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Old 05-09-2014, 07:14 AM   #106
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The three points you make pstinard could apply to meat or any food source in general, could they not? In response to each point I will say this:

1. Antibiotics can contaminate feed lots, period. This means that the meat, the bone, or the byproducts of the animals could be contaminated just as the meat and bone meal could. So finding a product w/o meal doesn't eliminate this first point of contention.

2. As you correctly point out, dogs with true food allergy are rare, with less than 10% of dogs having a true food allergy. Those rare dogs are usually placed on food elimination trials with home cooked ingredients or foods that are marketed for this issue. Since most dogs have food intolerance and not allergy, using a more restricted product that is OTC may indeed resolve the symptoms.

3. Mad cow disease. This gets back to the whole feed lot problem, and the food system as a whole. Eliminating bone meal from the mix doesn't address this larger problem nor eliminate its risks. I personally try to avoid eating CAFO animals but it's not always possible to do.

Since I believe I had heard that you are a corn geneticist by training, and not a veterinary nutritionist, I will be looking for your thoughts on GMO corn. I don't eat corn, but my dogs do, and I think it is a quality ingredient for them. They find it palatable especially with a little butter on it mixed with their meats.

As for Rebecca Remillard, she has gone over and beyond for me and my dogs....in fact, she is consulting on a case right now for my Teddy and is not charging me for the additional advice or dietary recommendations. She has done the same for other dogs here who were not at all doing well and she found solutions where other specialists could not. So she has earned my trust and I have the utmost respect for her. It will be a sad day for veterinary medicine and pet owners when she retires but she will definitely have left her mark on me and I could never thank her enough for her dedication and skills that saved the life of my dog Daisy.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:17 AM   #107
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So, in summary, I take the good and the bad from all sources and form my own opinion, and that's all I'm asking people to do. As far as Purina and Blue Buffalo go, I feed my cat Purina One (which contains named ingredients as its main ingredients) and I feel Bella Blue Buffalo (which also contains named ingredients as its main ingredients).
That's basically what I do too. No one company is going to be perfect, no one food is going to be good for all dogs, and no one doctor is going to have the answers to everything. I would have no problems feeding most of the Purina One formulas or Purina Pro Plan formulas, depending on how my dog does on them of course. Blue Buffalo? To be honest, *I* personally wouldn't touch it, but that doesn't mean some dogs don't do great on it.

I saw a question in the thread and now I can't find it but it was about Purina and it's 'hypocrisy' because they use some of the ingredients that they are complaining BB uses, but I believe the reason is because Purina isn't trying to hide the fact that there's corn or wheat in their food. It would be VERY bad for a dog who has issues with any of those ingredients and an owner thinking they're not feeding them. So it's a pretty big deal if BB does end up testing for these ingredients, IMO.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:40 AM   #108
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The three points you make pstinard could apply to meat or any food source in general, could they not? In response to each point I will say this:

1. Antibiotics can contaminate feed lots, period. This means that the meat, the bone, or the byproducts of the animals could be contaminated just as the meat and bone meal could. So finding a product w/o meal doesn't eliminate this first point of contention.

2. As you correctly point out, dogs with true food allergy are rare, with less than 10% of dogs having a true food allergy. Those rare dogs are usually placed on food elimination trials with home cooked ingredients or foods that are marketed for this issue. Since most dogs have food intolerance and not allergy, using a more restricted product that is OTC may indeed resolve the symptoms.

3. Mad cow disease. This gets back to the whole feed lot problem, and the food system as a whole. Eliminating bone meal from the mix doesn't address this larger problem nor eliminate its risks. I personally try to avoid eating CAFO animals but it's not always possible to do.

Since I believe I had heard that you are a corn geneticist by training, and not a veterinary nutritionist, I will be looking for your thoughts on GMO corn. I don't eat corn, but my dogs do, and I think it is a quality ingredient for them. They find it palatable especially with a little butter on it mixed with their meats.

As for Rebecca Remillard, she has gone over and beyond for me and my dogs....in fact, she is consulting on a case right now for my Teddy and is not charging me for the additional advice or dietary recommendations. She has done the same for other dogs here who were not at all doing well and she found solutions where other specialists could not. So she has earned my trust and I have the utmost respect for her. It will be a sad day for veterinary medicine and pet owners when she retires but she will definitely have left her mark on me and I could never thank her enough for her dedication and skills that saved the life of my dog Daisy.
Point (1) Well yes, to a certain degree, but animals of unknown provenance are more likely to be problematic. Take the recent example of horse meat cropping up in food for human consumption. Besides the issues of truth in labeling, the problem isn't with horse meat per se, it's with using euthanized animals that may have been shot up with pain killers or other medicines before they died. I would love to try horse meat, but I wouldn't want to eat Secretariat.

We're in agreement on point 2.

And basically we're in agreement on point 3 .

And I would indeed trust Dr. Remillard when it comes to specialized diets. If you haven't read her article on home cooking that I linked to, inbox me with your email address and I'll send you the PDF--it's a great article! I was just puzzled by her apparent support for the use of unnamed meat sources. That may be a misunderstanding on my part, so I'll wait to see if she writes back.

Okay, now about GMO corn. Yes, you remembered right, I'm a corn geneticist by profession . Non-GMO corn is a good food ingredient for animals that aren't allergic to it. GMO corn is okay to eat currently, but it could add some additional allergens since it contains new proteins that didn't previously exist in corn. Probably not a major issue, but it could be for a few animals. It's theoretically possible to engineer a corn that would be more toxic to consume, but it would be difficult, if not impossible, to slip it past regulatory agencies. Still, it's a good idea for the public to be aware of what traits are being engineered into the corn that they are eating, in the unlikely event of problems down the line. As for me, I haven't gone out of my way to eat non-GMO corn yet, or to take it out of my pets' food.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:47 AM   #109
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I saw a question in the thread and now I can't find it but it was about Purina and it's 'hypocrisy' because they use some of the ingredients that they are complaining BB uses, but I believe the reason is because Purina isn't trying to hide the fact that there's corn or wheat in their food. It would be VERY bad for a dog who has issues with any of those ingredients and an owner thinking they're not feeding them. So it's a pretty big deal if BB does end up testing for these ingredients, IMO.
Good point about the food allergies. It's always bad when foods test positive for ingredients that they are not supposed to contain. Purina hasn't proven anything (yet), so we'll see how this works out. Maybe ALL commercial dog foods should be tested for truth in labeling.
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:04 AM   #110
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Oh never mind.......
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:06 AM   #111
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Oh geez. I just looked and now she's gone.
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:48 AM   #112
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Oh geez. I just looked and now she's gone.
Very strange.
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Old 05-09-2014, 03:54 PM   #113
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Anyone ever listen to THIS? OMG this guy is amazing...he mentions his research team. Hmmm....headed by him? For $20 bucks/year he will give you a special list....and you only have 30 minutes to decide or the price goes up.
Yeah...he's in this just because he wants to help people and their pets. Pfffffft

Editor's Choice Dog Food Recommendations | Dog Food Advisor
OMG that video was annoying, so boring, and what the hell with all the red. Can't show his face huh?
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Old 05-09-2014, 04:39 PM   #114
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OMG that video was annoying, so boring, and what the hell with all the red. Can't show his face huh?
It is really bad, isn't it? But that pitch at the end fried me.
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:48 AM   #115
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There is not degree to be earned anywhere in dog nutrition. Vet's can study animal nutrition outside their regular studies but are not given more than one semester in ANIMAL nutrition in veterinary college.

We have many pet food companies that hire veterinarians to work for them. Anyone at any level who is paid by a company is going to represent the company's best interest first. The kind of thing "the dentist" points out about pet foods are things that are common knowledge. The ingredients and the kind of side effects certain ingredients have been found to cause are easy enough to find. The fact that it is a dentist that puts the information together for people to read for themselves means nothing. They are simply facts that anyone can make their own decisions about.

I would guess that few of us here went to school and for any length of time to lean how to cook for ourselves and our families although I'm sure many of of us have read up on human nutrition at one time or another. Are humans less complicated to feed than dogs?

If anyone is interested in learning more about the pet food industry from some people who have invested a lot of time and money investigating the industry and how it works with the FDA here is a link to a good website:
Purina Sues Blue Buffalo | Truth about Pet Food
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Old 05-10-2014, 08:30 PM   #116
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Veterinary nutritionists possess not only veterinary training but they have advanced training in nutrition. They often have doctorates in animal science and nutrition. So there is a degree in dog nutrition, it's called animal nutrition and it's a doctorate. I'm sure there are masters' and bachelors level programs as well.

As for most people knowing about nutrition, that's sadly just not true as I look around and see sick and supersize.... people who struggle to be healthy and lose weight and they struggle because they just don't know how to eat. They do what they have been told by sophisticated marketing campaigns.

Feeding dogs is easy - they are opportunistic scavengers that will eat just about anything. There are some people who feed their dogs out of a garbage can and they do ok! I prefer to reach out to experts, and I'm humble enough to know when someone knows more than I do. I don't feel stupid for reaching out for help and those who mock the use of specialists just make themselves look like fools. They just don't know what they don't know.

As for the dog food advisor, well, he isn't for me.
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Old 05-10-2014, 09:13 PM   #117
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There is not degree to be earned anywhere in dog nutrition. Vet's can study animal nutrition outside their regular studies but are not given more than one semester in ANIMAL nutrition in veterinary college
Might wanna check this out and read the first q and a Frequently Asked Questions American College of Veterinary Nutrition
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:57 AM   #118
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General vets are just that...general vets. They don't profess to be specialists in nutrition. That does not mean they have zero knowledge about nutrition. For specialized nutrition advice, I use veterinary nutritionists who DO have advanced knowledge and do have degrees in animal nutrition.

As to the DFA, I will take my vet's advice on nutrition any day over his. If a case is complicated, she is the first one to send me to a specialist. DFA is not for me either. His qualifications, in my opinion, are less than a general vet. Just my opinion.
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Old 05-11-2014, 07:31 PM   #119
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Default Lookey Lookey.....

Here is the complaint that Purina filed against Blue. I'm only about 2/3 of the way through it, but had to stop to make myself some snacks and feed PURINA to my dogs. Who knew that Hill's also had issues with Blue.... Very interesting read.... What do you all think??

http://consumermediallc.files.wordpr...ue-buffalo.pdf
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Old 05-11-2014, 07:55 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by 107barney View Post
Here is the complaint that Purina filed against Blue. I'm only about 2/3 of the way through it, but had to stop to make myself some snacks and feed PURINA to my dogs. Who knew that Hill's also had issues with Blue.... Very interesting read.... What do you all think??

http://consumermediallc.files.wordpr...ue-buffalo.pdf
This all reminds me of this SNL skit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkbiJYU4CNI

hahaha!

I've never liked BB and honestly this all just confirms my original thoughts.

I just hope it doesn't turn really nasty because I could see BB trying to bring Purina down too... but I think this could overall be a really good step for the pet food industry. So many of them rely on marketing teams to sell a product. Consumers are slowly and surely becoming more aware in general so we'll see.
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