Breeding for Improvement?

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

And did the results show that parti colored or any off color other than the blue born were any more suscepitable to any of the known health issues?

I posted the links to the studies to show that the accusation that the YTCA donations involved the same thing as breeding dogs and recording "results" was inaccurate. I doubt very highly that the studies that were supported by the YTCA foundation had anything to do with parti colored or off colored yorkies. I am very doubtful that the YTCA Foundation sits around thinking of ways to show that irregularly colored yorkies are unhealthy. The point is try to support research aimed at identifing the causes of medical disorders so that breeders can make educated decisions about the dogs they breed. It has nothing to do with proving that the standard the YTCA created is correct or not.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I am really sorry for this; I thought it was important for the average person to understand that improving the breed did not mean bringing in more variety. There is lots of misinformation printed, and sometimes he who posts most is believed.

No, you're right...it IS important. I'm just not sure why this thread--which had NOTHING to do with Partis--was hijacked and made into such to begin with. Then equally confused, as I always am, as to how and why it takes always takes on the same tone.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

This is funny and very sad, IMO.

Generally speaking, if you are truly want to promote understanding and acceptance, this is not the way to go about doing it.
There seems to be a pattern of people claiming one thing or another was "proven" and "researched" but when asked for more detailed info, the response given mirrors the one above.
Again, a very 'convenient.' What was the phrase used earlier..."painted into a corner?"

It has been stated in these threads by myself and by others, where the information came from, and she doesn't believe it anyway so why should I waste my time with it.

There is no concrete proof either way but there is more information pointing towards the theory than against it.

I just wonder why some people even care what I or anyone else breeds as long as there are no known health issues involved. Why should anyone care if someone wants to breed an Shnikerlabradoodleshnautsu. people want pets, some want unique and different pets. As long as they are healthy and treated properly why should anyone care?

And there are breeds, that I have previously pointed out, that by following the breed standard they are actually breeding dogs with major health issues. And eventually that might even be the case with the yorkies.

Never say never cause you just don't know what might evolve in the future.

We have been told, you can't breed those colors and call them yorkies because they are not purebred yorkies. And then turn right around and be told, you can't start your own breed club because they are yorkies and you can't start a new club on color alone.

well what is it? Either they are or they aren't. If they are then they should be accepted and if they aren't then it is none of YTCA's business.

Is this really about the dog, or the breed or is it a personal thing. I'm beginning to think it is more personal than anything.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

It has been stated in these threads by myself and by others, where the information came from, and she doesn't believe it anyway so why should I waste my time with it.

LOL...good question...why are you?

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I just wonder why some people even care what I or anyone else breeds as long as there are no known health issues involved.

You hit the nail on the head...I think that many are concerned about the what isn't "known."

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Why should anyone care if someone wants to breed an Shnikerlabradoodleshnautsu. people want pets, some want unique and different pets. As long as they are healthy and treated properly why should anyone care?

Because they hate to see unformed people taken advantage of?

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Never say never cause you just don't know what might evolve in the future.

So true!

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Is this really about the dog, or the breed or is it a personal thing. I'm beginning to think it is more personal than anything.

The million dollar question! I think alot of it is quite "personal."

[BamaFan121s]

Generally speaking, regardless to how one feels about the ethics and stance of the YTCA regarding the direction the breed should take and where it stands now, it's much easier to criticize others for their efforts than to try to advance matters oneself, I suppose. They seem to be second guessed and challenged quite often, but those doing the finger pointing can't back up their claims with anythnig more than opinions and theories that conveniently serve their own purposes. In short, I have yet to see any coordination of parti breeders to conduct any comparable studies that support their claims and theories. So until you have something to add to the pot....

[MindieRose]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I just wonder why some people even care what I or anyone else breeds as long as there are no known health issues involved. Why should anyone care if someone wants to breed an Shnikerlabradoodleshnautsu. people want pets, some want unique and different pets. As long as they are healthy and treated properly why should anyone care?

And there are breeds, that I have previously pointed out, that by following the breed standard they are actually breeding dogs with major health issues. And eventually that might even be the case with the yorkies.

I believe I have posted almost this exact same thing several times myself, LOL.

As long as people are breeding responsibly, and by this I mean taking care of their dogs and caring properly for them, making sure there are no health issues, etc, and they are placing their puppies responsibly, then I don't care what color/"quality" dogs they are breeding. MOST people want dogs as pets only, MOST people don't show, and a lot of people have a preference on what color or what breed or mix of breeds they want. I think people should be allowed to have the dog that they want so long as it isn't deliberately breeding a sick animal.
I love all of my dogs, but I absolutely hate the attitude that many (not all) show dog breeders or supposed experts tend to carry along with them. If can do things their way, and let everyone else do things there way, that would be fine, but oh my gosh does the stupid debating get old. And honestly sometimes seems almost Hitler-esque and scarey.

[BamaFan121s]

When the offensive comparisons to historical hate groups start, that's when I check out of the conversation.

[MindieRose]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Because they hate to see unformed people taken advantage of?

Uninformed of what? Someones opinion? Or actual facts? There are many breeders that put just as much time, effort, care, and money, into their off-standard or *heaven forbid* mixed breed dogs, and they are not expected to get anything in return for it because it is not what is in someones opinion (because even the YTCA is a lot of opinion)? If someone is searching for a specific dog breed, or mix of breeds, and they find it and purchase it because it is what they desire, are you saying they are being taken advantage uf because no one had a chance to share their opinion about off-standard or a non-purebred dog?
I guess I am confused about what someone might be uninformed about.
I do agree that many people are taken advantage of by misleading (mostly internet websites) advertising on yorkies and other small dogs, and asking an astronomical amount of money when you could get the same result (or better) by finding a local breeder. I can totally understand how someone in that situation may be uninformed. OR when someone claims to have a "tiny teacup" litter that is for sale. But I think the whole color standard is such an absolute rediculous thing to cause such a uproar about.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by MindieRose

I do agree that many people are taken advantage of by misleading (mostly internet websites) advertising on yorkies and other small dogs, and asking an astronomical amount of money when you could get the same result (or better) by finding a local breeder. I can totally understand how someone in that situation may be uninformed. OR when someone claims to have a "tiny teacup" litter that is for sale.

And that is just the kind of "misinformation" I was referring to. IF people take their time to research ALL aspects of the type dog they are considering, then they will not be taken advantage of. But we all know there are people who make rash decisions, don't do their research first and will fall for any line they are fed. That is what I meant by "taken advantage" of.

Other than that, it's just difference of opinion and desire to preserve the breed, and concern over unknown health issues.

Originally Posted by MindieRose

are you saying they are being taken advantage uf because no one had a chance to share their opinion about off-standard or a non-purebred dog? .

Umm...I'm not saying anything of the sort...I don't see where anyone else is either. (I really don't even understand this statment, to be quite honest.)

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I am really sorry for this; I thought it was important for the average person to understand that improving the breed did not mean bringing in more variety. There is lots of misinformation printed, and sometimes he who posts most is believed. Here's a good link on the difference between a responsible breeder and a back yard breeder. I agree with the conclusion that a responsible breeder improves the breed and a backyard breeder damages the breed. I'm not name calling, but if the shoe fits . . . Responsible Breeder or Backyard Breeder?

I have tried to stay out of this one but I just had to say that I love this article. It is very clear and procise and the reasons given for breeding (and not breeding) are valid and sincere. I find it to be such an educational resource for puppy buyers that I'm going to put it on my website. Thanks for posting this link.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

LOL...good question...why are you?

You know I have asked myself that same question.

You hit the nail on the head...I think that many are concerned about the what isn't "known."

so we just don't go there because of the unknown? We'd still be making buggy whips itf that were the case.

Because they hate to see unformed people taken advantage of?

And because they want to by something of a differnt color, they are being taken advantatge of? How is that, sre you assuming that the majority of dog buyers are ignorant?
Why not shut down all the car dealerships etc if that is the case. I do not take advantage of people but I cannot help what other people do.
So true!



The million dollar question! I think alot of it is quite "personal."

Ya me too, why else would anyone care if I breed partis or not. I'm sure to some if I suddenly declared that I was not going to breed my partis it still would not be good enough because I do not show and not a member of the YTCA.

BTW I don't belong to any church either but does not mean I am not a good Christian.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

In short, I have yet to see any coordination of parti breeders to conduct any comparable studies that support their claims and theories. So until you have something to add to the pot....

Maybe that is because you haven't look closely enough.

[wildcard]

I think way at the beginning of the thread the question was asked of whether to begin breeding with a sound line bred bitch vs. A gorgeous out cross. I think it is more complicated than that. Both bitches I have bred as the foundation of my dogs (papillons not YTs) are the result of a pretty tightly line bred bitch bred to an unrelated dog who was also line bred (no as tight). So the bitches themselves were outcrosses but behind them are line breedings. I recently bred one of these bitches back into her dam's pedigree and am thrilled with the results, the awesome temperment and structure of the dam's line but incoporated into that the better coat of the sire of the dam. The other bitch was outcrossed again to another unrelated line (that sire is the father of one of my other bitches) and thoise puppies are very nice as well, but I think I will be a step closer to what I want once I breed this new generation back into their granddam's line. So if the choice is tightly line bred versus a total mish mash I'd pick the tightly line bred (assuming health is not an issue). But I would not pass up an outcross who is the product of two linebred parents because then you have the benefits of 2 lines and the ability to breed back into either line. Just my opinion.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

When the offensive comparisons to historical hate groups start, that's when I check out of the conversation.

I was expecting that as soon as I read the other post.

That reference is made quite casually about many things. the fashion Nazies, the food Nazies, etc. You know as well as I do that she meant nothing by it.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by MindieRose

Uninformed of what? Someones opinion? Or actual facts? There are many breeders that put just as much time, effort, care, and money, into their off-standard or *heaven forbid* mixed breed dogs, and they are not expected to get anything in return for it because it is not what is in someones opinion (because even the YTCA is a lot of opinion)? If someone is searching for a specific dog breed, or mix of breeds, and they find it and purchase it because it is what they desire, are you saying they are being taken advantage uf because no one had a chance to share their opinion about off-standard or a non-purebred dog?
I guess I am confused about what someone might be uninformed about.
I do agree that many people are taken advantage of by misleading (mostly internet websites) advertising on yorkies and other small dogs, and asking an astronomical amount of money when you could get the same result (or better) by finding a local breeder. I can totally understand how someone in that situation may be uninformed. OR when someone claims to have a "tiny teacup" litter that is for sale. But I think the whole color standard is such an absolute rediculous thing to cause such a uproar about.

Very true and those same people wouldn't listen if you tried to tell them anyway.