The most important responsibility a breeder has is the care of their dogs and secondly is the health of their puppies, color and everything else comes in after those issues.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

You're right about the new member thing. My point is that we should all be trying to promote good breeding practices, whether traditional, parti, or Biewer. Some will never see eye to eye on the whole parti/Biewer issue, but we can all agree on sound breeding practices, whatever our interests. There's no purpose served by re-hashing old squabbles and most of these threads get bogged down in just that.

I really do try to that, I'm a little disappointed that you haven't recognized that fact. A very small percentage of my posts involve parti threads.

[evab]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Hi and welcome to Yorkietalk, from what I understand all the Parti's can be traced back to one line. Even the Biewer, developed in Germany, has been said to be linked to this line. I guess Mr. Biewer may have been a Parti breeder, but he seemed to take it very seriously, and wasn't just breeding pets, he had a vision and he developed a standard. After his death, the breed almost died out, but American interest brought it back to life. There are many breeders breeding the Biewer in America, and different clubs with different agendas, some believe that there is no difference between the Biewer and the Parti, and even mate the two together. Others believe that there are huge differences, and it's best to keep the lines pure. I believe that there are huge differences in the breeders and their motivations for breeding. So perhaps you know the parti as a Biewer?

Hi Nancy, thanks for the kind welcome...yes I understand about the Biewer and the Uk breeding lines. I have been looking into Biewer History for some months now, but didn't find anything mentioned about the parti until I went on another forum, it's been quite an experience in the last few weeks...firstly learning about how forums work.....as I'm blonde! and the fact that I had never been on US forums before....but I'm here now....I have found the comments to be very interesting and obviously mixed opinions....

[evab]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

OH PLEASEEEE, evab, you have posted all over another site and you even posted your website which has stolen photos on it. Some of them are mine.
PARTI COLOURED YORKIE TERRIER her website

Oh hello, Deb I see you have your usual vigour.... I have only been on one other site, and joined some 2 weeks ago....as you are more then aware the site you have mentioned here is not mine..I live in the UK why would I have a parti colured yorkie terrier site, when we don't have them in UK...If you have problems with this site take it up with them. But I have been on your site recently and thank you for removing the incorrect info you had on your about Nikko's Rolls Royce Ashley as being a winner of Best in Breed at CRUFTS. I hope you did not mind my telling you this...but feel it only fair that where ever possible the correct info should be given. As the UK Kennel Club do not recognise the parti colour in the UK and as we do not have that colour dog anywhere in the UK, I thought it quite strange when I read your History. but once the UK KC confirmed they had never heard of the Nikko's breeding line ever in the UK, I just had to let you know.

[evab]

Originally Posted by evab

Hi Nancy, thanks for the kind welcome...yes I understand about the Biewer and the Uk breeding lines. I have been looking into Biewer History for some months now, but didn't find anything mentioned about the parti until I went on another forum, it's been quite an experience in the last few weeks...firstly learning about how forums work.....as I'm blonde! and the fact that I had never been on US forums before....but I'm here now....I have found the comments to be very interesting and obviously mixed opinions....

I am unable to reply to a posting by Lowoodfarm, as I have already gone to the administrator..how can this be I have only been on this forum for one message????

so post my reply here.: I do not have a web site: Parti Yorkie Terrier, we do not have them in the UK. so if you have a prob Deb take it up with them.... I merely informed you on that site that you had put incorrect info on your web sire about Nikko's Rolls Royce Ashley ever winning crufts, which I now see you have changed.

[gemy]

I have read this thread with interest. As just a fancier of Yorkies and not a breeder I have a few comments.

First there is a lot of passion on this thread which I feel is very very good. Passion is indicative of strongly held beliefs, and for many posts, that was articulated in a reasoned and critical way.

I would hope that the ethical breeders of Standard Yorkies, work very closely to promote a harmonious relationship with the ethical breeders of Parti=Yorkies. You would want to promote the testing of parti's for all the tests that the ethical breeders of standard yorkies do. Why? quite simply it may lead the way into more understanding of the health problems of standard Yorkies. What if all BATS results were collected and delineated between Yorkie standard color and Parti color. And there was a statistically relevant deviation between the two? What if LP was again statistically less in Standard vs Parti?
the fact remains there seems to be dedicated and passionate folks breeding Parti's they are here to stay! So maybe one day the standard will be changed .... After all in many breeds of dogs there are different colours they compete under.

To me while I love the standard color of Yorkies ( I do own a standard Yorkie) if Partis show all the same characteristics of Yorky standards with no greater health concerns, then one day maybe the US Club will need to acknowledge and recognize this.

IMHO change will always happen and should... Colour is Just colour unless colour also is indicative of other health concerns... ie some breeds white = higher propensity to deafness. In fact on the subject of light blue .. the YCTA's illustrated standard mentions that light blue is important in the breed... and the breeders know why... Unfortunately the authors decided not to publish why this is important, this deliberate omission is I very interesting.

[Breny]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

My point is that we should all be trying to promote good breeding practices, whether traditional, parti, or Biewer. Some will never see eye to eye on the whole parti/Biewer issue, but we can all agree on sound breeding practices, whatever our interests. There's no purpose served by re-hashing old squabbles and most of these threads get bogged down in just that.

Great post Jim Well said.

[Dixies Mom]

I have read many posts about the Biewer and the Parti. My question to you all is... Do you think the Yorkshire Terrier is the only breed that has had a mutating color gene?
13 years ago I met a wonderful breeder that I purchased my first German Shepherd from. Approximately 10 years ago, she breed her tradional male with a black female and produce the first tri-color German Shepherd now known as the Panda Shepherd. When this happened my friend was judged ridiculed and treated very badly for her breeding practices. She held her ground and began working with a genetist and was able to prove her dogs were pure and the gene was isolated and was found to have came from her tradional male. She has been a guardian of her colorful Shepherds and has every litter DNA to see which pup carries the gene and is very selective as to the placement. I have since purchased another boy from her, his mother is a Panda Shepherd and his father is a tradional. My boy is a tradional and does not carry the Panda gene.
I am not as of yet, an expert when it comes to the Biewer Terrier however, I know that through DNA studies Mr. Biewer was enhancing his "color lines" with other breeds. I can only speculate why because he is not here to tell us but I believe he was trying to produce color and specific looks using the Yorkies as the foundation.
I believe as far as the Parti Yorkie as with the Panda Shepherd, the dog will either carry the gene or it won't. To the OP... the only way you will know is to contact a genesist. If you breed a parti into your lines you may or may not have a baby who will carry the gene.

[yorkiegirl2]

Originally Posted by evab

I am unable to reply to a posting by Lowoodfarm, as I have already gone to the administrator..how can this be I have only been on this forum for one message????

so post my reply here.: I do not have a web site: Parti Yorkie Terrier, we do not have them in the UK. so if you have a prob Deb take it up with them.... I merely informed you on that site that you had put incorrect info on your web sire about Nikko's Rolls Royce Ashley ever winning crufts, which I now see you have changed.

If we make a mistake with infomation we will correct it.
You could have contacted us about the error.
But instead you choose to berate and steal pictures that do not belong to you and used them without permission.
I hope you have corrected this and removed the pictures.
This board frowns on people who conducts themselves in this manner.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2

If we make a mistake with infomation we will correct it.
You could have contacted us about the error.
But instead you choose to berate and steal pictures that do not belong to you and used them without permission.
I hope you have corrected this and removed the pictures.
This board frowns on people who conducts themselves in this manner.

I think she's trying to say that the website Breezeaway linked is not her website.

She says,

I do not have a web site: Parti Yorkie Terrier, we do not have them in the UK. so if you have a prob Deb take it up with them.... I merely informed you on that site that you had put incorrect info on your web sire about Nikko's Rolls Royce Ashley ever winning crufts, which I now see you have changed.

[Breezeaway]

It is her site, she is saying she is merely informing us on that site , that its not a website its to inform.

[AMD]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

Thanks Donna
[snip]

I know that there are people within this thread that do not breed the standard 100% of the time...I will not name names...I like and respect these people. But can we please agree that one picking and choosing what rules they will follow are no better/worse than those of that breed the parti....no matter how you justify it! Do not preach at us for not following the standard if you are not willing to follow your own words, each and every breeding. I do not care why you say that you do it....I am tired of reading that they are doing it to enhance the color (or whatever reason is being used). You are still breeding an off-color yourself. Heck, I could say..."I am breeding my Livi to pass on her dead-on perfect topline". I am still breeding an off-color, right?? So why do you, the ones that are saying that we are wrong, get to state your reasons for breeding the colors that you want, but we are the ones that are attacked??[snip]

Tammy first of all...I respect you as a person, and your beliefs.
The biggest issue, as I see it, is GOALS. There is a difference between breeding a parti and "off-blue" coloring to produce a correctly blue colored dog. To begin, nobody can breed a perfect dog because it doesn't exist; whether you're breeding standard color or a Parti, there's always faults. But those who are trying to ACHIEVE the correct "blue and tan" color may breed a dog "not to standard" but it's their GOAL to produce the perfect color that is the issue. As a parti breeder I can see how that seems comfusing or like a double standard, but it's more than the single dog's phenotype (appearence) that determines the color of offspring. They say it's wrong for you to breed a Parti, and you say their coloring is not "perfect" either...but your *goals* are on opposite ends of the stick. Now if a light blue dog is bred without intention to correct it to dark steel blue, then yes, they're both not the "standard correct" color. (Does that make sense?) Also what is "dark steel blue" to one, may be too light to another. I'm not saying it's always right to breed a too dark or too light coat, but it's a big picture, and more than phenotype. You always have to look at the genetics and decide if your 'not to standard' colored dog matched with the sire/dam will PRODUCE the correct "blue and tan" that the standard calls for. Whereas partis are bred to PRODUCE that white tri-color, which is a fault according to standard. Hope that makes sense.
So in your case, you could breed two traditional colord dogs and still produce a tri-colored offspring. Both parents would have the recessive gene required, but they're not parti colored. You might be blamed for not breeding "correct parti color", but you're breeding two traditionals to PRODUCE parti colored offspring, which is your goal.
I think we must always remember that NO dog is perfect, and we always have to live with some faults and decide which ones are not acceptable. There will always be disreputable breeders breeding wrong size, wrong health, wrong heads, wrong color, wrong *whatever*, but we all should be seeking and encouraging ethical breeding practices in EVERY breeding program, with the end purpose of BETTERING THE BREED. Friends can agree to disagree and remain friends.



Gosh, that was a lot longer than I meant, sorry.