Sire & Dam of litter have same Sire? - Page 3 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

LvMyYorki · 06-30-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorkville

I always tell the breeder the sex of the dog is no big deal. But deep down I think I want a boy most, which usually works out because they seem to be more available

My first/oldest is a male which is why I wanted his "companion" to be a female. I love him to BITS! I love my little girl too, but they have completely opposite personalities. My male is a sweetheart and just a lover, whereas Bunny has ATTITUDE galore!!!
I definitely agree that males are more readily available from a breeder that shows. It seems like its easier to finish a male when you look at the pedigrees.

Yorkville · 06-30-2005, 11:34 AM

So I got a response.
She seems very knowledgeable, I'm very confused on what road to take.

Please do not apologize for your concern, It is very important when purchasing a dog that it is healthy and that comes from healthy lines. The breeding of half brother and sister is considered line breeding and done quite often to obtain and retain the better quality of pups and future breeding stock. If line breeding were something that increased the chance for future problems in a dog it would not be a common practice among reputable breeders. I am very familiar with the lines of the dogs that I breed and would never jeopardize my reputation by selling puppies that were more at risk for future problems. Line breeding is how "we" have kept and improved the standards for many breeds, it is why Yorkshire Terrriers are no longer 15-20 pound dogs. It is how we maintain good temperaments, and so much more. I would not have a problem refunding your deposit if you are not comfortable purchasing this puppy, but I assure you that an educated line breeding is no more at risk for problems than a total out cross. Thank you

YorkieRose · 06-30-2005, 12:15 PM

I, agree 100%, an educated linebreeding is no more at risk for problems then an outcross...but this is not a linebreeding IMO..but we all differ.
If half siblings is considered linebreeding...what is inbreeding..there is only one combo closer..full sibs..I will ask a Can breeder I know..she has a degree in genetics.

Father/Daughter, Mother/son is called
back crossing"

brother/sister is the most intense inbreeding you can do.
Half siblings is called limited inbreeding

Linebreeding is some relationship between sire and dam...grandsire or granddam...tracing the pedigree back to a common relative.

Outcrossing is unrelated dogs.

If this breeder has followed every pup sold until at least 5 yrs and found no serious health issues, I would buy the pup with a one yr genetic guarantee...that should be given no matter the type breeding.

LvMyYorki · 06-30-2005, 12:51 PM

before Pat posted I looked it up in my book and it says that linebreeding is really very common just like your breeder states, but it seems like these are just too closely related to call it "linebreeding." She does sound very nice and very informative. I got a two year health guarantee from Bunny's breeder. If you really want one of her pups, ask her for the two year guarantee since the breeding is so close.

OR... have you spoken with the breeder from Edgewood to see if it will be possible to get a pup from one of her litters?

Stitches29 · 06-30-2005, 01:01 PM

I would trust the breeder's advice on YT.

YorkieRose · 06-30-2005, 01:04 PM

I would be interested to hear Cindy (Edgewood) opinion if this is considered a line or in breeding.
I have been reading alot of info on the internet today...the most common health issue caused by breeding too close is, loss of vigor. Dogs can be more prone to infections, viruses.. etc due to a compromised immune system. So to me that is worse then a physical deformity...like a bad bite or roach back. These problems come from recessive genes pairing up..but cause little or no health issues.

I was reading that in nature animals for the most part only inbreed when there is no other choice...well, I never knew that..how does an elephant or a tiger know who they are related to...I guess it is instinct.
Wolves do not inbreed and they are relatives of the dog..

lovefor3yorkies · 06-30-2005, 03:09 PM

The only problem I have with refunding somones deposit is that the pup that has been spoken for could've been sold instead of sitting "on-hold" for someone that didn't do their homework before the purchase. I think people need to realize they have to be responsible and if they decide they don't want a puppy, just be willing to bite the bullet. Most people are reasonable with their deposit practices. Now if someone said, I don't have a job to finish the payments, NOR care for the dog. I would offer them a full refund but, hey I decided I found another dog I like better, well you better get your deposit in becasue you are buying 2 dogs.

Yorkville · 06-30-2005, 03:11 PM

So as hard as it is going to be to get his little face out of my head I think I am going to pass on him

I actually got ahold of Cynthia and made an appointment to visit with her this week (thankfully she is not showing for a month so she has more free time and available puppies!)

Thanks for all your help and support guys, this was a REALLY tough decision but I now do not feel 100% comfortable and without the help from you guys I would not been able to do this.

lovefor3yorkies · 06-30-2005, 03:11 PM

YorkieRose--what exactly IS linebreeding?

Yorkville · 06-30-2005, 03:18 PM

lovefor3yorkies-
Trust me I did ALL the research (how many first time dog owners do you know that research pedigrees?)
I have crossed my t's and dotted my i's to ensure that I would get the healthiest dog possible.
It is more than fair for me to get my deposit back considering I just learned of this particular breeders "in-breeding" practices. Not that I am mad at her but I think breeders should give full disclosure of any possible underlying genetic possibilities.

LvMyYorki · 06-30-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovefor3yorkies

The only problem I have with refunding somones deposit is that the pup that has been spoken for could've been sold instead of sitting "on-hold" for someone that didn't do their homework before the purchase. I think people need to realize they have to be responsible and if they decide they don't want a puppy, just be willing to bite the bullet. Most people are reasonable with their deposit practices. Now if someone said, I don't have a job to finish the payments, NOR care for the dog. I would offer them a full refund but, hey I decided I found another dog I like better, well you better get your deposit in becasue you are buying 2 dogs.

I'm not a breeder so take my opinion for whatever its worth, but I think it would be one thing if someone just changed their mind for no reason, but that is not the case here. No one would expect that their puppy has been inbred. Yorkville has done her homework by asking for the pedigrees and that is how she found out about the breeding practices. She has not said an unkind word about this breeder, simply that she doesnt want a pup from such close breeding. I think that is extremely responsible of her. I am not trying to take sides, but I can tell you I researched pedigrees on my second Yorkie, but I didnt have a clue on my first. I thank my lucky stars that I just got lucky on the first go around. Besides Yorkies are sooo popular that I would think that it wouldnt be a problem placing pups that are bred to standard.

YorkieRose · 06-30-2005, 04:27 PM

I learned something today that I had long forgotten. When most of us think of inbreeding we think of physical deformities or neurological disease. Those defects are easy to see..but these are not the most common inbreeding problem..it is the decline of vigor..a breeder can honestly say they may have no deformed pups..but what about chronic ear infections, allergies, respiratory infections etc..
Of course unrelated parents can produce pups with these problems, but the inbreed pup is more inclined to be less vigorious...and the breeder may not attribute these problems as genetic..just a thought.

LvMyYorki · 06-30-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I learned something today that I had long forgotten. When most of us think of inbreeding we think of physical deformities or neurological disease. Those defects are easy to see..but these are not the most common inbreeding problem..it is the decline of vigor..a breeder can honestly say they may have no deformed pups..but what about chronic ear infections, allergies, respiratory infections etc..
Of course unrelated parents can produce pups with these problems, but the inbreed pup is more inclined to be less vigorious...and the breeder may not attribute these problems as genetic..just a thought.

What would YT be without you??? Great info as always Pat! Thank you for sharing!

feminvstr · 06-30-2005, 04:42 PM

Pat what would your call half/half???

Inbreeding is mother to son, father to daughter, brother to sister
Line breeding is grandfather to granddaughter, grandmother to grandson

then halfbrother/halfsister is "inline" breeding lol
I know that inline doesnt exist but sounded good to me

I know many breeders do very well with inbreeding halfs and I havent heard of any major health issues

My mother inbred a lot, I have seen first hand, the good the bad and the ugly! Risky very very risky, but you can yield some beautiful pups if done right!

YorkieRose · 06-30-2005, 04:58 PM

I think you hit on the real problem...when done right!! I would have to really trust the breeder to be honest about the line and would hope they followed the pups for a few years.
If there was no other way to get a quality puppy, then our hands would be tied..but as long as I have options I think I will linebreed..and many hobby breeders think that is nuts. Have you seen ads and the breeders states, "no in or line breeding "...
If you get a puppy with a problem, some vets are eager to ask to see a pedigree, then it is all the breeders fault..I am too old..LOL

06-30-2005, 12:15 PM	#33
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	breeding I, agree 100%, an educated linebreeding is no more at risk for problems then an outcross...but this is not a linebreeding IMO..but we all differ. If half siblings is considered linebreeding...what is inbreeding..there is only one combo closer..full sibs..I will ask a Can breeder I know..she has a degree in genetics. Father/Daughter, Mother/son is called back crossing" brother/sister is the most intense inbreeding you can do. Half siblings is called limited inbreeding Linebreeding is some relationship between sire and dam...grandsire or granddam...tracing the pedigree back to a common relative. Outcrossing is unrelated dogs. If this breeder has followed every pup sold until at least 5 yrs and found no serious health issues, I would buy the pup with a one yr genetic guarantee...that should be given no matter the type breeding.

06-30-2005, 12:51 PM	#34
LvMyYorki Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 1,181	before Pat posted I looked it up in my book and it says that linebreeding is really very common just like your breeder states, but it seems like these are just too closely related to call it "linebreeding." She does sound very nice and very informative. I got a two year health guarantee from Bunny's breeder. If you really want one of her pups, ask her for the two year guarantee since the breeding is so close. OR... have you spoken with the breeder from Edgewood to see if it will be possible to get a pup from one of her litters? __________________ Tara, Tino & Diva Bunny Diva Bunny: http://www.dogster.com/?141104 Rudolph Valentino: http://www.dogster.com/?76963

06-30-2005, 01:01 PM	#35
Stitches29 My Little Magwad Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 1,739	I would trust the breeder's advice on YT. __________________ "My Furkids" Maggie, Molly and Meme...

06-30-2005, 01:04 PM	#36
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	Edgewood I would be interested to hear Cindy (Edgewood) opinion if this is considered a line or in breeding. I have been reading alot of info on the internet today...the most common health issue caused by breeding too close is, loss of vigor. Dogs can be more prone to infections, viruses.. etc due to a compromised immune system. So to me that is worse then a physical deformity...like a bad bite or roach back. These problems come from recessive genes pairing up..but cause little or no health issues. I was reading that in nature animals for the most part only inbreed when there is no other choice...well, I never knew that..how does an elephant or a tiger know who they are related to...I guess it is instinct. Wolves do not inbreed and they are relatives of the dog..

06-30-2005, 04:27 PM	#42
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	inbreeding I learned something today that I had long forgotten. When most of us think of inbreeding we think of physical deformities or neurological disease. Those defects are easy to see..but these are not the most common inbreeding problem..it is the decline of vigor..a breeder can honestly say they may have no deformed pups..but what about chronic ear infections, allergies, respiratory infections etc.. Of course unrelated parents can produce pups with these problems, but the inbreed pup is more inclined to be less vigorious...and the breeder may not attribute these problems as genetic..just a thought.

06-30-2005, 11:34 AM	#32
Yorkville Donating Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 31	So I got a response. She seems very knowledgeable, I'm very confused on what road to take. Please do not apologize for your concern, It is very important when purchasing a dog that it is healthy and that comes from healthy lines. The breeding of half brother and sister is considered line breeding and done quite often to obtain and retain the better quality of pups and future breeding stock. If line breeding were something that increased the chance for future problems in a dog it would not be a common practice among reputable breeders. I am very familiar with the lines of the dogs that I breed and would never jeopardize my reputation by selling puppies that were more at risk for future problems. Line breeding is how "we" have kept and improved the standards for many breeds, it is why Yorkshire Terrriers are no longer 15-20 pound dogs. It is how we maintain good temperaments, and so much more. I would not have a problem refunding your deposit if you are not comfortable purchasing this puppy, but I assure you that an educated line breeding is no more at risk for problems than a total out cross. Thank you

06-30-2005, 03:09 PM	#37
lovefor3yorkies Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Graniteville, SC Posts: 206	The only problem I have with refunding somones deposit is that the pup that has been spoken for could've been sold instead of sitting "on-hold" for someone that didn't do their homework before the purchase. I think people need to realize they have to be responsible and if they decide they don't want a puppy, just be willing to bite the bullet. Most people are reasonable with their deposit practices. Now if someone said, I don't have a job to finish the payments, NOR care for the dog. I would offer them a full refund but, hey I decided I found another dog I like better, well you better get your deposit in becasue you are buying 2 dogs.

06-30-2005, 03:11 PM	#38
Yorkville Donating Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 31	So as hard as it is going to be to get his little face out of my head I think I am going to pass on him I actually got ahold of Cynthia and made an appointment to visit with her this week (thankfully she is not showing for a month so she has more free time and available puppies!) Thanks for all your help and support guys, this was a REALLY tough decision but I now do not feel 100% comfortable and without the help from you guys I would not been able to do this.

06-30-2005, 03:18 PM	#40
Yorkville Donating Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 31	lovefor3yorkies- Trust me I did ALL the research (how many first time dog owners do you know that research pedigrees?) I have crossed my t's and dotted my i's to ensure that I would get the healthiest dog possible. It is more than fair for me to get my deposit back considering I just learned of this particular breeders "in-breeding" practices. Not that I am mad at her but I think breeders should give full disclosure of any possible underlying genetic possibilities.

06-30-2005, 04:42 PM	#44
feminvstr Donating YT 4000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 4,405	Pat what would your call half/half??? Inbreeding is mother to son, father to daughter, brother to sister Line breeding is grandfather to granddaughter, grandmother to grandson then halfbrother/halfsister is "inline" breeding lol I know that inline doesnt exist but sounded good to me I know many breeders do very well with inbreeding halfs and I havent heard of any major health issues My mother inbred a lot, I have seen first hand, the good the bad and the ugly! Risky very very risky, but you can yield some beautiful pups if done right! __________________ Kimberly

06-30-2005, 04:58 PM	#45
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	breeding I think you hit on the real problem...when done right!! I would have to really trust the breeder to be honest about the line and would hope they followed the pups for a few years. If there was no other way to get a quality puppy, then our hands would be tied..but as long as I have options I think I will linebreed..and many hobby breeders think that is nuts. Have you seen ads and the breeders states, "no in or line breeding "... If you get a puppy with a problem, some vets are eager to ask to see a pedigree, then it is all the breeders fault..I am too old..LOL