The Great Debate..."Breeder" or "Backyard Breeder"

[TeddyandTiffy]

Originally Posted by Marc

First off...I do NOT want this thread to turn ugly, lol. I am posting this for debate and learning on both sides. I am not what you guys call a "breeder" nor am I what you guys call a "backyard breeder" at this time. I am a new owner of a female Yorkie and we may breed her at some point. For the purpose of learning and debate....I am going to assume and post as it would be that I am going to breed her.

I invite all "breeders" and "backyard breeders" and pet owners to post. Please, no need to get heated in here. Ha.

Ok, after reading some of the posts in the breeder section here I am a little confused about what is going on. The term "wanted and unwanted" pups is used alot when someone comes in here who wants to breed their "pet" Yorkie. I am curious...what makes your pups as a breeder wanted and my Yorkies pups unwanted? If I breed mine to another Yorkie then why would yours be more desired than mine?

Do you intend on breeding toward the AKC Standard or away from the AKC Standard?

Also, if I am a new owner and am interested in breeding her at some point...do my research and feel confident that I can do it...what makes that any different than you when you first started breeding?

I hope the difference in you and me is that you Do your research and know what you are getting into before breeding your female...I never did any research before I bred my Yorkies...I adopted Teddy and Tiffanie and never intended on Breeding them, then I did breed them...I had NO clue what I was getting into at all...Call me a backyard breeder if you choose or pet breeder. I did realize I was doing wrong and corrected myself. I realized my mistake and learned from my mistake and by the grace of God and I do mean by the Grace of God we had 10 healthy puppies, we could of had 10 very very sick puppies and even could of lost our mommy which I never knew when I bred them cause I DIDN'T do my research 1st.

Also, there is much talk from the "breeders" about unwanted pups from people who post as new owners and advice for them to go rescue one from the Humane Society or Sheter. Aren't you as "breeders" also contributing to the dog population? The same could be said of you....

I have it in my contract that my puppies/adults are NOT allowed to go to anyone else beside returning them to me. I'm trying to protect my puppies/adults this way.

spay and neuter your Yorkies and go volunteer as a person who takes in placed females with their pups till they find homes for them. No? It seems that when you tell a newbie to go get one from the shelter to help with the overpopulation of dogs...and then you are breeding numerous litters a year....a bit odd, no?

I did have my Tiffanie Spayed to not allow someone else to breed her.

And....after reading a few threads that "newbies" started for help...I see that the risks of breeding this breed and the potential costs come up. But if that pet owner did their research and are in full knowledge of the risks and cost....why does that still get the "breeders" goat? Everytime a "breeder" breeds her female she is at the very same risks and costs as the "newbie". Your female and her female are no different. What happens will happen to either.

Well, let's start there. Again, I am NOT in anyway heated...just looking to learn and debate this topic.

Ok, let's talk a bit about the money part of it. How much do you figure it cost per pup. You dock, feed, vet fees, vacs...etc. How much do you figure you spend on one pup till it reaches it's new home?

There is a lot of money spent in raising and caring for Yorkies more when you have sickly babies or have to keep them longer due to not being able to find them good loving homes. The cost veries with each litter but I can tell you I'm in the hole from 2 litters alone.


So if a breeders pup has 3 pups at 1500 bucks a pup...that is 7500 dollars. The cost of the entire litter is say 800 bucks if no c-section is required. I'd say that the breeder is making a huge profit, no? What does it matter then if joe-blow makes a few bucks?

You can't put 2 "Pet Quality" Yorkies together and expect to make $1500 each off a puppy...Unless your breeding for smaller puppies like 2lb puppies then if you do that your going away from the AKC Standards. At least I couldn't adopt my 3 out as Pet Quality where we live for no $1500 each. If they are making a big huge profit then those Yorkies are not being bred, whelped and raised right with the Yorkshire Terriers BEST benifit in mind. I had 4 in 1 litter and had to give one away due to it being to big at 12 weeks old, had 1 in another litter I had to give away for the same reason. And I gave Tiffanie away due to her being big and I spent the money myself having her spaded before giving her away. Tiffanie threw out 1 big puppy in her litters and she herself was a larger teapot Yorkie and with her being larger, when anyone called asking the size of the puppies parents then it put a hinder on us adopting them out. So there for we ended up having to keep some of them till they was 6 months old so then again the price for caring for our babies went up. Not everyone makes a profit off of breeding Yorkies I don't understand why people think they do. Do alot of you even know what clear profit is???
These are just my OPOs and I'm being honest with you Lee

[TeddyandTiffy]

Originally Posted by Marc

This is the thing. I have read numerous threads here where a newbie (in terms of breeding) posts a thread with a question and they were jumped on. Yet, that is no different then when any breeder first started out. Why is that? Cause someone asks the question the breeders assume that is it an irresponsible person for wanting to breed? Yet that is exactly how you all started...with asking questions.

I didn't ask any questions when I started breeding MY own PRSONAL MISTAKE and yes I REGRET it.Makes no sense to me. Why not lay down the risks and costs and offer help when needed instead of jumping on them?
We've tried to do that also but it doesn't help either.

Also, why is the breeders views on people who want their pet to have a litter or two as producing unwanted pets...when the breeder produces far more than just one or two litters?

Again, I'm not huffy...just asking. Oh lord...I really can't stress that I am just debating this and am not at my computer mad, lol.

Again these is just my OPOs. Lee

[Marc]

Originally Posted by RebelBelle

Pat, I think that says it perfectly.

As stictly an owner, I think that my Jamie is absolutely perfect... for me! But I know that his bite is off. Which according to the standard is a flaw. Even though I don't chance losing my baby by breeding him with a female, I see no reason to breed a flaw into a whole new litter of puppies. Is it a huge flaw that would make a puppy unwanted? No. But lets say his puppies had an underbite and off coloring, then the owner of those puppies wanted to have just one litter a piece. Then all those puppies could have 3 flaws and then the cycle just continues. Even if a breeder doesn't want to show, their dams and sires should be show quality. That is what keeps yorkies as close as possible to the standard.

I can say that I read the Breeder section alot (just because it's interesting). While I don't know that the way they go about it is always right, alot of the longtime members and breeders only get upset with people who ask questions too late or don't seem to be listening to advice that is given. I have seen several "new breeders" welcomed with open arms as it was clear that they were doing their research and planned on breeding to the standard.

BTW Marc I think this thread is going well!

Yes, I think the thread is going just fine. I am still alive! Lol...I thought I was gonna get slaughtered after my first responses were "good luck with the thread"..lol...I started sweating. Ha.

I see what you are saying about the breeder section and that is some of the reason I thought a "nice" thread about it may help both sides see the other side a bit. There was a lot of "jumping on" and such from the breeders (not trying to ruffle feathers so don't take it too personally) and I was rather confused by it all. Some pet owners have very good intentions and really need to learn instead of being hammered for asking questions. I can see where this happens as we are not face to face. You out there can't see that I am a good person with curiousities on breeding my Yorkie that I LOVE...even if just once. So, I thought it best to try to understand why the heatedness when "newbies" ask...when I could tell that the "newbies" are just that...new and learning. I know what it feels like to have a pet and have the "itch" if you will, to see her have a litter. I have a Hymie cat that I love to pieces and wanted greatly to see her care for her own.....but made a choice to fix her instead.

Anyhoo...now we have our Yorkie and, yes, when we researched her and before even getting her we thought we would give one litter a try and watch her be a momma. We may or may not do that.....I won't know till next year. Right now she is my baby in training and she will always be that, lol...fiesty little bugger she is! Ok, I am babblin' on here...sorry.

[Gazou]

Originally Posted by Marc

What is the ratio of pups in a litter (from responsible breeders)that are sold as pets (not meeting standard or otherwise) vs sold as show dogs meeting standards?

On a litter of 3 , I can sell 1 for show , if I really know the person , the others will be spayed or neutered before leaving my home . I really don't believe in the non-breeding agreement or must spay or neuter contracts .

[Gazou]

Marc , what are the lines on you yorkie's pedigree ? Who is the breeder ?

[bjh]

Marc....it is good that you are asking questions. You have plenty of time to do research on breeding. You would not want to breed your female unless she is a good representative of the breed. You would want to have all the necessary health checkups to make sure she doe not have LP or liver problems. The same for the male you breed her to. You want him to be a good representative of the breed and in sound health and body. There are always risks in breeding and you have heard all the worst case scenarios but there are also many many joys in breeding if done properly and if all goes well.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Gazou

On a litter of 3 , I can sell 1 for show , if I really know the person , the others will be spayed or neutered before leaving my home . I really don't believe in the non-breeding agreement or must spay or neuter contracts .

Ok, so would you say then that because only one is "show quality" that you are contributing to the crowded dog population just like any pet breeder out there is if their pup has a litter of 2 or 3 that they sell as "pets"?

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

..we get so many new members, so the "long timers" will have to ignore me.....
The breed we all love and adore on this forum is the Yorkie...what makes a Yorkie a Yorkie? A Yorkie is not a Poodle or a Maltese when the breeder uses the standard as their "recipe"...
I was reading another forum and several breeders said.."this is all fine for you, but we breed pets, so adhering to the standard is unimportant for pets...the pet lover is going to be very upset if they pay good money for a Yorkie and the breeder has no clue as to what one is suppose to look or act like...you can only water down milk so many times...soon it is water and is no longer milk.

A breeder who is dedicated and strives to produce the best of the best each time is very valuable to the breed...this is the area where I see a difference in the types of breeders there are, rather then backyard, show, hobby, miller.

THAT was very well said !

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Gazou

Marc , what are the lines on you yorkie's pedigree ? Who is the breeder ?

I bought my baby girl from a lady who owns 2 Yorkies as her pets. After I drove an hour to a Yorkie breeder and was totally disgusted by the amount of animals she had and the apparent lack of time with them....I chose to search for a person who had their pet have pups. The entire process took me since last fall. I did not take any of it lightly and made my choice. The "papers" and "labels" meant nothing to me by the time I was done. I wanted a girl who was gorgeous and loved in a home that had just mom or just mom and dad. That is the girl I have. An unregistered beauty! She's great.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by bjh

Marc....it is good that you are asking questions. You have plenty of time to do research on breeding. You would not want to breed your female unless she is a good representative of the breed. You would want to have all the necessary health checkups to make sure she doe not have LP or liver problems. The same for the male you breed her to. You want him to be a good representative of the breed and in sound health and body. There are always risks in breeding and you have heard all the worst case scenarios but there are also many many joys in breeding if done properly and if all goes well.

I am soon going to dip into the threads on how breeding really goes with Yorkies...that will be my determining factor, lol. As far as her being a good representative....I need to watch her grow and learn from what I see. Is she show quality? I doubt it. Does that mean I wouldn't potentially breed her with a yorkie male that is suitable? No...I would certainly consider doing it.

My biggest area of interest is learning about what needs to fall into place in order for it to be possible...and the risks and cost involved. When that time comes (should it come) I will probably start a thread about it...lol.

[Gazou]

Originally Posted by Marc

Ok, so would you say then that because only one is "show quality" that you are contributing to the crowded dog population just like any pet breeder out there is if their pup has a litter of 2 or 3 that they sell as "pets"?

No , I don't .

[Marc]

Just so there is no confusion....I'm a girl. I think some may think that Marc is kinda like Mark.....nope....I'm a mom of three, married, canadian.

Also...I am trying to keep up with responding to every post in the thread...If I miss one...let me know, k?

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Gazou

No , I don't .

How come? You are selling two that didn't meet standards and were therefor sold as pets. The pet owner down the street had her female bred with another male and they had 2 pups....sold as pets not meeting standard. How is it any different? It seems clear to me then that both parties are contributing to the pet population.

[RebelBelle]

Originally Posted by Marc

I bought my baby girl from a lady who owns 2 Yorkies as her pets. After I drove an hour to a Yorkie breeder and was totally disgusted by the amount of animals she had and the apparent lack of time with them....I chose to search for a person who had their pet have pups. The entire process took me since last fall. I did not take any of it lightly and made my choice. The "papers" and "labels" meant nothing to me by the time I was done. I wanted a girl who was gorgeous and loved in a home that had just mom or just mom and dad. That is the girl I have. An unregistered beauty! She's great.

I would think that it would definitely be harder to place unregistered pups. Also I know that in my area you couldn't place them without papers for over about $600.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Marc

I bought my baby girl from a lady who owns 2 Yorkies as her pets. After I drove an hour to a Yorkie breeder and was totally disgusted by the amount of animals she had and the apparent lack of time with them....I chose to search for a person who had their pet have pups. The entire process took me since last fall. I did not take any of it lightly and made my choice. The "papers" and "labels" meant nothing to me by the time I was done. I wanted a girl who was gorgeous and loved in a home that had just mom or just mom and dad. That is the girl I have. An unregistered beauty! She's great.

Are you saying your Yorkie is not registered? No papers? Were the parents registered or did you buy her with limited registration on a spay and neuter contract......just curious why you called her an 'unregistered beauty'.