Is there a problem I am not aware of?

[Bianca]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

wow. personally, i don't like it when people breed dogs when they dont have any experience and probably should not be breeding dogs. i generally just feel really bad for their dogs.

but i always try to help if i can, just because i know that i would be helping the dog if i tried to offer help. i might be angry with the person for breeding thier dogs when they should not be, but still, i feel that the dog needs someone who knows better to help them. and the only way to do that is by communicating with their owners.

my belief is "why should the dog suffer because their owner did something wrong?"

gosh, i even help people who do not like me! i just figure, people need help, why do they have to like me to get help from me? why should that matter? maybe they are right! maybe i am not that likable. who the heck knows!

who cares if you think someone is an idiot? (i am not calling anyone an idiot! i just mean in general) you are helping their dog, not them. ok fine, maybe by helping their dogs, you 'accidentally' helped them, but still, its worth it for the dogs.

i love dogs! i don't love back yard breeders as much as i love dogs, but still, they will always exist no matter what, and they doggies depend on us to help them.

there are many bad things that will always exist/happen. you can't turn your head away from it. they won't just disappear, but if you are up for making this world a better place, one little step at a time, it's possible.

sorry, people are probably thinking "what is this crazy girl talking about!? world peace?" i don't know, i am just rambling, this was a long thread to read and i read all the posts, and this was just a summary of how i felt after reading all the posts.

feel free to attack or ignore me. it's great for people to have an opinion. so long as they can back it up.

i know that i would be mad too if i offered to help and someone criticized me, but you know what, you can always tell them to shove it! as long as you did it properly, it is allowed on yt. (if you need advice on how to do that, pm me! JUST KIDDING! dont pm me, practice makes perfect! )

I agree, I don't think people have the right to just breed for the he$$ of it. I feel bad not to help , but honestly I don't know the first thing about breeding.
I am sorry but I feel people should not feel bad or obligated to post to a thread.

[MntSnowBabies]

This thread has been extremely entertaining to say the least. I have learned a lot on this site thanks to some great people who post on here. I can't say that I am a newbie to breeding or yet an expert (grew up on a farm next to the highway with horses, cows, pigs, cats, and lots of stray pregnant dogs). I have done so much research to find out all I can about yorkies that I am driving my husband nuts with the stacks of books, the internet pages printed out, and my constant forum talks. With all my research I have been careful on picking my breeding pair (my male has champion bloodlines, and my female doesn't), but I have found that after reading "Breeding for Dummies" and the talks on here I am more educated than many that just go out and do it on a whim. I know many of breeding tests and health tests that need done, as well as getting my pair DNA tested. I have gathered all of my whelping supplies and have them stored away (my dam has just started her first heat) for when my dams next heat and possible pregnancy come about. I always have my vets on standby for any reason. By vets I mean I have my Aunt who is a vet at Alameda East Vet Hospital in Denver, my sister-in-law (vet-tech) and her vet, as well as my two emergency vets (one here in town 2 minutes away, and one an hour away).

I know that many breeders on here are tired of answering the same questions, but you guys give great advise, not matter how the person may take it. I just caught my dam's heat and was scared I had caught it late enough that she could be pregnant (its still a possiblity) since I had gone on vacation for 4 days and left my pair with my hubby. Yet this might have been on the threads before I got great advise from Woogie Man and BJH, and am thankful that they were willing to answer this question even after I called my vets. Their advise was that pregnancy could still be possible so keep an eye on my dam, to keep them seperated, and if they are together (for play and potty breaks) to keep a watchful eye on them both, and use diapers and belly bands for extra protection.

Thank you to those who are on here that are willing to help even the more educated ones of us that can have unentended slips. And I understand when someones breeding standards don't go hand in hand with those of others that they are less willing to help, but do know that when you do make suggestions to anyone that it is a help to that person to learn. Thanks again for the great thread, and I was wondering what many breeders on here are looking for in their breeding lines as that was one of the main topics in this thread?

[SET Yorkies]

I’ve really thought hard about whether or not I wanted to jump into the middle of this thread. I rarely become angry, but maybe it is just my situation today….I picked up a puppy yesterday from my vet being discarded by its “breeder” (someone who just had a pair of dogs) due to its overwhelming health issues most of which are genetic in nature.

Breeders on this forum are in a bit of a catch 22 as are the Posters. I think I’m going to fuss at everyone. We are all to blame.

I often read through threads that are full of redundant badgering by breeders who reiterate all of the negatives without offering the needed constructive criticism mixed with well appointed advice. I think I would really be afraid to ask novice question in fear of the backlash. So many breeders on this forum have a wealth of knowledge beyond most veterinarians and other individuals that these posters can turn to. If the dog is bred, we have a responsibility to the breed as a whole to give good sound advice. For those we gently assist will be much more likely to listen to us when we give the advice that certainly should follow any unexpected or intended pregnancy. A person who posts on this forum with an “oops” has a dog now in his/her care that deserves our attention. We are here for the dogs, not necessarily the owners. But, by giving the needed guidance, we can certainly assist making a bad situation better. As Breeders, sometimes we hold ourselves in too high of regard and come off bitter and just plain hateful. I really think we need to work on that. It makes the forum a place for Nastiness of all kinds and that is all too sad. We are better people than that and we can certainly extend the love we have for our dogs to the dogs of others regardless of the situation. We should collectively feel ashamed of a great deal of the reactions to some of the posts on this board; while working hard to think before we speak and avoid nasty comments at all costs.

Novices, you don’t get off easy however….To that point, I also understand the frustration those same breeders share due to the shear disregard by those who enter this forum with the same scenario of “my dog’s bred, now what?” There is NO excuse for carelessness in this age as research is at your fingertips. We are all well aware when a female comes into heat and to that end, that is exactly why “pet” owners should have their dogs altered. Overall, it promotes much better health in the dog and in the long run keeps situations like these at bay. I’ve had way too many calls over the years insisting they have no idea how their female was bred, overlooking the fact that two intact dogs are living in the same household. That is the first sign of irresponsibility. Those who do realize that dogs without the proper genetic testing have bred seem to be more concerned with going about the excitement of having puppies without ever considering the absolute strain now placed on their beloved family pet. Leave brain surgery to the surgeons and whelping to those properly trained. Not once have I seen the following advice taken: Within a 72 period of an unwanted tie, dogs can be taken to a vet for a vaginal smear to determine if pregnancy could be a possibility. Once complete, a vet can administer a “morning after pill” so to speak. After the 22nd day of pregnancy, a simple test for relaxin can be done and the necessary action taken by a vet. Termination of canine pregnancy in no way poses any greater threat than those associated with normal whelp or C section (which are all too frequent anyway thanks to the breeding of 3lb females). Some shutter to even consider this option, but never take into account the responsibly of the overall health of the female, nor the real chance for loss of not only the entire litter and the dam.

We very often like to place the blame for genetic faults like Liver Shunts at the feet of unscrupulous breeders and puppy mills. However, many who offer excuses like “oops,”…. “just wanted to see her have puppies once,”…. “really wanted to have at least one of her offspring,”…”my kids need to experience this”…. and others who make similar comments are absolutely as much to blame as the mills. The offspring are then discarded to anyone with a little cash with no spay / neuter contingencies and really no consideration for the puppy’s wellbeing into the already overwhelming pet population to continue spreading genetic faults which will eventually change the breed as we know it.


Guys, I’ve said this a thousand times, as an owner of any animal, you and you alone are completely responsible. Our pets, show stock, breeding stock, etc.. rely completely on our ability to make appropriate decisions for them. They are at our mercy. Those who simply refuse to or cannot take that responsibility to heart do not need intact dogs…. Period… We simply do not have “oops” here and for good reason. Intact males and females are absolutely never housed together. Cycles are carefully documented to determine when the time is close. All dogs are sold on spay / neuter contracts and many are altered prior to placement. These are easy considerations….. All too often I encounter those who truly have no real understanding of the intimate relationship and bond of reliability pets have with their owner. They absolutely need you to have their best care at the forefront of your thoughts.

I’m not pointing fingers…. Well, yes I guess I am. I am pointing them at all of us, myself included. We need to be a cohesive community providing good sound direction while gently fighting the ever mounting battle waged against our Yorkies. Without good breeders sounding off, the battle is lost for them.

I also wanted to touch an a subject brought up by Barbara, You are exactly right when you say that the newbies today are the possible show breeders of tomorrow. We all certainly started somewhere. However, there is a difference between one who begins researching when the deed is already done and one who plans and prepares. I am going to post again our humble beginnings as a reminder of our wonderful and agonizing this work can be. I am holding in my lap today the daughter of one the puppies from the litter described below. By some stroke of odd luck has made her way back to me.

“Every breeder on this board started somewhere…. I had an excellent mentor….. She was passing the torch of 25 years of knowledge and experience to me (how lucky was I?)…. My second litter was due being whelped by my most beautiful dog (not to mention that I was also attached to her as much as I was my children)…. Talk about a textbook pregnancy…. 42nd day ultrasound showed 6 very well proportioned, small puppies…. Delivery started…..no distress….easy labor on the first puppy… then nothing….and nothing… I was prepared…. I had read all of the books…. Not to fear, middle of the day, no emergency call…. We headed to the vet just to be sure (12 miles)….she died in my hands as I walked through the office door…. I called my mentor in horror and unbelievable grief….she said, “you’ll know in a few weeks if this is for you.” …. She said that because I had 6 very tiny puppies (5 saved through c/s) that needed to be nursed every two hours for weeks….I buried my Gizmo where our new kennel stands today and got started with her babies…..I would hardly close my eyes b/f it was time to feed again….two weeks into it, one just didn’t thrive….now I was at wit’s end….three days later one aspirated on the feeding tube….I was done, called my mentor and told her to come get them all… she said, “no, this was your choice”…. 20 or so weeks later of round the clock care, One by one, these tiny replicas of their mom, of whom I had become a surrogate mother, were picked up by new owners, placed under various Christmas trees….and absolutely delighted special families…. To this day, I still grieve for my Gizmo, to this day I still check up on every puppy I sell… I’ve shoveled truck loads of poop, dried gallons of pee, built kennels, torn down kennels, delivered puppies at 2:00 am on every holiday celebrated by man (even my kids birthday parties which I had to miss)….Breeding is a complete sacrifice of everything else when the moment counts b/c your female is counting on you for everything….If you bring puppies into this world they are your responsibility and yours alone. My mentor made that quite clear to me. If you do not have the ability to deal with the difficulties with the same passion as you delight in the rewards, keep you little girls as a pets….. If you do have the ability, this could be the blooming of a wonderful new career…one that I love more with every pooper scooper full….”

[wildcard]

I do not answer yorkie-specific questions because I am new to the breed. I do however answer general questions that would apply to toy breeds generally, as I have shown and bred Papillons for several years. I agree that reading, watching videos is extremely helping, and a great thing to do to prepare you for breeding dogs. But in my opinion and in my little ideal fantasy world, that is not enough. If someone is interested in breeding to the standard and producing healthy, well tempered dogs that are truly a credit to the breed, I think that the "showing" componant needs to be there. The purpose of dog shows is to evaluate breeding stock. That is what they are there for. That is why we have breed standards. I don't agree that purchasing 2 good quality yorkies who have not been shown and then hoping to breed show potential from them is very realistic.

For those who truly are interested in producing high quality dogs, this is the path I would personally recommend:

1) Attend dog shows. Yes, you might have to travel many hours to get to them. Watch the dogs. You will see who is finishing their dogs quickly and you will start to see the similarities and differences between the dogs.

2) Talk to breeders whose dogs you like. Explain that you are interested in obtaining a show quality puppy, that you are inexperienced, that you are willing to wait a long time for the right puppy to start with, and that you want to learn from them. Offer to meet the breeder at shows and shadow him/her - I did this for well over a year! This way, they will understand your dedication, and you will see if this is something you really want to get involved in.

3) If you already have a dog that is not show quality, another way to up your credentials with a breeder is to train and show your own dog in obedience, rally or agility. Again, shows dedication to your dog, and that you are ready and willing to be a dog show competitor.

4) Be patient. Toy breeds have small litters, and breeders tend to keep their best. You will probably have to be on a wait list for a while. That is fine, because you are learning the dog show ropes-- learning to groom, watching how to handle, etc while you are being a dog show "groupie."

5) Be very willing to purchase, show and finish a male puppy. It is easier to find a spectacular male puppy than a finishable bitch for sale.

6) Do whatever you have to do to finish that first dog. Follow the advice of your breeder. Be ready to hire a handler if necessary.

Once you have done these things, not only will you have gained a lot of knowledge about the breed, but most likely you will have gained a terrific friend and mentor. You will start to learn what qualities you like/dislike in certain breedings or lines. If at the same time you have been studying your genetics you will be far better prepared to even consider breeding. Shoot, you may have decided by then that breeding dogs is not something you want to do. You would probably have had the opportunity to watch your breeder whelp a litter. It is only then that I would think about trying to acquire a good bitch to finish and later think about breeding. Until you have experience in evaluating dogs versus the standard, you aren't really ready to know what you qualities you want in what will be your foundation bitch. Another possibility, and this is what I did actually, is to lease a bitch from your breeder/mentor. It is a way to get a breeding from a superior quality bitch that your breeder is not interested in selling. Of course to do this there has to be a huge level of trust there, but that is something that should have been growing this whole time, over the course of years most likely.

Again, these are my opinions, and some ideas to share. It is a long journey, but it is an enjoyable, educational one.

[BamaFan121s]

Wow, has this thread ever gotten detailed! (Not that it's a bad thing.) I had to go back and read the fist post because I didn't even remember what the original question was.

Reasons and opinions aside, based on what I've seen Many long time breeders don't post because they were tired of being attacked everytime they answered a question and grew tired of being reprimanded for not wording it correctly/nicely.

I've seen one breeder come forward in this thread and offer an explanation...HER honest explanation...for why she doesn't post only to have it picked apart and told that she's wrong for feeling that way in great detail. I'm pretty sure she knows her own mind.

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone who has posted so far has been honest, offered their feelings and has been very respectful. However, it's also taken on a bit of a "preachy" tone: stating what a breeder's responsibilities should be to the breed and how by not answering, they are neglecting their responsibilities, being accused of coming off as all-knowing and hateful in their posts, told that they don't word things and offer the advice they should when they DO respond. This thread is an example in itself of why many steer clear of this section.

Seriously!? Is it really any shock?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Wow, has this thread ever gotten detailed! (Not that it's a bad thing.) I had to go back and read the fist post because I didn't even remember what the original question was.

Reasons and opinions aside, based on what I've seen Many long time breeders don't post because they were tired of being attacked everytime they answered a question and grew tired of being reprimanded for not wording it correctly/nicely.

I've seen one breeder come forward in this thread and offer an explanation...HER honest explanation...for why she doesn't post only to have it picked apart and told that she's wrong for feeling that way in great detail. I'm pretty sure she knows her own mind.

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone who has posted so far has been honest, offered their feelings and has been very respectful. However, it's also taken on a bit of a "preachy" tone: stating what a breeder's responsibilities should be to the breed and how by not answering, they are neglecting their responsibilities, being accused of coming off as all-knowing and hateful in their posts, told that they don't word things and offer the advice they should when they DO respond. This thread is an example in itself of why many steer clear of this section.

Seriously!? Is it really any shock?

My thoughts exactly.

[SET Yorkies]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Wow, has this thread ever gotten detailed! (Not that it's a bad thing.) I had to go back and read the fist post because I didn't even remember what the original question was.

Reasons and opinions aside, based on what I've seen Many long time breeders don't post because they were tired of being attacked everytime they answered a question and grew tired of being reprimanded for not wording it correctly/nicely.

I've seen one breeder come forward in this thread and offer an explanation...HER honest explanation...for why she doesn't post only to have it picked apart and told that she's wrong for feeling that way in great detail. I'm pretty sure she knows her own mind.

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone who has posted so far has been honest, offered their feelings and has been very respectful. However, it's also taken on a bit of a "preachy" tone: stating what a breeder's responsibilities should be to the breed and how by not answering, they are neglecting their responsibilities, being accused of coming off as all-knowing and hateful in their posts, told that they don't word things and offer the advice they should when they DO respond. This thread is an example in itself of why many steer clear of this section.

Seriously!? Is it really any shock?

I'm probably guilty of being the "preachy" one.... I'm just in an overall pissy mood today and yesterday was terrible.... I pick the little guy up b/c they wanted him euthanized (his issues are treatable but not cureable....) sorry I guess my heart's just on my sleve...

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SET Yorkies

I'm probably guilty of being the "preachy" one.... I'm just in an overall pissy mood today and yesterday was terrible.... I pick the little guy up b/c they wanted him euthanized (his issues are treatable but not cureable....) sorry I guess my heart's just on my sleve...

Nope, not you at all. Not really one person in particular, just kind of the overall 'vibe' and lots of comments.

I am sorry to hear about your ordeal yesterday though.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by SET Yorkies

I'm probably guilty of being the "preachy" one.... I'm just in an overall pissy mood today and yesterday was terrible.... I pick the little guy up b/c they wanted him euthanized (his issues are treatable but not cureable....) sorry I guess my heart's just on my sleve...

Personally, I think this thread has been informative. I appreciate the input from you, wildcard and the others. I do not see a 'preachy' tone, I see dedicated breeders pouring their hearts out and sharing opinions and sincere advise. I think if we had more threads like this maybe it could open more eyes about how we all need to try harder for the betterment of the breeder.

[SET Yorkies]

Hopefully we'll be able to maintain him and give him a good quailty of life... As soon as we were home, I fixed him up a dish of warm canned food, I think he was in heaven.... So, he's fitting in well.... My girls tend to sense need very well and have been loving all over him!