Parti confussion?????

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I've been reading back through the thread and some things just don't add up for me. It appears as though a couple of parti breeders have their own club and are actually writing a standard for the partis. It seems that, when breeding partis of any breed, awareness of the piebald gene risks is critical. From the time line of the posts, it looks like the breeders that are trying to set standards for the parti Yorkie were unaware of these risks. I would think that anyone that is putting themselves in such a position would be keenly aware of all risks and wouldn't attempt to write a standard before having all possible information. Here...I'll try to illustrate my point. On 1-31, when asked about how many members are in the club and how many dogs were produced, JeanieK responded in post 278...."Our club is very new, and there aren't as many serious parti yorkie breeders out there yet. most of us have just recently aquired our partis and hfave yet to even have our first parti pups".My opinion is this isn't much to go on if you're writing the standard. After more information was posted concerning the risks of breeding piebalds, JeanieK responded, on 2-1 in post 302...."Thank you ladies for all the great information, it is definitely something we will be watching for.

That is true, only time will tell. The Biewers Yorkies have been around for a long time and I have not heard of any deafness in their dogs. But that does not mean it won't happen in the partis, so now that we are aware of it we can watch for it.

I have spoken to may breeders including my own, that prefer to breed carriers to partis, and this might be why.

Sue I think we need to adjust the standard to discourae the breeding of Dogs with all white heads. I like the color on both ears anyway". Does this sound like someone who was previously aware of the piebald risks? Well, at least she's mentioning adjusting the standard. Question is, why wasn't this looked into earlier? The only research that seems to have been done is asking the few other parti breeders and concluding it's not a problem. The factual posts that have been made have been dismissed because a few breeders with no more than a few generations say otherwise. I'm not really sure that those breeders were even asked since, referring to post 302, it all seems to be new information. Again, this by those writing the standard? Finally, today, when asked about testing that had been done to make sure there was no uni-lateral deafness, JeanieK responded in post 386...."I appreciate your concern, and all the informational post. However I am very computer literate and have one my own research of the subject. Upon interviewing parti yorkie breeders I have found no incidene of deafness, so therefore see no reason to be concerned at this time

I will have my dogs tested as I see fit
, and I will assume all risks and responsibilty for any deaf dogs that I might produce". While it may be fine to assume your own risks, shouldn't those writing the standard be concerned about the risks to other parti breeders? And, again, how much research was really done on the subject (see post 302). All I can say is thank God for responsible breed clubs.

Excellent post!! If I were starting a "new" breed club, I would make damn sure the health of the breed was the #1 priority, or at least include it in the "health issues" of the breed. I think that the entire "package" needs to looked at, not just the production of color. The lack of concern/denial and un-willingness to test for unilateral deafness speaks volumns about The Colorful Yorkshire Terrier Club and its breeding programs and ethics. JMO

Oh yes, I know, the partis are here to stay so I better get used to it.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Excellent post!! If I were starting a "new" breed club, I would make damn sure the health of the breed was the #1 priority, or at least include it in the "health issues" of the breed. I think that the entire "package" needs to looked at, not just the production of color. The lack of concern/denial and un-willingness to test for unilateral deafness speaks volumns about The Colorful Yorkshire Terrier Club and its breeding programs and ethics. JMO

Oh yes, I know, the partis are here to stay so I better get used to it.

Many parti breeders are aware of deafness in parti colored breeds. There are numerous parti and solid white colored breeds that have little to no problems with deafness within the parti and extreme white colored dogs. The standard colored yorkie, is also listed as having inherited deafness problems, does every breeder BEAR test their traditional yorkies - I don't think so. At this time, since we've seen no deafness problems with the parti's, I don't feel that BEAR testing is necessary unless a breeder wishes to do so.

Yorkishire Terrier club isn't a "NEW BREED" club and it's not a club that will dictate rules and laws. It's a club that was started 3 months ago by two people who wanted to provide a "friendly" place for colorful breeders to come together and network, share ideas, story's and experiences. There is still much to do on the site and we are always looking for recommendations on how to improve it or what new educational information to add. We will run information on deafness and the piebald gene for those who may not be aware, so they can be on the alert and we will post links to piebald deafness genetic sites under the links for Alopecia.

As for standards, it's the same standard as the traditional yorkie but with the exception of coloring.

We can play the "What If" game and worry and dwell that something may happen, that actually won't happen. At this point, 10 years later, 5+ generations of parti's later, we are not seeing problems ... though we are on the lookout for any potential problems associated with color.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Honestly you really don't make any sense with posting of how parti people should breed or handle their club, have their dogs tested etc etc. Who appointed you dog God over all the parti colored dogs?
If you look at the AKC list of dogs on the AKC site 21 of the first 35 dogs and that is just the A and B list can be tricolored or parti. So these people should not breed these dogs because of chance of deafness? If you go down that list of AKC dogs the tri colors out number the solids by alot.
These dogs can be spotted....
Akita
American Foxhound,
American Staffordshire Terrier
American Eskimo Dog
Anatolian Shepherd Dog,
Australian Cattle Dog
Australian Shepherd, Australian Terrier
Basenji Bernese Mountain Dog
Bichon Frise Borzoi
Boston Terrier Border Collie
Basset Hound Brittany
Beagle Bulldog
Bearded Collie
Beauceron
Bedlington Terrier

These can not:...Affenpinscher
Afghan Hound
American Water Spaniel
Anatolian Shepherd Dog
Belgian Malinois
Belgian Sheepdog
Belgian Tervuren
Bouvier des Flandres
Bloodhound
Border Terrier
Briard
Brussels Griffon
Bullmastiff

And thats just the A's and B's
Maybe you need to petition AKC about allowing all these spotted dogs to be bred.
Get over the spots geeeesh!

LOL

For a person with no interest or no bias and not wanting to bash the parti breeders, Woogie Man sure seems to be going out of the way to analize and pick apart what we say.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Yorkishire Terrier club isn't a "NEW BREED" club and it's not a club that will dictate rules and laws.

Sorry, I just reread my post at work and I meant to say "The Colorful Yorkshire Terrier club"

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I've been reading back through the thread and some things just don't add up for me. It appears as though a couple of parti breeders have their own club and are actually writing a standard for the partis. It seems that, when breeding partis of any breed, awareness of the piebald gene risks is critical. From the time line of the posts, it looks like the breeders that are trying to set standards for the parti Yorkie were unaware of these risks. I would think that anyone that is putting themselves in such a position would be keenly aware of all risks and wouldn't attempt to write a standard before having all possible information. Here...I'll try to illustrate my point. On 1-31, when asked about how many members are in the club and how many dogs were produced, JeanieK responded in post 278...."Our club is very new, and there aren't as many serious parti yorkie breeders out there yet. most of us have just recently aquired our partis and hfave yet to even have our first parti pups".My opinion is this isn't much to go on if you're writing the standard.


Altholugh we do not owe you any type of explanation what so ever, I will address your concerns to set the record straight for others that are interested in the parti yorkies.

Our club is in the gathering and sharing information stage. We have no intention of dictating standards. There are many breed clubs that do not have standards. In fact we are not even a breed club since the yorkies already have a breed club, the YTCA.

After more information was posted concerning the risks of breeding piebalds, JeanieK responded, on 2-1 in post 302...."Thank you ladies for all the great information, it is definitely something we will be watching for.

That is true, only time will tell. The Biewers Yorkies have been around for a long time and I have not heard of any deafness in their dogs. But that does not mean it won't happen in the partis, so now that we are aware of it we can watch for it.

I have spoken to may breeders including my own, that prefer to breed carriers to partis, and this might be why.

Sue I think we need to adjust the standard to discourae the breeding of Dogs with all white heads. I like the color on both ears anyway". Does this sound like someone who was previously aware of the piebald risks?
Well, at least she's mentioning adjusting the standard.

Since there have been no known occurances of deafness in the parti yorkies, there is no need to address the issue. We do not assume that all parti breeders are idiots they need to be monitored and treated like children. we are all intelligent adults that can manage our breeding programs with out the interference of others.

Question is, why wasn't this looked into earlier? The only research that seems to have been done is asking the few other parti breeders and concluding it's not a problem. The factual posts that have been made have been dismissed because a few breeders with no more than a few generations say otherwise. I'm not really sure that those breeders were even asked since, referring to post 302, it all seems to be new information. Again, this by those writing the standard?

I graduated college with honors. I am very capable of doing research, and comprehending what I read. I do not need others to research for me and translate it to me.

In my opinion if you want the facts go straight to the people who have the experience. Since all of the research has indicated, that it does not happen in all breeds and it does not happen in all lines of all breeds, and if it does happen you do not have to scrap your breeding, that you just don't repeat that particular breeding, then it seemed reasonable to me to go to the people who are breeding from the same line that my dog came from and ask them.


Finally, today, when asked about testing that had been done to make sure there was no uni-lateral deafness, JeanieK responded in post 386...."I appreciate your concern, and all the informational post. However I am very computer literate and have done my own research of the subject. Upon interviewing parti yorkie breeders I have found no incidene of deafness, so therefore see no reason to be concerned at this time

I will have my dogs tested as I see fit
, and I will assume all risks and responsibilty for any deaf dogs that I might produce".
While it may be fine to assume your own risks, shouldn't those writing the standard be concerned about the risks to other parti breeders?

I repeat, we did not and do not intend to write a standard at this time, if ever. We are collecting and sharing information so if prolems do show up we can all be made aware of it. Since prior to our club, there was no place where information could be shared, no one really know a lot about which matings produce what results.

And, again, how much research was really done on the subject (see post 302). All I can say is thank God for responsible breed clubs.

Thank you very much for all of your concerns, I hope that I have put some of them to rest.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Many parti breeders are aware of deafness in parti colored breeds. There are numerous parti and solid white colored breeds that have little to no problems with deafness within the parti and extreme white colored dogs. The standard colored yorkie, is also listed as having inherited deafness problems, does every breeder BEAR test their traditional yorkies - I don't think so. At this time, since we've seen no deafness problems with the parti's, I don't feel that BEAR testing is necessary unless a breeder wishes to do so.

Yorkishire Terrier club isn't a "NEW BREED" club and it's not a club that will dictate rules and laws. It's a club that was started 3 months ago by two people who wanted to provide a "friendly" place for colorful breeders to come together and network, share ideas, story's and experiences. There is still much to do on the site and we are always looking for recommendations on how to improve it or what new educational information to add. We will run information on deafness and the piebald gene for those who may not be aware, so they can be on the alert and we will post links to piebald deafness genetic sites under the links for Alopecia.

As for standards, it's the same standard as the traditional yorkie but with the exception of coloring.

We can play the "What If" game and worry and dwell that something may happen, that actually won't happen. At this point, 10 years later, 5+ generations of parti's later, we are not seeing problems ... though we are on the lookout for any potential problems associated with color.

Sue thank you for bring that up.

I too was going to mention that the yorkshire terrier is on the list of dogs that have heriditary deafness.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Excellent post!! If I were starting a "new" breed club, I would make damn sure the health of the breed was the #1 priority, or at least include it in the "health issues" of the breed. I think that the entire "package" needs to looked at, not just the production of color. The lack of concern/denial and un-willingness to test for unilateral deafness speaks volumns about The Colorful Yorkshire Terrier Club and its breeding programs and ethics. JMO

Oh yes, I know, the partis are here to stay so I better get used to it.

There has been no indication what so ever that deafness is any more of a problem in the parti colored yorkie, than it is in the traditional colored. If ever it becomes a problem, I will address the issue.

As far as testing my puppies, I have yet to have an parti puppies to test, and would see no reason to get them tested unless there was some indication of deafness.

[TammyJM]

Oh my gosh....this will be my last post in this thread because I now find it as more of an attack on the parti than informative like a couple claim it to be. My question to those breeders that have been so adamant about deafness and the parti Yorkie. It was said, in this thread, that a 'responsible' parti breeder would BAER test each and every puppy. It has not been good enough to tell you that there has been no association with the parti Yorkie and hearing problems and that we are comfortable with the research that we know from our line(s). This, for some reason, is not good enough.....you say we have to test our puppies. Then, I ask you, why do you not liver shunt test each and every one of your puppies that you produce? Will you now tell us that it's because you have researched your own lines??

Seriously, at this point, we all get it....you don't like the breeding of the parti color.

Tammy

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

Oh my gosh....this will be my last post in this thread because I now find it as more of an attack on the parti than informative like a couple claim it to be. My question to those breeders that have been so adamant about deafness and the parti Yorkie. It was said, in this thread, that a 'responsible' parti breeder would BAER test each and every puppy. It has not been good enough to tell you that there has been no association with the parti Yorkie and hearing problems and that we are comfortable with the research that we know from our line(s). This, for some reason, is not good enough.....you say we have to test our puppies. Then, I ask you, why do you not liver shunt test each and every one of your puppies that you produce? Will you now tell us that it's because you have researched your own lines??

Seriously, at this point, we all get it....you don't like the breeding of the parti color.


Tammy

Yes we get it. and according to yorkiekist, they get it that parti yorkies are here to stay. so we may as well all just agree to disagree.

[Nancy1999]

Some of you have misunderstood; I'm not against parties, I against irresponsible breeding. Some people breed teacups, or ultra tiny yorkies, I have nothing against these adorable puppies, I am against the purposeful breeding of ultra tinies, for many reasons, and just as the teacup breeder would poo poo my concerns, parti breeders do also.


Some of you have said that there are many differences among the parti breeders, and I imagine this to be true. My question to you parti breeders, what are the questions a person should ask the parti breeder to increase their chances of obtaining a healthy pup? I think that there is probably a lot in inbreeding in the parti line, which is different than line breeding, and inbreeding always increases the chances of any disease. What questions should a buyer ask?

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Some of you have misunderstood; I'm not against parties, I against irresponsible breeding. Some people breed teacups, or ultra tiny yorkies, I have nothing against these adorable puppies, I am against the purposeful breeding of ultra tinies, for many reasons, and just as the teacup breeder would poo poo my concerns, parti breeders do also.


Some of you have said that there are many differences among the parti breeders, and I imagine this to be true. My question to you parti breeders, what are the questions a person should ask the parti breeder to increase their chances of obtaining a healthy pup? I think that there is probably a lot in inbreeding in the parti line, which is different than line breeding, and inbreeding always increases the chances of any disease. What questions should a buyer ask?

I would ask the same questions that I would ask any breeder. If they do their research on the yorkie they will know what concerns there are with Yorkshire Terriers.

My dogs are not closely related, so no inbreeding here. Can you say there is no inbreeding with trasditional yorkie breeders?

There are good and bad breeders in every breed of dogs and in every color of yorkie. You have to ask questions until you are comfortable that the breeder is breeding healthy dogs and that they will stand behind their dogs if a genetic problem does arrise.

Why this constant interrogation of the parti breeders. We have been through the entire list of why partis should not be bred, and none of the reasons have been valid reasons to not breed this color of yorkie.

so what is the real reason for badgering a particular group of breeders whom you know nothing about for breeding a particular color of dog that has no known health issues that are related to their coloring.

People that are this obeseed with something, have very personal reasons for being that way.

so now that we have dispelled all the concerns over the health of these dogs. What are your real reasons for your obsessions?

we have heard,

"they don't look like yorkies"
Why do you care, if you don't like the looks, then don't buy them

"they YTCA has disqualifed them"
We don't care. Our purpose at this time is not for showing

"They have health issues"
Where (other than the YTCA website) is it said that they have health issues

"they might be deaf"
that has yet to be proven

"you're ruining the breed"
we don't see it that way, we believe the YTCA is wrong for not allowing what is as natural part of the yorkie makeup.

"The parti color is not a part of the yorkie make up"
The AKC says it is

"you need to have the Mars wisdom panel done to prove they are yorkies'
Why? all parties involved agree that they are yorkies so there is no need to prove it.

the list goes on.

What it all boils down to is that we should not do it because a few of you don't like it

Well for your own sakes, Let it go.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I would ask the same questions that I would ask any breeder. If they do their research on the yorkie they will know what concerns there are with Yorkshire Terriers.

My dogs are not closely related, so no inbreeding here. Can you say there is no inbreeding with trasditional yorkie breeders?

There are good and bad breeders in every breed of dogs and in every color of yorkie. You have to ask questions until you are comfortable that the breeder is breeding healthy dogs and that they will stand behind their dogs if a genetic problem does arrise.

Why this constant interrogation of the parti breeders. We have been through the entire list of why partis should not be bred, and none of the reasons have been valid reasons to not breed this color of yorkie.

so what is the real reason for badgering a particular group of breeders whom you know nothing about for breeding a particular color of dog that has no known health issues that are related to their coloring.

People that are this obeseed with something, have very personal reasons for being that way.

so now that we have dispelled all the concerns over the health of these dogs. What are your real reasons for your obsessions?

we have heard,

"they don't look like yorkies"
Why do you care, if you don't like the looks, then don't buy them

"they YTCA has disqualifed them"
We don't care. Our purpose at this time is not for showing

"They have health issues"
Where (other than the YTCA website) is it said that they have health issues

"they might be deaf"
that has yet to be proven

"you're ruining the breed"
we don't see it that way, we believe the YTCA is wrong for not allowing what is as natural part of the yorkie makeup.

"The parti color is not a part of the yorkie make up"
The AKC says it is

"you need to have the Mars wisdom panel done to prove they are yorkies'
Why? all parties involved agree that they are yorkies so there is no need to prove it.

the list goes on.

What it all boils down to is that we should not do it because a few of you don't like it

Well for your own sakes, Let it go.

I asked a fair question, and think I deserve a fair answer. I'm often asked for advice on questions a person should ask a breeder. I thought the parti breeders might have insight on the questions a person should ask a parti breeder. I hope some of you others choose to reply; this is a legitimate question.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I asked a fair question, and think I deserve a fair answer. I'm often asked for advice on questions a person should ask a breeder. I thought the parti breeders might have insight on the questions a person should ask a parti breeder. I hope some of you others choose to reply; this is a legitimate question.

Yes you did and I gave you a legitimate answer in my very first sentence.

I would ask the same questions that I would ask any other yorkie breeder.

Here are a few
What, if any genetice conditions are common with the yorkies?
How many breeding dogs do you own.
Are your dogs raised inside the home or in kennels.
Are they AKC registered
Are there any health conditions that are associated wsith the parti yorkies that are not common with the traditional yorkie
What, if any conditions have your dogs been tested for
Do you have a health guarantee
Are yorkies good with kids
Have they had their shots
Do you believe in deworming puppies that do not have worms
do you own both of the parents
Can I meet both of the parents

The list is long
is there anything particuilar that you are asking about. I'm sure I have probably missed a fews, that I will be bashed for.

Oh Ya how much do they cost? How big will they get?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Yes you did and I gave you a legitimate answer in my very first sentence.

I would ask the same questions that I would ask any other yorkie breeder.

Here are a few
What, if any genetice conditions are common with the yorkies?
How many breeding dogs do you own.
Are your dogs raised inside the home or in kennels.
Are they AKC registered
Are there any health conditions that are associated wsith the parti yorkies that are not common with the traditional yorkie
What, if any conditions have your dogs been tested for
Do you have a health guarantee
Are yorkies good with kids
Have they had their shots
Do you believe in deworming puppies that do not have worms
do you own both of the parents
Can I meet both of the parents

The list is long
is there anything particuilar that you are asking about. I'm sure I have probably missed a fews, that I will be bashed for.

Oh Ya how much do they cost? How big will they get?

This wasn't a trick question, and you have offered many excellent suggestions. I'm referring to specific questions one should ask a Parti breeder, you have said many times that there are some poor parti breeders, and I thought you could offer tips on how to select a responsible parti breeder. In this post you indicate you interviewed three parti breeders. What was the question you asked to inquire about the deafness? You say you found no incidence of deafness, what question did you ask? Do you mean to say you should only ask, "Are there any health conditions that are associated wsith (sic) the parti yorkies"

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I appreciate your concern, and all the informational post. However I am very computer literate and have one my own research of the subject. Upon interviewing parti yorkie breeders I have found no incidene of deafness, so therefore see no reason to be concerned at this time
Do you mean to say you should only ask, "What, if any genetice (sic) conditions are common with the yorkies?"
I will have my dogs tested as I see fit, and I will assume all risks and responsibilty for any deaf dogs that I might produce.

Thank you very much for all of the research that you have done on my behalf.

There are generic questions we should ask of every breeder, but there are certain questions, one should ask relating to that specific breed, and since a parti is not part of the standard, it would seem that there would be specific questions to ask the parti breeder. This would seem even more important if purchasing the dog as breeding stock.

Concerning the question, "Are there any health conditions that are associated wsith (sic) the parti yorkies"?

What is the answer a person should hear to help them decide?

[Tnyorkiemom]

ok.......this is JMO......but in reading the facts......and one of them being that there has not be any more evidence of deafness in partis than in standards.......i would say that is not a question to ask or to info to volunteer necessarily........the main question that i would think you would be appropriate in asking or informing some one about would be why they are who or what they are............because all in all from what i have seen with health issues of both the standard and the parti.......they both either have them or have risks of having them.............a question that i think would be appropriate to ask a parti breeder is what makes them not be to the YTCA standard........and if the breeder cant answer a simple question and yes if you are gonna breed them then it should be a simple question to ask...then you shouldnt be breeding them.......dont breed any breed of dog or cat or any animal as far as that goes if you dont know about that specific animal and it's breed.............we all love our animals and want the best in life for them.........just get yourself as informed as you can wether you are a pet owner or a breeder