Breeding for Improvement?

[iLuv Reeses]

Hi guys, I'm no breeder and I think it will take me a score to even start breeding. It's just that, I love the breed and the ring (which I can't wait to join in).
Anyway, in my quest to learn more about the breed I came across breeders of all types. Forums such as YT also helped me alot from learning with actual experiences from you guys.
From those who really love the breed, there's no other acceptable answer when it comes to the reason for responsible breeding. It must always be, to improve the breed.

What does it truly mean to improve the breed? Let's say all specimens are healthy (assumption) for breeding.
I often see pet-quality yorkies (with a pet pedigree) being bred to a champion. Does it improve the breed?
Or both the dam and the sire should have desirable qualities to contribute to the breed?

It's just that I feel saddened seeing champion sired dogs/bitches used in a puppy mill's breeding program (both the small-scale and large scale) and the lines of the ancestors that took years and hard work to improve only go to waste and only used for marketing purposes.

Share your thoughts and opinions.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by iLuv Reeses

Hi guys, I'm no breeder and I think it will take me a score to even start breeding. It's just that, I love the breed and the ring (which I can't wait to join in).
Anyway, in my quest to learn more about the breed I came across breeders of all types. Forums such as YT also helped me alot from learning with actual experiences from you guys.
From those who really love the breed, there's no other acceptable answer when it comes to the reason for responsible breeding. It must always be, to improve the breed.

What does it truly mean to improve the breed? Let's say all specimens are healthy (assumption) for breeding.
I often see pet-quality yorkies (with a pet pedigree) being bred to a champion. Does it improve the breed?
Or both the dam and the sire should have desirable qualities to contribute to the breed?

It's just that I feel saddened seeing champion sired dogs/bitches used in a puppy mill's breeding program (both the small-scale and large scale) and the lines of the ancestors that took years and hard work to improve only go to waste and only used for marketing purposes.

Share your thoughts and opinions.

Saying that all the dogs are healthy and have been tested, improving the breed means that you are breeding and striving to consistantly produce puppies/dogs that meet the YTCA standred for the breed. Lets say I have a bitch and I want to improve on the top-line or quality of silk, then I would breed to a stud that has these qualities in hopes for improvement in these areas. Any puppies that do not meet YTCA standards are then spay/neutered and placed in loving pet homes and not bred.
I feel that a responsible breeder will not stud their champion/show quality dog to a very pet quality bitch. To me that is "breeding down". You may see some improvements in the puppies produced but the quality will more than likely not be present in that litter. Spay/neuter/place. The owner of the show dog should tell the owner of the bitch that she is not breeding quality and if they are really interested in breeding/showing to go to shows and learn as much as possible in order to make a wiser choice to start a breeding program. As a breeder, I would want the best quality I could buy to start with.
Most responsible breeders have "wised up" over the years to unethical breeders getting ahold of champion stock. Years ago, there was more trust in what people said and did in reguards to their breeding practices and there was no AKC limited on the paperwork. This is how most mills and byb'rs got ahold of champions stock, most of which should have been neutered and spayed. But since the word CHAMPION was in the pedigree, some even 5 generations back, the dogs were used for breeding and the pedigree was used as bragging rights in order to sell more puppies. There was also alot of registration switch-a- roos back then and this is where most of your off colored yorkies came from. Back in the day, there were almost no AKC kennel inspections and zero DNA testing. It was pretty darned easy to claim that any mix was an AKC Yorkie.
Hope I explained that ok!

[BamaFan121s]

As always, great answer Lynn!

To me, "improving the breed" in a breeding program, simply put, means taking to quality specimens of the breed, pairing them to one another based on their physical attributes and how they compliment one another, and breeding them with the goal of producing off-spring that more closely match the "ideal Yorkie" as per breed standard than the parents do.
Judging in a ring consists of a judge determining which dog mirrors the breed standard most closely. Ideally, the off-spring should match it more closely than the parents do. So the question is, when you have to fabulous dogs to start out with, how could you possibly create something even better? Not so easily done--but THAT is the overall goal and the challenge in the grand scheme of things.
At least that's my take on it.

[Kicki]

Just a thought, since I'm dreaming of someday showing a home-bred dog > champion..

If you could choose a foundation bitch; would you choose a line-bred bitch whose background you know well (seen many of the dogs in her pedigree), with good health, topline, coat etc but with some minor faults or a totally cross bred geourgious bitch whose ancestors are total to you..

I think I would choose the known over the un-known.. Just to be pretty sure of my starting point.

[iLuv Reeses]

Great responses everyone... I couldn't agree more. I really think it's best to keep the thoughts flowing to also remind others the essence of breeding and to also make people become aware if the breeder they get their puppy from really breeds to improve.

I've read most articles about responsible breeding which talks about the future of the puppies brought into this world. I agree with yorkiekist that another responsibility to be noted is to be able to evaluate the bitch and the breeder who owns the bitch who needs the stud service...making sure the line to improvement won't be cut short by falling into the wrong hands.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Saying that all the dogs are healthy and have been tested, improving the breed means that you are breeding and striving to consistantly produce puppies/dogs that meet the YTCA standred for the breed. Lets say I have a bitch and I want to improve on the top-line or quality of silk, then I would breed to a stud that has these qualities in hopes for improvement in these areas. Any puppies that do not meet YTCA standards are then spay/neutered and placed in loving pet homes and not bred.
I feel that a responsible breeder will not stud their champion/show quality dog to a very pet quality bitch. To me that is "breeding down". You may see some improvements in the puppies produced but the quality will more than likely not be present in that litter. Spay/neuter/place. The owner of the show dog should tell the owner of the bitch that she is not breeding quality and if they are really interested in breeding/showing to go to shows and learn as much as possible in order to make a wiser choice to start a breeding program. As a breeder, I would want the best quality I could buy to start with.
Most responsible breeders have "wised up" over the years to unethical breeders getting ahold of champion stock. Years ago, there was more trust in what people said and did in reguards to their breeding practices and there was no AKC limited on the paperwork. This is how most mills and byb'rs got ahold of champions stock, most of which should have been neutered and spayed. But since the word CHAMPION was in the pedigree, some even 5 generations back, the dogs were used for breeding and the pedigree was used as bragging rights in order to sell more puppies. There was also alot of registration switch-a- roos back then and this is where most of your off colored yorkies came from. Back in the day, there were almost no AKC kennel inspections and zero DNA testing. It was pretty darned easy to claim that any mix was an AKC Yorkie.
Hope I explained that ok!

Great post Yorkiekist.

I just want to add that improving the breed NEVER means bringing in greater variation, or lots more to choose from. Some people are under the impression that creating a pink yorkie would be improving the breed.

[Golden Parti]

Originally Posted by iLuv Reeses

Hi guys, I'm no breeder and I think it will take me a score to even start breeding. It's just that, I love the breed and the ring (which I can't wait to join in).
Anyway, in my quest to learn more about the breed I came across breeders of all types. Forums such as YT also helped me alot from learning with actual experiences from you guys.
From those who really love the breed, there's no other acceptable answer when it comes to the reason for responsible breeding. It must always be, to improve the breed.

What does it truly mean to improve the breed? Let's say all specimens are healthy (assumption) for breeding.
I often see pet-quality yorkies (with a pet pedigree) being bred to a champion. Does it improve the breed?
Or both the dam and the sire should have desirable qualities to contribute to the breed?

It's just that I feel saddened seeing champion sired dogs/bitches used in a puppy mill's breeding program (both the small-scale and large scale) and the lines of the ancestors that took years and hard work to improve only go to waste and only used for marketing purposes.

Share your thoughts and opinions.

Ok, I have to put my two cents in here. There are a whole lot of people who may not agree with me here but this is my interpretation. Improving the breed to me means breeding for dogs that closely match the breed confirmation standards without regard to colors that are part of the genitic make up of the dog.

The number one priority to me in improving the breed is elimination of genetic defects that cause unhealty dogs. If a genetic defect is found to be in your dog, that dog should never be used to breed. If I ever produce a puppy with a defect that puppy will be fixed and then placed in a loving caring home and the parent dog causing the defect will also be fixed. I believe no dog with a defect should ever be sold for profit.

If your goal is to produce and show dogs then you should start with parents with the proper YTCA colors for showing Blue and Tan.

[BamaFan121s]

You cannot "improve a breed" if you are not breeding to the standards that define the breed itself. It's an oxymoron by definition. Although I think everyone can agree that health and producing lines should be a top priority of any program.

[Golden Parti]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I think everyone can agree that health and producing lines should be a top priority of any program.

At least we can agree on one thing Health is a priority

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

You cannot "improve a breed" if you are not breeding to the standards that define the breed itself. It's an oxymoron by definition. Although I think everyone can agree that health and producing lines should be a top priority of any program.

Sure we can. We can improve on the color selection. All new standards for any breed of dog had to start with a few stubborn rebels, that refused to be shot down, even if that makes us oxymorons.

[iLuv Reeses]

I believe YTCA base the breed standard to what is really healthy. About colors, it really would be great if yorkies can have a variety of colors like pomeranians, chihuahuas and shih tzu. However, studies prove that off-colored yorkies have health issues which hinder the health improvement aspect of the breed. Partis and biewers often have shorter life spans. Blue born yorkies are prone to alopecia. Chocolates have pigmentation issues. It's really inevitable that some would claim that some breeders (those who really stick with the stardards) would just want to keep the off-colored yorkies away. But it's really for the benefit of the breed and protection of the breed that the standard has been established.
Here are the articles to explain the genetics... Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Parti Yorkie Parti Color Yorkshire Terrier and Biewer Yorkies
Top Yorkie Genetics Chocolate Yorkies Chocolate Yorkie Red Golden Blue Born Yorkshire Terrier



All pure-breds are man made and developed through thorough in-breeding already and the gene pool is already limited. The standard Yorkshire Terrier needs further improvement to minimize the genetic health concerns that manifest in the breed. It is really playing with fire if breeders would already jump into bringing out the recessive genes and mutated coloring genes just to bring out other colors when the standard yorkie with the dominant and accepted coloring of blue/tan (golden tan) already encounters genetic problems.

Let's just hope more advancements in genetics to the point that all the genetic markers of diseases in the dna have been found and hereditary diseases can be identified. Then maybe, in the future, breeders can zero out on true healthy specimens and colors won't be an issue if a dog is proven free of genetic problems.

[Golden Parti]

Originally Posted by iLuv Reeses

I believe YTCA base the breed standard to what is really healthy. About colors, it really would be great if yorkies can have a variety of colors like pomeranians, chihuahuas and shih tzu. However, studies prove that off-colored yorkies have health issues which hinder the health improvement aspect of the breed. Partis and biewers often have shorter life spans. Blue born yorkies are prone to alopecia. Chocolates have pigmentation issues. It's really inevitable that some would claim that some breeders (those who really stick with the stardards) would just want to keep the off-colored yorkies away. But it's really for the benefit of the breed and protection of the breed that the standard has been established.
Here are the articles to explain the genetics... Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Parti Yorkie Parti Color Yorkshire Terrier and Biewer Yorkies
Top Yorkie Genetics Chocolate Yorkies Chocolate Yorkie Red Golden Blue Born Yorkshire Terrier



All pure-breds are man made and developed through thorough in-breeding already and the gene pool is already limited. The standard Yorkshire Terrier needs further improvement to minimize the genetic health concerns that manifest in the breed. It is really playing with fire if breeders would already jump into bringing out the recessive genes and mutated coloring genes just to bring out other colors when the standard yorkie with the dominant and accepted coloring of blue/tan (golden tan) already encounters genetic problems.

Let's just hope more advancements in genetics to the point that all the genetic markers of diseases in the dna have been found and hereditary diseases can be identified. Then maybe, in the future, breeders can zero out on true healthy specimens and colors won't be an issue if a dog is proven free of genetic problems.

Please provide links to these studies. The links you have provided show no scientific evidence and No studies to back their statements. I have been looking for a year now and Have not been able to find one single bit of proof to these statements. In fact all the evidence I can find points out that these colored dogs are just as healthy and possibly more healthy than the standard colored dogs. So, I ask again to please provide me the link to back up your statements and to show the scientific studies that show colored dogs to be less healthy.

[Golden Parti]

Since we are posting links, I thought I would post a couple more for everyone to read.

All about the Red


Parti Yorkie History


Biewer Terrier Club

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Golden Parti

Please provide links to these studies. The links you have provided show no scientific evidence and No studies to back their statements. I have been looking for a year now and Have not been able to find one single bit of proof to these statements. In fact all the evidence I can find points out that these colored dogs are just as healthy and possibly more healthy than the standard colored dogs. So, I ask again to please provide me the link to back up your statements and to show the scientific studies that show colored dogs to be less healthy.

Despite the fact that I do not support indiscriminate breeding of off-colored Yorkies, I have to agree...to an extent. In regards to blue born Yorkies, the presence of increased health issues HAS been proven. In regards to the other off-colored specimens, I have not seen any scientific studies supporting the claim either. (Doesn't mean it doesn't exists, I just mean that I have not seen it.) I have to wonder if it's because the introduction of the color variation is new and there has not been enough time for long term test to provide such results, or if it really is the case that there are no increased issues. Only time will tell, I suppose.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Golden Parti

Since we are posting links, I thought I would post a couple more for everyone to read.

All about the Red


Parti Yorkie History


Biewer Terrier Club

Interesting links...but they are no more 'concrete, scientific proof' than the other links listed. They are just another person's or group of person's opinions and theories based on their own research.