Mill argument

[Brett]

Please do not mistake this post that I agree with the mistreatment of animals.

First let me state my views on the proper treatment of animals.

I love animals. Always have and always will. However, I believe that pets are pets and should be treated as such. They should not be dressed up on a regular basis as if they were a person. An occasional shirt on a college game day or holiday should be accepted; however, I don't think that one's pet should consume his or her entire life. I think it is completely ridiculous for one to revolve their life around their dog. Pets are great for companionship and fun to play with. I also believe that animals used for breeding should be well exercised, nourished, vaccinated and not over bred. If the breeder follows those four things, but doesn't treat the dog as if it were their only child, does not make it a bad breeder. It simply means that they are doing it as a business venture and are treating it as such.

OK Kelly and I got into an argument over what a "puppy mill" really is. She sees Bentley as part of the family and loves devoting her entire day to him. In doing so she seems to have joined this yorkie forum bandwagon of, classify nearly every breeder as a mill, shut them down, and lock them up.

The reason Kelly and I even had this argument is because she is wanting another puppy and worried about it being from a "puppy mill". I said to her, "so, if this lady has 30 dogs that makes her a puppy mill?" Her response to me was "yes” I then said, "so having 30 dogs makes you a bad breeder?" Her response was again "yes, because you honestly think that she gives enough attention to those dogs?" I said if that was her only source of income I could see her devoting enough time to the dogs to make sure they were properly taken care of i.e. exercise, nutrition, and vaccination. When I asked why people wouldn't buy these puppies to rid them of these horrible conditions she informed me that I "didn't understand and I needed to do research on it."

"I don't understand"? What's there to not understand? Why not buy these puppies to take them into a home? It would insure that they would not be kept to be over bred when they reached maturity.

This brings me to my thoughts on what a "puppy mill" actually is. I don't agree with everyone protesting "puppy mills". It is true that animals are living creatures and deserve to be treated in a humane manor. What I do question is what people will actually classify a "puppy mill" to be. A mill is "a machine or device that reduces a solid or coarse substance into pulp or minute grains by crushing, grinding, or pressing" (dictionary.com mill ) This is what the breeders are doing to the dogs. Reducing them (in health) by over breeding to produce the most puppies insuring the most profit. If you would ask me if I thought this was wrong, my immediate answer would be most definitely.

I don't believe there is such thing as a "puppy mill". However, I do believe that there are terrible breeders out there mistreating dogs. A person having 30 dogs does not classify them as a bad breeder as long as they provide their dogs with sufficient nutrition and exercise, as well as keeping them up to date on their vaccinations and breeding them sufficiently but not over doing it. What if a breeder had 3 females and one male and kept them each in their own 3x3 cage, fed them sufficient food and kept their vaccinations up to date but bred every cycle the females had? That would make them a very bad breeder.

I believe that these two classifications of breeders (good and bad) should be used to describe a place where puppies can be purchased. People should just not assume that because a breeder has 30 dogs they are automatically classified as a "puppy mill". People need to desensitize themselves from this happy-go-lucky world of spoiled dogs that wear clothes and that have human tendencies, and remember that they are pets and should be treated as such. People should breed the dogs, but do so in a humane manor.

Just thought I could get some well thought out arguments by throwing some spice on the board.

Brett

[lycansmom]

well that is some food for thought to say the least after my experience with luna i must say i am going to be more careful in the future

[Kelz]

someone please explain this to him..i tired and i swear all he hears is blah blah blah... haha and then i just get mad and want to be like.. That's it!! your sleepin on the COUCH!!

[lycansmom]

but honestly he is right to a point...i think the definition of a puppymill is different to everyone...For me its a breeder who has to many dogs in poor conditions and just keep mass reproducing

[Brett]

Originally Posted by lycansmom

but honestly he is right to a point...i think the definition of a puppymill is different to everyone...For me its a breeder who has to many dogs in poor conditions and just keep mass reproducing

That is the point I was making....And that is how Kelly sees it too. It appears that there was somewhat of a misunderstanding between the two of us. Where we disagree is that she believes that breeders should treat their dogs the way we treat Bentley. I would disagree with her on this because they are dogs used for breeding not as pets. I am not saying that they should be treated badly; however, it is not sane to allow all of your dogs that you breed to sleep with you and take with you on vacation. Kelly did just make the comment that 30 yorkies would be a wonderful thing to have as pets. Guess who is sleeping on the couch now haha.

[lycansmom]

well glad you 2 could work it out....

[ingallsra]

Brett, I think your opinion is well thought out, and I agree with you. I love my animals dearly, and even put jackets and T-shirts on my dogs sometimes. But like you said they are still animals. Hopefully people will take time to really read you post and think about it and respond with thier own ideas, not emotion.

[eensor]

If you want to see pictures of an actual puppy mill, there are sites that you can visit to do so. www.puppymillrescue.com is one. I personally don't think all breeders with lots of dogs are necessarily puppy mills. It depends on the condition and treatment of the dogs.

[red98vett]

No offense - but a PUPPY MILL DO Exist and they DO Grind up those poor dogs. Maybe not literally but you just go visit some websites and see those poor faces and those HORRIBLE CONDITIONS and you may change your mind. Their STATE OF MIND is ground up and destroyed just like they destroy them when they are of no use to the EVIL Owners of Mills.

The are far too many MASS BREEDING Facilities - they ARE Puppy Mills. When I got my very first Cocker Spaniel 10 years ago we were in what I now classify as a MILL....It was FULL of over 200 barking sad negelected cockers and though at the time I had NO CLUE what I was seeing and never heard of mills before - I was crying for all those poor dogs. They were totally MISERABLE.

You're sadly mistaken if you think Mills are figments of peoples imaginations - they are a sad reality and stopping the sales of puppies in Pet Stores can put a dent in that evil business - but I'm also sad to know that they will probably always exist in some form until people are severly punished for mis-treating animals.

ps...there are all kinds of pet owners - many of us consider them family members and are treated as such...My girls LOVE wearing clothes but I don't force them to do this - I see happy faces when I dress them - it's not only for my enjoyment - it's for warmth in the winter and cuteness in the summer.

Many people consider pets as pets - that's fine too - as long as they take care of them I'm sure they're happy pets - but I think those of us with yorkies who treat them special have REALLY happy little dogs....I wouldn't change how I treat my girls for anything. Since my kids are grown - it's like having small children again and I just love it. So do they.

[red98vett]

Oh...and your puppy is ADORABLE by the way - I meant no offense by my post - really I didn't....but I do wonder after seeing your avatar picture - is a BOW in your cute puppies hair not considered dressed up ? ..I think we all want them to look cute - clothes and bows are part of that -

I know they can live without it all - but it IS fun seeing your puppy with a little bow isn't it ?...now in COLD states - clothes are functional as yorkies tend to feel the cold weather - What state do you live in ? As I'm in Houston - my girls hardly wear clothes in the summer - unless we go out - but in the winter T-Shirts and sweaters really do keep them warm.

I also think a breeder CAN have 30 dogs and be a good breeder depending on how many people are caring for that amount of dogs. A BAD breeder will simply keep them in cages and not have the time or energy to care for them and only sees them as a way to make money.

CARING breeders may have lots of dogs. A good friend of mine has 12 females and you should see how well cared for they are. She just showed me a picture after coming home from a groomer with ALL of them - talk about happy & beautiful yorkies...that picture alone would change your mind on breeders.

Please visit some puppy mill websites - do a search on STOP Puppy mills - read and maybe re-think your views ?

[troubletb]

Villette, He didn't say that "Mills are figments of peoples imaginations" He just said that he didn't feel that a person with 30 breeding dogs that took care of their animals were not always a Mill!! I understand what he is talking about and I tend to agree with him, There are a few breeders out there (not many)that have more than one breed and own many dogs, but all their dogs are taken very good care of. I don't think this type of person is a mill.. Just my opinion

We all know that MILLS do exist and they need to be STOPPED!

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by troubletb

Villette, He didn't say that "Mills are figments of peoples imaginations" He just said that he didn't feel that a person with 30 breeding dogs that took care of their animals were not always a Mill!! I understand what he is talking about and I tend to agree with him, There are a few breeders out there (not many)that have more than one breed and own many dogs, but all their dogs are taken very good care of. I don't think this type of person is a mill.. Just my opinion

I did understand him - He stated he didn't think there was such a thing as a puppy mill ....3rd para from end of post

on the "Figment of peoples imagination" - those were MY words - I just got the impression he didn't think there were really mills out there and there are far too many to count.....and I agree - I don't think every breeder is a mill with 30 breeding dogs either - to me...a Mill is operated by someone who only sees dogs as profit and has no feelings for them at all. Maybe I came on too strong - I do apologise for that - I really get going on puppy mills and just want the world to be aware of them.

[lycansmom]

i think we all have STRONG opinions on this subject and maybe we should just let it go

[red98vett]

lol..I for one am NOT upset ...I hope I sounded ok....because I really did understand his feelings - I just feel many people really don't know about true mills. These are the great kind of threads that may educate someone who was just like me 10 years ago and had no CLUE that mills exist.

Now that I look back on being in that breeders place where we got Tessa ....I realize she is a puppy Mill Cocker Spaniel

[txshopper73]

V- I agree with you 100%. The first thing Brett brought up was the clothes and accessories. Mine throw a fit if I put a bow in their hair but if I had dogs that would let me, I'd dress mine up to. I think that it is absoltely precious to see dogs dressed up and to know that their humans took the time to pick out such fashions shows that they are thought of as family!

Secondly, yes, puppy mills do exist. When we got our GSP, the guy had around 20 breeding females and they were all tied up with puppies running everywhere. He did all of his own shots. If you think about it, someone with that many dogs isn't necessarily going to take each and every one to a vet. It would cost too much to vaccinate each pup along with worming. When a breeders owns that many dogs, think about it, the more they go to the vet, the less of a profit they will make on each pup.

Brett's wife brought up the socializing issue. When someone has that many dogs, do you honestly think that they're spending quality time with their dogs? That breeder could spend 1 hour a day with each dog...there's just not enough time. Dogs need to be socialized or else they have the chance of becomming aggressive. Just read some of the stories here of people that have purchased dogs from mills or pet stores and the yorkies have become so aggressive that they end up wanting to get rid of the dog.

To you, dogs are just dogs and should be treated as such. What about the husbands and wives that can't produce children? I sold a pup to a couple that had been married for over 15 years and never was able to have kids. These "dogs" are their children. Don't condemn all people that like to dress up their dogs because you don't know the full story.

Just my two cents!