Breeding for Improvement?

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I not sure how you got all that out of my statement; I realize for some, dog breeding is a business; many people don't believe it should be. How this relates to the Nazis, I don't understand. Show breeders' dogs are often much less expensive than pet quality dogs, and a real bargain, if you can obtain one. Most show breeders believe that puppy placement is more important than money received. I don't think it's imperative for every breeder to show, but I believe that a good breeder should work closely with others to insure that their breeding dogs are great examples of the breed, for many people can't properly evaluate their own dogs. When we have a pet, we often overlook its flaws, and only see its beauty, and I believe that's the way it should be. This is a difference in philosophy and I accept their philosophy, obviously you don't. I truly believe there are breeders out there who's only goal is to better the breed, not to make money from their dogs. Most show breeders are lucky to break even.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Golden Parti

a little education on breeding Parti Colored Yorkies.

Current Cost of dogs as set by supply and Demand $4000 to $5000 each
Cost of flying to check out to make sure breeder is not a puppy mill, another roughly another 1000 per breeder. Cost of health and Care for your new Parti colored dogs 1300 to 1400 per year.

Now raise your dogs for a couple of years and hope they have desirable traits of their parents. If they do not turn out the right size or with proper traits. Start over and find a new dog, possibly including cost to fly to visit breeder.

Ok, if you are lucky in a couple years and $13000 invested later you get your first puppies. OOOps, there are complications and you have to have C section. The vet also ends up nuetering the dog $500 to $2000 Start over and wait another 2 years unless you can find someone selling an adult for another $5000.

Is the price starting to make any sense yet? which cost should a responsible breeder cut? Do you believe they should skimp on the health care? Should they Skip checking out the breeders? Raising any dogs and giving them proper care is not cheep.

I'm sorry, I have to laugh a little at the way you've worded this and that fact that you feel I need "a little education" on the costs for caring for dogs. If it wasn't so funny, I might be insulted.

The justification of costs seems to come largely in part of the initial purchase of the breeding stock--there seems to be the problem. So because one person was willing to pay an arm and a leg for a dog, everyone down the line must do the same. Although I fully understand why many are charging more for them, I fail to understand how one can justify the difference in cost between a parti and a standard colored dog. Oh yeah, it's that supply and demand thing again... People who may or may not have any general knowledge of what a Parti is get an itch to get a rare Yorkie and fork over the big bucks. Bonus points for them if they can get one w/ breeding rights and turn around and profit off of them.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Yes, among other things. Unfortunately you are right about this. The 'reasoning' behind this on the other hand, I don't think is agreed upon. The higher price has nothing to do with there 'not being many of them.' And if that IS the case, then it's a shame...because at that point the ability to pull in more money, not the well being of the dogs, it what becomes the main focus.

That can be said about anything, but it is not the truth in all cases. we cannot control those who choose to breed just for profit and care nothing about the dog, no more than you can. this is a free enterprise system.

our best "defense" is "offense". Educate thde people on what makes a good breeder and put the focus where it belongs.

that Article Lawrence County Humane Society Abuse and Adoption Center that was mentioned before is absolutely ridiculous. Most people are going to see it immediately for what it is. to say that anyone who does not show dogs or belong to dog groups, is not fit to breed dogs is ridiculous. And to say that everyone that does show dogs is a good breeder is even more ridiculous.

I didn't belong to parenting groups either but I raised 6 wonderful children to be wonderful responsible adults. I was too busy raising my kids to belong to social groups.

In fact one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

It's like saying that ONLY people who go to church are good Christians, and worse yet that ALL people who go to church are good Christians. we all know that isn't true either.

it's stuff like that, that turns people off completely and then any good information looses it's value, because people don't know what to believe.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

That can be said about anything, but it is not the truth in all cases. we cannot control those who choose to breed just for profit and care nothing about the dog, no more than you can. this is a free enterprise system.

our best "defense" is "offense". Educate thde people on what makes a good breeder and put the focus where it belongs.

I did not mean to imply that everyone who breeds partis doing nothing but trying to pocket a huge profit. I know that not every breeder out there is selling their dogs for the ridiculous prices you see some being sold for. My apologies if it came accross that way.

And you are right--the best defense is educating people on choosing an ethical breeder--I think that is the overall goal on all 'sides.'

[Golden Parti]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I'm sorry, I have to laugh a little at the way you've worded this and that fact that you feel I need "a little education" on the costs for caring for dogs. If it wasn't so funny, I might be insulted.

The justification of costs seems to come largely in part of the initial purchase of the breeding stock--there seems to be the problem. So because one person was willing to pay an arm and a leg for a dog, everyone down the line must do the same. Although I fully understand why many are charging more for them, I fail to understand how one can justify the difference in cost between a parti and a standard colored dog. Oh yeah, it's that supply and demand thing again... People who may or may not have any general knowledge of what a Parti is get an itch to get a rare Yorkie and fork over the big bucks. Bonus points for them if they can get one w/ breeding rights and turn around and profit off of them.

well the other option was to wait 5 years to get them when the price may or may not come down depending on the various factors involved. Can I ask how much did you pay for your Biewer?

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Because they are still YORKIES. And at that, they are not very common. There are alot of people that are breeding them unethically--not doing proper testing, not doing any kind of research, lots not even breeding full Yorkies, lots of millers all trying to sell something "rare" for a huge amount. The concerns are the same for the standard colored Yorkies. Whether they are accepted or not, as long as they are still associated with the Yorkshire Terrier, I feel like any Yorkie lover, breeder, YTCA member or not has a vested intersted in what is going on with them and has a desire to see fellow YT enthusiasts educated about them as fully as possible.

I honestly don't understand why is ISN'T an issue for some.

Well according the YTCFA they are NOT eyorkies becAuse there was no piebald genen in the yorkie make up.

Unethical breeding is an issue for all of us. we all agree that they be raised and bred responsibly, but the YTCA says they should not be bred at all, but then they say they are NOT yorkies. The cannot have it both way.

I know that you prsonally don't object to the breeding as long as it is done responsibly, but there are those that do and that is what this 'discussion" is all about.

I think we can safely say, that we all agree that breeding should be done responsibly. And that puppy millers should be outlawed as they are in other countries. But not everyone that is not a show breeder or who breeds parti colored yorkies, is irresponsible as the YTCA would have us believe.

And that is the type of crap that makes them seem less authentic or professional, and takes away from their credibility, because people can see through the crap, and see them for what they really are.

They really should just stick to the positive. State their standards and let it be.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I think we can safely say, that we all agree that breeding should be done responsibly. And that puppy millers should be outlawed as they are in other countries. But not everyone that is not a show breeder or who breeds parti colored yorkies, is irresponsible as the YTCA would have us believe.

Agreed. And when the ethical breeders are more than just a small handful and there has been extensive research on the Partis, I'm sure lots will see things differently.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Yes, among other things. Unfortunately you are right about this. The 'reasoning' behind this on the other hand, I don't think is agreed upon. The higher price has nothing to do with there 'not being many of them.' And if that IS the case, then it's a shame...because at that point the ability to pull in more money, not the well being of the dogs, it what becomes the main focus.

Of course it is supply and demand because if there are lots of them for sale then you would have to lower your price to get people to buy from you instead of someone else.

what I can't understand is that some puppymills sell cheap to to get rid of them and make a quick buck and the next one comes on with all the hype and convince people that their puppy mill dog is worth thousands more than somone elses puppy mill dog.

Now that is truely not supply and demand. It's unscrupulous marketing practices.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Well according the YTCFA they are NOT eyorkies becAuse there was no piebald genen in the yorkie make up.

the YTCA says they should not be bred at all, but then they say they are NOT yorkies.

So why is it that they do not want to recognize them? Is it because they claim they are not Yorkies? A few posts ago it was said that is was because of the money being charged for them....or is it both? The reason seems to keep changing. EXACTLY what statements or stance of the YTCA's are upsetting so many?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

what I can't understand is that some puppymills sell cheap to to get rid of them and make a quick buck and the next one comes on with all the hype and convince people that their puppy mill dog is worth thousands more than somone elses puppy mill dog.

LOL....I don't know either, which is I guess a good thing. I certainly don't want to "understand" the mindset of a miller.

[Golden Parti]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

So why is it that they do not want to recognize them? Is it because they claim they are not Yorkies? A few posts ago it was said that is was because of the money being charged for them....or is it both? The reason seems to keep changing. EXACTLY what statements or stance of the YTCA's are upsetting so many?

Correct me if I am wrong, but would it not make more sense for the YTCA to recognize them and to set a seperate standard for them if they truly want to make sure they are being bred to proper standards? just a thought

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Golden Parti

Correct me if I am wrong, but would it not make more sense for the YTCA to recognize them and to set a seperate standard for them if they truly want to make sure they are being bred to proper standards? just a thought

Why would the YTCA set a standard for them? None of the members breed them? If that is something that Parti breeders want to see happen, then they need to coordinate their efforts, put in the time to research and do genetic testing and work towards that goal. Not just expect the YTCA to do all the footwork for them so that they can breed their dogs with recognition and acceptance. In any case, would you really want an organization who is not in support of your goals to be governing what 'standards' you breed to?

[Golden Parti]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Why would the YTCA set a standard for them? None of the members breed them? If that is something that Parti breeders want to see happen, then they need to coordinate their efforts, put in the time to research and do genetic testing and work towards that goal. Not just expect the YTCA to do all the footwork for them so that they can breed their dogs with recognition and acceptance. In any case, would you really want an organization who is not in support of your goals to be governing what 'standards' you breed to?

Didn't say that the breeders want this, just saying if they wanted to control it. You still did not answer how much you paid for your Biewer? Just curious because price seems to be such a hot issue with the Parti's. What is the going rate for Biewers?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Golden Parti

Didn't say that the breeders want this, just saying if they wanted to control it.

I think they've made it pretty clear that they have no interest in controling it or having anything to do with it.

Originally Posted by Golden Parti

You still did not answer how much you paid for your Biewer? Just curious because price seems to be such a hot issue with the Parti's. What is the going rate for Biewers?

You are correct--I did not answer 'how much I paid for my Biewer' because quite frankly I don't think it's any of your business. No offense, but IMO, it's a very personal question and quite rude to ask and then DEMAND an answer, on top of that. I thought it would be more polite to just not acknoweldge it, but since you seem insistant on a response...

For the record though, I believe that many Biewers are probably priced too high for the same reasons as the Partis--dishonest breeders trying to make a profit off of something new with no justification for the costs. I think that what a dog costs hinges on alot of factors, from dog to dog and new owner to new owner. I could care less what the cost of any dog is as long as there is a reason for it other than "Because I know that I will find someone willing to pay that much."

[Golden Parti]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I
You are correct--I did not answer 'how much I paid for my Biewer' because quite frankly I don't think it's any of your business. No offense, but IMO, it's a very personal question and quite rude to ask and then DEMAND an answer, on top of that. I thought it would be more polite to just not address the question, but since you seem insistant on a response...

For the record though, I believe that many of them are probably priced too high for the same reasons as the Partis--dishonest breeders trying to make a profit off of something new with no justification for the costs. I could care less what the cost of any dog is as long as there is a reason for it other than "Because I know that I will find someone willing to pay that much."

Just looking for some sort of an answer as to what was to much and what amount you thought was OK to pay. You must have some opinion on this because you yourself have a Biewer. I have not done any research into what Biewers are going for but no one seems to be screeming about the price of them the way they are about Parti's.

If there was no one willing to pay the price the price would then drop to a rate that someone was willing to pay. This is part of suppy and demand and also something our economy is based on. You wanted a Biewer so you paid whatever it cost. I wanted Parti's so I paid what they cost. Everyone else who wants them pays what they cost or waits till the price drops. That is a personal choice. No, I do not really care what you paid, Just trying to understand what you think justifies a reasonable price and if you think a free market economy is a bad thing?