The Great Debate..."Breeder" or "Backyard Breeder"

[magicgenie]

In New England you get 3 pups at $1500, that's $4500. If nothing goes wrong your expenses will be : X-ray, exam and post whelping oxytocin for dam, $300, tail docking is $150, 2 sets of vaccinations $350, food and supplies $500. That leaves you a whopping $3200 for the 6 hours spent sitting on the floor assisting with the whelping, two hours a day for 90 or so days feeding and cleaning up after the puppies, 30 loads of laundry, travel expenses to the vet, advertising your puppies for sale, answering phone calls at all hours of the day and night from people inquiring about your puppies--and believe me they do call at 11:00 at night--then the inconvenience of having total strangers come to your house with all their friends and relatives to look at your puppies, then try to bargain on the price. If you think that's good money...

[Marc]

Originally Posted by topknot

JMO -
Great question! Some people consider them hobby breeders and not back yard breeders if they take care of their dogs. But what if they are breeding sub-standard quality? I too think that when someone breeds their own dog/s - the dogs need to be of good quality and as close as possible to the standard. That does not mean you have to show, but at least get them evaluated to see if they are worth breeding!
One person said, "Well, if I have homes for them what should it matter?" It does matter if those people breed the pups (when old enough) and they are not of good quality. All it does is pull the quality of our breed down.

Cost - wow! It can be very expensive! I have a litter of two pups, included is stud fee, travel to another state for the breeeding and returning to pick up my bitch. Of course testing before breeding. C-section, vet visit for mom after the c-section (later that week due to an infection), pups dew claw removal and tail docking, add in 4 week check up, 7 week check up and now 10 week check up - each check up is about 60 - 70.00 each time and I have one more to go. Not to mention litter paper fee, no sleep the first 7 days, etc... And I almost lost my bitch to the infection. Oh yea, add two more vet visits - Knight eat poop and was throwing up so took him to the vet and Trey got sick (vet forgot to worm him). So it does add up. You do not make any money on pups!!

All this is just my experience and my opinion.
T.

So why, other than money, do you continue to do it? If you are having infections of your girl and throwing up and such....is that "fun" for you yorkie? That does sound just as irresponsible as what the bb are being accused of, no? Really, make me understand that. She is infected, vomitting, surgery......that is alot for the dog. It must be money then, no?

Again I feel I have to say that I am not mad or trying to be mean...just playing the other side to gather thoughts and knowledge.

[YorkieRose]

I honestly will not tell people not to breed if they have an excellent bitch, from a top of the line pedigree. There are 7 dogs represented in the first 3 generations of a pedigree...the dog is one, parents two and grandparents three. These are the dogs who must IMO be champions..not 4 or 5 gens back.
...I know not all champions are quality...but when I started out none in 3 gens rarely ever gave me anything of quality...or standard bred...it certainly gave me no breed quality studs..

I do not believe a breeder must show..but I do believe they must do everything else a show breeder does, buy the same quality breeding dogs, use excellent studs (no pet quality studs)).....attend shows, become friends with show breeders to be mentored, learn pedigrees, learn and improve yearly.

I thought I was doing great at first, then I started going to shows, meeting breeders, learning quality..POW..guess what, it hit me like a ton of bicks..I was not producing the best I could..so I started over...reproducing average pets is not my goal, never has been..I have not found a way to do it without being close to the ring..heck, people did not say more then "Hi and bye" to me for awhile, who cared..I was there to watch the Yorkies move, learn structure, coats, color, everything...perhaps, some can learn these things from the Internet or books...not me..I need to see and have a hands on, you can not feel proper coat texture from a photo..movement and structure is lost in a book....breeders take notice of the serious fancier and it does take too long to be accepted and helped...
Sorry, I went on too long...I could say so much more...

PS..one last thing..it makes me want to scream at the top of my lungs when a breeder says..."I do not breed show dogs, just pets, so these things are not important"...GRRRRRRRRRRRR...breeding to the standard as closely as possible and to improve is the only ethical reason to breed IMO..we owe it to the breed we love so much...why short change them?

[jacirae]

Originally Posted by Marc

First off...I do NOT want this thread to turn ugly, lol. I am posting this for debate and learning on both sides. I am not what you guys call a "breeder" nor am I what you guys call a "backyard breeder" at this time. I am a new owner of a female Yorkie and we may breed her at some point. For the purpose of learning and debate....I am going to assume and post as it would be that I am going to breed her.

I invite all "breeders" and "backyard breeders" and pet owners to post. Please, no need to get heated in here. Ha.

Ok, after reading some of the posts in the breeder section here I am a little confused about what is going on. The term "wanted and unwanted" pups is used alot when someone comes in here who wants to breed their "pet" Yorkie. I am curious...what makes your pups as a breeder wanted and my Yorkies pups unwanted? If I breed mine to another Yorkie then why would yours be more desired than mine?

Also, if I am a new owner and am interested in breeding her at some point...do my research and feel confident that I can do it...what makes that any different than you when you first started breeding?

Also, there is much talk from the "breeders" about unwanted pups from people who post as new owners and advice for them to go rescue one from the Humane Society or Sheter. Aren't you as "breeders" also contributing to the dog population? The same could be said of you....spay and neuter your Yorkies and go volunteer as a person who takes in placed females with their pups till they find homes for them. No? It seems that when you tell a newbie to go get one from the shelter to help with the overpopulation of dogs...and then you are breeding numerous litters a year....a bit odd, no?

And....after reading a few threads that "newbies" started for help...I see that the risks of breeding this breed and the potential costs come up. But if that pet owner did their research and are in full knowledge of the risks and cost....why does that still get the "breeders" goat? Everytime a "breeder" breeds her female she is at the very same risks and costs as the "newbie". Your female and her female are no different. What happens will happen to either.

Well, let's start there. Again, I am NOT in anyway heated...just looking to learn and debate this topic.

this is a good subject... i have been a breeder a short time...it has been a learning experience.. it literally takes years to work a plan... the plan is not the same for everyone.. but with the correct motives, it is a good thing.. but it is a 20 year committmnet. dogs live a long time these days.. dont let the negatives get you down.. there is good news available also...

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Marc

So why, other than money, do you continue to do it? If you are having infections of your girl and throwing up and such....is that "fun" for you yorkie? That does sound just as irresponsible as what the bb are being accused of, no? Really, make me understand that. She is infected, vomitting, surgery......that is alot for the dog. It must be money then, no?

Again I feel I have to say that I am not mad or trying to be mean...just playing the other side to gather thoughts and knowledge.

No! I do not do this for the money. I do not have litters often and only breed to have a show hopeful of my own breeding - I have only had three litters in 10 years!. We did not expect a c-section. She was tested and checked by a vet before breeding and given the thumbs up to breed by my vet. She was also evaulated as to see if she was close enough to the standard and was also approved by the stud owner to breed to. The stud I used is a champion, Westminster participant, and a two time Grand Sweeps winner! I paid a lot for the stud service too! My girl is championed sired and dam. She has a ton of champions in her pedigree - even 3 out of her 4 grandparents are champions. I paid a lot for her - to show - almost 4,000. I plan to show her after these pups. The infection was due to her c-section that we did not expect to have. The pups going to the vet is normal for this and that - and they will eat poop - it happens and you can't always prevent it. They are fast little boogers. LOL
I do not plan to sell Trey and Knight (the pups resulting from this breeding) for a long time and will keep one for show. I will probably not make up my mind till they are about 6-8 months min. and show them at a Speciality and also have them evaluated. The one I do part with with be neutered before leaving for his forever home to be well spoiled as a pet!

Be careful playing "devil's advocate!" What I do and the decisions I have made have always been made with my yorkies in mind. I love them - they sleep with me and are my babies!! At least if I breed - I am hopefully keeping the standard up there!
T.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by topknot

No! I do not do this for the money. I do not have litters often and only breed to have a show hopeful of my own breeding - I have only had three litters in 10 years!. We did not expect a c-section. She was tested and checked by a vet before breeding and given the thumbs up to breed by my vet. She was also evaulated as to see if she was close enough to the standard and was also approved by the stud owner to breed to. The stud I used is a champion, Westminster participant, and a two time Grand Sweeps winner! I paid a lot for the stud service too! My girl is championed sired and dam. She has a ton of champions in her pedigree - even 3 out of her 4 grandparents are champions. I paid a lot for her - to show - almost 4,000. I plan to show her after these pups. The infection was due to her c-section that we did not expect to have. The pups going to the vet is normal for this and that - and they will eat poop - it happens and you can't always prevent it. They are fast little boogers. LOL
I do not plan to sell Trey and Knight (the pups resulting from this breeding) for a long time and will keep one for show. I will probably not make up my mind till they are about 6-8 months min. and show them at a Speciality and also have them evaluated. The one I do part with with be neutered before leaving for his forever home to be well spoiled as a pet!

Be careful playing "devil's advocate!" What I do and the decisions I have made have always been made with my yorkies in mind. I love them - they sleep with me and are my babies!! At least if I breed - I am hopefully keeping the standard up there!
T.

I do realize that by posting in the "side" I am posting it looks like I am doggin' on breeders. I totally have nothing against a good breeder OR a responsible pet owner breeding.

I am being careful..trust me,lol. And I'm glad you added that bit at the end cause whatever decisions I make will also have my yorkie in mind..I love her as well.

[LoveMyJake]

I'm not a breeder, but I am a yorkie owner. I have considered breeding, but as I started doing my research, I began to find that there is so much more involved than I realized. I have decided to leave the breeding to the experts, but I am still very interested in it. In my opinion, breeding should never be done for monetary gain. In reality, you don't make any money breeding when you consider all the cost and time that goes into it. I think breeding should only be done in a way to constantly strive to improve the breed. Only the very best dogs which have had the proper health screening should be bred. When I considered breeding, I wanted to breed only show quality dogs but didn't want to show, and I realized that showing is actually an important part of the breeding process. How else can you prove your lines?

I have seen a lot of people say they want to breed their dog so that the dog has the "experience" of being a mom. I think that's a ridiculous reason. I also don't like to see people breeding yorkies that are not within the standard. If breeding was left to the people who are trying to produce only the very best, just think how the breed would improve.

I think anyone new to breeding should try to get a mentor, someone who is experienced. That's the way I would go because experience is so valuable. I would never want to put a dog in danger by trying to breed myself, without the help of a mentor. I think I would find someone who would be willing to let me sit in on a birth to watch before I ever attempted it myself. I also don't like when people intentionally breed for "tinies" or when they breed a female that is too small. I don't like seeing people advertising "designer" dogs with high price tags.

To me, breeding is a huge responsibility, so I don't think it should ever be taken lightly, especially when breeding the smaller breeds like yorkies. Just being a yorkie owner, without breeding, takes up the majority of my time. I enjoy everything about my boys, and I put a lot of time and effort into them because I want them to be around for a very long time. Breeding is a full time job, IMO. It's more than just finding two dogs that might make cute puppies. There's so much research, learning and studying lines, etc. There's a lot more involved than people realize. And, there are so many things that can go wrong with these little dogs.

Another good way to learn is to go to shows and start talking to people there. They can give you lots of good advice, and you will see for yourself the quality of the dogs they are producing.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by Marc

This is the thing. I have read numerous threads here where a newbie (in terms of breeding) posts a thread with a question and they were jumped on. Yet, that is no different then when any breeder first started out. Why is that? Cause someone asks the question the breeders assume that is it an irresponsible person for wanting to breed? Yet that is exactly how you all started...with asking questions. Makes no sense to me. Why not lay down the risks and costs and offer help when needed instead of jumping on them?

Also, why is the breeders views on people who want their pet to have a litter or two as producing unwanted pets...when the breeder produces far more than just one or two litters?

Again, I'm not huffy...just asking. Oh lord...I really can't stress that I am just debating this and am not at my computer mad, lol.

The difference is quality and being responsible for the future of the breed. Do you know if your pet is going to produce yorkies that look like yorkies should? Will they have the proper angulation and be able to move the way that a yorkie should? Can you guarantee that there is no LS, LP, Legge Perthes or Collapsed Treachea in your pet's line? I back up my puppies because I have done my homework and will continue to do so. I am striving to produce dogs that will not only be healthy, loving pets but ones that will pass down the desirable traits to the next generation of yorkies. We can either breed willy-nilly and destroy this breed that those who have gone before us worked so hard to create or we can be responsible and insure that Yorkies remain popular because they are gorgeous and yet strong little terriers able to do a days work or cuddle in your lap. I love this breed and will not contribute to it's down fall, how about you?

[BakersDozen]

Since I dont yet own a Yorkie, I'm not going to comment....and also because my opinions are so varied on this topic. But I just have to pop in and say that, though it's true in many ways this is repeated information, I find this to be one of the most informative threads! Responses have been to the point and tactful at the same time, which makes it really easy to learn from and understand different points of view. I have gleaned some new ways of looking at things from this thread, and look forward to more. Thanks to everyone!

[Marc]

Originally Posted by BakersDozen

Since I dont yet own a Yorkie, I'm not going to comment....and also because my opinions are so varied on this topic. But I just have to pop in and say that, though it's true in many ways this is repeated information, I find this to be one of the most informative threads! Responses have been to the point and tactful at the same time, which makes it really easy to learn from and understand different points of view. I have gleaned some new ways of looking at things from this thread, and look forward to more. Thanks to everyone!

There ya go! That's what I'm takin' about! Glad you are learning things on either end of it. I'm happy I started the thread now.

[cesar49]

Originally Posted by Marc

First off...I do NOT want this thread to turn ugly, lol. I am posting this for debate and learning on both sides. I am not what you guys call a "breeder" nor am I what you guys call a "backyard breeder" at this time. I am a new owner of a female Yorkie and we may breed her at some point. For the purpose of learning and debate....I am going to assume and post as it would be that I am going to breed her.

I invite all "breeders" and "backyard breeders" and pet owners to post. Please, no need to get heated in here. Ha.

Ok, after reading some of the posts in the breeder section here I am a little confused about what is going on. The term "wanted and unwanted" pups is used alot when someone comes in here who wants to breed their "pet" Yorkie. I am curious...what makes your pups as a breeder wanted and my Yorkies pups unwanted? If I breed mine to another Yorkie then why would yours be more desired than mine?

Also, if I am a new owner and am interested in breeding her at some point...do my research and feel confident that I can do it...what makes that any different than you when you first started breeding?

Also, there is much talk from the "breeders" about unwanted pups from people who post as new owners and advice for them to go rescue one from the Humane Society or Sheter. Aren't you as "breeders" also contributing to the dog population? The same could be said of you....spay and neuter your Yorkies and go volunteer as a person who takes in placed females with their pups till they find homes for them. No? It seems that when you tell a newbie to go get one from the shelter to help with the overpopulation of dogs...and then you are breeding numerous litters a year....a bit odd, no?

And....after reading a few threads that "newbies" started for help...I see that the risks of breeding this breed and the potential costs come up. But if that pet owner did their research and are in full knowledge of the risks and cost....why does that still get the "breeders" goat? Everytime a "breeder" breeds her female she is at the very same risks and costs as the "newbie". Your female and her female are no different. What happens will happen to either.

Well, let's start there. Again, I am NOT in anyway heated...just looking to learn and debate this topic.

there are breeders of many different varieties.. the show breeders are convinced that they are the only ones who do it correctly..
hobby breeders appear to be next on the list... they dont show.. but are good breeders.. supposedly... then the uninformed and irresponsible breeders.. produce puppies, and then change their minds.. there are just as many shelter dogs and rescue dogs who are purebred as their are mixes... lots of big dogs at the shelters... small dogs are very popular
and the yorkies are the best....but there are no laws to protect these animals from being bred... just like most humans can have children.. but many should not.. bad breeders simply dont care if they hurt these dogs..
so sad....
it is true... all breeders should stop breeding if they are going to preach about getting a shelter dog...
having a plan is very important

[C C Kent]

I agree that this is a good debate and worth having, but I don't think it's just about breeding. I think in the larger sense it's about "situational ethics."

The early breeders developed different breeds to perform different tasks. A particular dog's value was determined by his ability to perform the task for which he was designed. In order to make this judgement correctly there was the need for a single standard, one by which all would be judged. For the breed to survive this standard must be respected, and protected. How we go about that is difficult at best.

The argument can be made to do almost anything we wish to do, no matter the long term detrimental effects, if we accept the situational ethics approach.

I believe that if we don't protect the dignity of those who depend on us, we have none of our own.

[Lexie Blue]

Thank you all for your input. I was/am a little confused about what makes a good breeder. I am a pet owner and that has always been my only intention, but I, too, want a Yorkie as close to standard as possible. With that in mind, I now appreciate those breeders who have made a great effort to ensure the Yorkie continues within the perimeter of the AKC standard that has been in place for many, many years.

[cesar49]

Originally Posted by C C Kent

I agree that this is a good debate and worth having, but I don't think it's just about breeding. I think in the larger sense it's about "situational ethics."


I believe that if we don't protect the dignity of those who depend on us, we have none of our own.

thats the responsibility part..... training and raising them
let the dog decide

[KYBLUE]

Originally Posted by Marc

So if a breeders pup has 3 pups at 1500 bucks a pup...that is 7500 dollars. The cost of the entire litter is say 800 bucks if no c-section is required. I'd say that the breeder is making a huge profit, no? What does it matter then if joe-blow makes a few bucks?

Again, I am playing the other side here...I'm not huffy, lol. Just throwing out the questions.

YOU NEED TO DO YOUR MATH 3X1500 IS 4500 NOT 7500
AND WHAT I STATED IS A LOW QUOTE AND NO I DO NOT MAKE A PROFIT
IT GOES FOR DOG FOOD AND FUTURE VET CARE OF MY OTHER DOGS IT IS NOT MONEY I CAN JUST THROW AWAY AND WHAT IF I HAVE TO REFUND A PUPS PRICE BECAUSE OF AN UNSEEN PROBLEM