Reputable Parti Breeders?

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by lisatodd

Let me know what you think about this study......


[COLOR="Red"]"Genetically the Yorkshire Terrier does NOT carry the piebald gene, which is what is needed for the large amounts of white coloring on any breed. The only way that gene could come into existance is for breedings to have occurred somewhere along the line with Maltese or Shih Tzu. My personal theory is that both are great possibilities.

The important issue we want to look at here is the SS which includes a description ot the Spotting gene. The information below is taken from Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of the Dog" The genetic makeup for the Yorkshire Terrier is:

asasBBCCDDEEGGmmSStt

Malcolm Willis book was written almost 20 years ago and during the last 20 years, new tests, studies and genetic information has come to light. It is thougth that the genetic makeup for the yorkshire terrier was asasBBCCDDEEGGmmSStt, but what you see in the yorkie and what may actually be, could be two different things?

Some of the information that you posted may be outdated and some of the information is speculation and opinions of the writer because the best known parti line is coming out of a show breeders line, a breeder who's been breeding and showing for 40 years. I have a 14 month old parti male, who is all Nikkos breeding, and was bred by the Nikkos breeder.

I like to use the following as food for thought: This illustration was drawn in the 1800's showing terrier type dogs at play, running at liberty and none wearing a chastity belt - most of the dogs pictured were thought to have been breeds who helped start the Yorkshire terrier breed. The picture depicts the Skye Terrier, the Scotch Terrier, the English Smooth Terrier, the Crossed Scotch Terrier, the Dandie Dinmont and the Bull Terrier. The Bull terrier and the crossed Scotch terrier are Parti colored. One of the early foundation dogs of our breed "Swift's Old Crab" was a crossed scotch terrier and even though "Old Crab" showed the accepted yorkie coloring, who knows what recessive genes he may have harbored (maybe he was a descendant of the parti colored crossed scotch terrier in the drawing?)

[Ashley V]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

My question is: Why are we only hearing people complain about the off colors of parti, red, chocolate and golden and no one has answered why there are not the same negative feelings about black/gold, black/tan and blue/gold off colors, since they are now just as "off colored" as the others are?

Could someone please honestly respond to my question?

I think you ask a very valid question and probably the reason no one has responded is because there is no answer and because you're right. I 100% agree. I rarely hear anything about those colors. It's always the parti, red, chocolate, and golden ones.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Are you all trying to get parties recognized as a breed itself, or a variation of color that qualifies to be shown. If it is it's own breed, wouldn't that cut all ties w/ the YTCA? Do you forsee AKC as requiring extensive genetic testing on original parti breeding stock to prove that they were from standard colored Yorkies? (To disprove the theory that there was Maltese or other breed blood intigrated?)

Sorry for bombarding you with questions, but honestly, I really appreciate your input on the subject. Like you said, many are afraid to come forward right now and it's not common that you find someone who HAS actually researched them and is actively working towards making them 'official,' for lack of better term and trying to get their program organized. (And it's even more unusual to be able to keep a thread civil long enough to be able to discuss it in a civil manner. ) Thanks for taking the time to share.

Extensive DNA testing was done by they AKC before they would allow them to be registered.

As far as our efforts to get them recognized, either as a breed of their own, or as a color variation by they YTCA, I think our chances are better to go the former route rather than the latter. LOL

We are currently trying to get as many parti breeders as possible to come forward and express their desires. I have been contacted by many interested people and I'm forming a database.

[YorkieRose]

For what is worth..here it is as I see it and many I know...

If you say a dog must be white, as in the Maltese breed..how many Maltese breeders are going to disagree as to what is white...I realize some Maltese are not a bright, clear white, due to grooming..but if you see a Maltese with any other color then white mingled in, it is obvious the dog is not correct...

This is not the case in Yorks....we still can not agree on what is true steel blue and gold..this is never more evident then a recent discussion on a forum.
A picture was posted...some saw black..others saw a dark steel, others thought correct, many thought not correct....and since a Yorkie is not born the color it will finally be as a mature adult, some want to wait and see if the color changes at maturity...see my point?

If you look at a line of enteries of Rotties..you see black dogs, no light black and dark black, greyish black, silvery black, if there is such a thing...but all the same black..same with a B/T Doxie..then look at a line of Yorkies enteries...you can not produce the exact same color on each one and say that is the perfect and only acceptable color...so we have to start by saying what is not correct..and Parti's, reds, chocolates are easy to agree on as not being correct...then we progress to correct blue...and since color in not that easy to nail down and reproduce 100% in each litter, we will forever be discussing this subject.

I have sat in the kennels of some the best names in the Yorkie world and seen Yorkies from silver to black and every shade in the middle...this is extremely hard to refine to a science...breeding dogs is an art anyway....

I looked on Nikko's site...she has a photo of her and Johnny Robinson, of course it is an antique...but my point is..I knew Johnny quite well. I loved Trivar structure, small ears, outgoing, sassy, cobby and compact..BUT I did not like color and texture.
He liked black or almost..to him that was a true steel that lasted 15 yrs...I got the best puppy litter from my Cookie Monster bitch and my Gator son...Johnny looked at the litter of 6...he told me to sell four..they were going to be too light. I could keep two girls and breed back to Cookie to improve the color. In his opinion he wanted me to sell the best colors..I felt four were ideal and that is where I got my good silk and color from for the future...we had to agree to disagree...

I think the Yorkie got too light for some years and breeders are doing a fantastic job with color...but we will never have a color all agree is correct..Yorkies are not Rotties or Doxies...

[lisatodd]

please tell me where i can read up on the new studies and tests. i have been very involved with genetics of dog breeds for the last two years, so if you can please let me know where i can read up on these new studies, i would really appreciate it.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I can answer or at least what I think...it would have to be it's own breed to be able to show because YTCA will not recognize a parti colored yorkie for the show ring. I don't think there would be the 2/3'ed's vote for that to happen. So to be recognized in the show ring it would have to go through AKC to be it's own breed and I know it takes ALOT and a long process to get a breed recognized. If I'm wrong please those with more knowledge let me know.

Donna Bird

Currently, I agree with you, but that could change at any time. I am sure that everytime anyone has stried to change the set standards for any breed of dog they have run into opposition from the parent club, but eventually things got changed. I am not a person that accepts defeat without giving it my all.

It is going to take time and it is going to take a large number of people. But it is not impossible.

Personally I don't care either way. I don't intend to show, I just want a standard to work towards. I believe that showing is all politics and that there are many good dogs overlooked for lesser dogs, because of the name of the kennel that it came from and/or the name of the handler. Therefore I do not believe in the validity of championship titles.

I'm not saying that these dogs are not quslity dogs, just that there are probably more quality dogs that do NOT have a chamionship title than those that do.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I understand your point and agree with you (I think ). I think that the problem you have is when you have people who breed the off colors just because they are "different" so that they will have something "rare." With no long term goals for the variance or efforts to do anything other than have a few 'odd' litters that they can sell quickly. And sadly, that happens alot. What I think gets to people sometimes is when the excuse "I'm working to get it recognized" is used as an excuse to try to prevent the breeder from being criticized. Sadly, that happens alot too.
For the people who ARE making a valiant, continuous effort and taking the time to understand the history of the parti (or any off color), trying to work with others to get a set standard, working towards the right to participate in shows either as a separate breed or color variation--those people who ARE trying are being dealt a great injustice by those who are just hiding behind their work and using the long term goals of others to hide behind while they try to produce something 'different' for a quick buck.
Just others trying to capitalize out of breeding dogs with little regard to the dogs themselves. That is why I applaud for people like Jeanie who are working hard for the partis and am so interested in knowing what steps they are taking as a coordinated effort to set themselves apart.

I agree, and I truely believe that if left to run amuck, the parti would soon become unrecognizable as a yorkie. and no matter what anyone says, they are STILL "YORKIES" and should look like yorkies with a color variation.

[YorkieRose]

PS...another problem is seeing statements like this on sites...one being, Little Paws kennel, Kansas

I quote.."We have been fortunate in the last several years to purchase standards and parti yorkies with some of the best bloodlines in the United States, they include Rothby, Clarkwyn, Melodylane, Nikko, Burgandy"...

If a breeder can only be considered reputable by placing all puppies on spay/neuter contracts, then these kennel must not be considered "reputable"..if the above claim is true.
Obviously, Nikko kennels has allowed many breeding dogs to be sold or none of their lines would exist outside of Nikko kennel..are they considered reputable? I know the answer, just making a point.

I agree, if a breeder does not want to take the chance of anyone breeding their line they must S/N..but then we called raked over the coals for not helping the serious breeder..a no win situation...

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Thanks Mary I knew someone would have the answer And I know the YTCA will not recognize a parti in the yorkie show ring so to answer Bama's question it would have to be seperate from the yorkie am I correct?

You can't possibly KNOW any such thing. Times change people change ideas change. It just takes patients, perseverance and persistence.

I imagine way back when, someone must have made the comment that "Yorkshire Terriers" would NEVER become a breed of their own. They were "broken haired Scottish Terriers" and would remain "Broken Haired Scottish Terriers" But look at them today.

Never say never

[YorkieRose]

Times may change, ideas may change, but the YTCA will not in any of our lifetimes...

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Good Morning and Happy New Year!

I think with Parti breeders like myself, Jeanie and Tammy, our first steps towards achieving our goals for the parti's is by educating people about the genes behind the color. We are trying to get people to understand how recessive genes work. Once there is a better understanding about the color, there will be more acceptance towards the color.

We do our research and we try to present facts. We study pedigrees and look for common links as to where some of the parti lines are cropping out of. We talk to other parti breeders and get their feedback and opinions. For us, we are just as passionate about this color, and striving to learn, and to educate and to improve the quality of our dogs, as the Yorkie Purists feel about their beautiful blue and tan dogs.

The Yorkshire terrier breed didn't begin over night, it took time and with the parti color only being eligible for registration for the last 5+/- years and many of the parti breeders still having young stock, it will take time for us to figure out the right way to gain acceptance in the ring.

Personally, I would like to see all the off colors that are currently being disqualified from the ring; black coats, the lighter blue coats, parti, golden and chocolates, to band together to form a "Rainbow" unit. I'd like to see all the off colors to be able to show in a color variation class as a Yorkshire terrier but time will tell what route we wind up taking. That's just my opinion ... and I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time ;-)

Thanks Sue. I was trying to say that but you're so much better with words, and have a much better understanding of all of this through your experience with horses.

It just isn't going to happen over night and to realize this is half the battle, because anyone who thinks it is going to be easy, will get discouraged in a hurry.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I've tried to answer the questions that I feel I can honestly answer but I've asked one question in this thread and in previous threads that have completely been avoided ....

My question is: Why are we only hearing people complain about the off colors of parti, red, chocolate and golden and no one has answered why there are not the same negative feelings about black/gold, black/tan and blue/gold off colors, since they are now just as "off colored" as the others are?

Could someone please honestly respond to my question?

I understand your frustration to feeling like your question(s) hasn't recieved a strait answer.

I would think the reason the off-color and the black/gold recieve a different reception is because it was only very recently that these colors were deemed 'unacceptable.' Until very recently they were considered standard. You have long standing pedigrees that have these colors variations heavily throughout. They can still be integrated into breedings to bring out desired richness in color and to correct colors that have strayed in an effort to achieve that perfect, standard that is accepted. I would think that as breedings progress, now that they are NOT accepted colors, you will see them being used less and less.
On the other hand, the partis, chocs, goldens, have NEVER been accepted colors. They can not be integrated back into breedings to try to acheive the standard.

At least, that is my take on why...just one opinion of many, I'm sure...

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by lisatodd

Let me know what you think about this study......


"Genetically the Yorkshire Terrier does NOT carry the piebald gene, which is what is needed for the large amounts of white coloring on any breed. The only way that gene could come into existance is for breedings to have occurred somewhere along the line with Maltese or Shih Tzu. My personal theory is that both are great possibilities.

The important issue we want to look at here is the SS which includes a description ot the Spotting gene. The information below is taken from Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of the Dog" The genetic makeup for the Yorkshire Terrier is:

asasBBCCDDEEGGmmSStt

S Self colour to totally pigmented surface si Irish spotting involving a few definite areas of white sp Piebald spotting sw Extreme-white piebald

Most breeds without white markings are SS but from time to time markings do appear and in general appear on toes, chest or muzzle. These marks can be present at birth and are lost during infancy. The ones that persist are not other s alleles but to minus modifiers at the S allele and will be limited to those minute amounts in those locations.

Irish spotting is also limited to certain areas of the body as the dominant S is, ruling out either gene in the makeup of Parti/Tri-Colors/Biewers. Limited to forehead, chest, belly, feet and tail tip.

Piebald shows much larger amounts of white on the dogs then the Irish spotting gene.

Extreme-white piebald is seen in those breeds which are white in color. As a result of this double carrier of swsw all other colors can be suppressed. (From Malcolm Willis "Genetics of the Dog")

So in essense, to have the white markings that are on the so called Parti-Color/Tri-Color/Biewer dogs, another breed had to have been in the mixture at some point. Since no one wants to admit this and in all honesty, it could be back far enough that no one is living any longer to admit to it, but unlikely that it is not much closer up. After some study of the current Biewer situation, which is somewhat the same situation, I've found they have both the Piebald gene and the Extreme-White Piebald gene. Some of the Biewer's are going almost solid white, which gives and indication of a couple different breeds.

Per Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of the Dog" When you read the genetic study of the Maltese, they have the Extreme-White Piebald gene.

Even though the genetic studies were not conducted on Shih Tzu, it is quite apparent that they are carrying the Piebald gene. Either or both could figure into the equation. The ones going white are heavy on the Extreme-White Piebald and the ones keeping color on the backs are of the Piebald inheritance. Either way, the mix wherever it happend, by accident or plan, this is NO longer a purebred Yorkshire Terrier.

In over 30 years of being involved in the sport and many Yorkshire Terrier champions, I have not had a Yorkshire Terrier with white. I find it interesting that the only ones coming up are the ones not bred by show exhibitors. A show exhibitor was getting them and had enough sense to realize there was more behind her breeding then just the Yorkshire Terrier and somebody had obviously done a breeding that was not pure Yorkshire Terrier. Otherwise the show exhibitors are not getting these white colored dogs.
Linda Bush a Yorkie show exhibitor of many champions was able to provide invaluable information on the show exhibitor and pedigrees which concludes who the culprit dog was in the past that started the parti/tri/Biewer in the US.

This is a wonderful breed, but breeds are controlled by standards and that is the way it should be. To be protected by breedings that can harm the breed. It has been posted publicly that there are inherent problems in these white colored dogs and a lot are not living past 7 or 8 years of age. This is also not a problem with Yorkshire Terriers. That genetic disorder has been brought into the breed they have created, with whatever other breed/breeds they have in their background. In doing research I have found that numerous breeds with white do have associated health issues.

It also is noted by some on websites of these breeders of parti's that you can NOT get parti's from 2 regular Yorkshire Terriers. Well then how did they get them in the 1st place? Susposedly they got them from 2 Yorkies. Yet this proves a contradiction itself. They acknowledge all parti's go back to a certain English dog. The one show exhibitor in the US that also was getting parti/tri's had breeding from the same kennel in England.

At this point I think the most important issue to look at is the fact that the Yorkshire Terrier only carries the SS gene, not the piebald gene which is needed for the white coloring.

Cher Hildebrand"

I believe it is a lot of poppycock. In the "Complete Yorkshire Terrier" it states that the maltese was most likey mixed with the yorkshire terrier, because at one time, the Maltese, and the Yorkshire Terriers were both part of the same group, "The broken haired Scottish Terrier" So being part of the same group it is not unlikely that they were bred together.

These people can preach about genetics all they want, but the plain and simple truth is, the gene is there and NO ONE has a clue as to where it came freom. It is all speculation.

And the First registered parti colords did indeed come from show breeders. In fact that would most likely be the case because show breeders as a common practice will do some close In breeding to produce their next champion.

The parentage of those first registered parti coloreds was tested repeatedly by the AKC and it was proven that Nikko's Mickey Spillane did come from Ch Rolls Royce Ashley.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

PS...another problem is seeing statements like this on sites...one being, Little Paws kennel, Kansas

I quote.."We have been fortunate in the last several years to purchase standards and parti yorkies with some of the best bloodlines in the United States, they include Rothby, Clarkwyn, Melodylane, Nikko, Burgandy"...

If a breeder can only be considered reputable by placing all puppies on spay/neuter contracts, then these kennel must not be considered "reputable"..if the above claim is true.
Obviously, Nikko kennels has allowed many breeding dogs to be sold or none of their lines would exist outside of Nikko kennel..are they considered reputable? I know the answer, just making a point.

I agree, if a breeder does not want to take the chance of anyone breeding their line they must S/N..but then we called raked over the coals for not helping the serious breeder..a no win situation...

Whether or not a reputable breeder would or would not breed a parti color is really no longer relevant. It's like closing the barn door after the bull got out, or in this case "kennel door" LOL

The fact is they are here they are yorkie and they are not going to go way.

I would think that instead of bashing those breeders, ones time would be better spent in working with the parti breeders to help them find a place of their own. Because they are here to stay, and this discussion can go on for the next 100 years and it is not going to change that fact.

[YorkieRose]

I did not see my post as bashing these breeders...if I was a Parti breeder I would not list breeders lines without asking..No, let me back up...I do not recall ever using the names of others kennels to make me look reputable..if you ask me what lines I have bred into, I will be happy to tell you...but to advertize your puppies are from lines other then your own without the breeders permission stinks IMO...

I have seen it happen so often...a puppy is from a line 3 or 4 genereations previous, but the seller has no problem stating the puppy is Durrers or Rothby..etc...there was a litter recently from the "famous" CC Higgins...talk about digging for gold...it had to be 4 or 5 lines back on the pedigree...

Lest anyone think I am bias to standards..I happen to have German Biewer myself..