Yorkie Splash and Shine~THUMBS DOWN!

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Where have you "been told" that natural shampoos will be more watery? I tried to find a reference to that, and am really curious. I have used other natural shampoos (human and pet) that are rich and thick. The only places I have actually read that natural shampoos are always a watery consistency are posts from Yorkie Splash and Shine Shampoo. I am wondering what defines a "natural" shampoo too. For instance, if you look at the ingredients in Espree Hypo-Allergenic Coconut Shampoo -- they are all natural. The cleaners are coconut, it also contains Jojoba and Aloe Vera. It is even a naturally tearless product, meaning they don't add a chemical to make it tearless like some (think Johnson's baby shampoo) instead, it is tearless because of the gentle natural ingredients. Espree Hypo-Allergenic Coconut Shampoo is rich and thick -- so much so that you can actually use it full strength or water it down yourself (16 parts water to 1 part shampoo). I just found an older bottle of (human) Jason's Natural Jojoba shampoo in my bathroom. It is all natural ingredients (sulfate-free) and it is very thick too. I actually had not been using it because it gave my hair a little too much fullness. I already have the world's thickest hair. It was lasting forever, as only a dime or so blob was needed, so I just stopped using it. Just wondering about the natural = watery idea......

The watery-er (?) consistency actually does mean that it is watered down. Not necessarily that it was ever a thicker product for sale, but water is still the main ingredient. Just more of it, in the watery formulas. So watered down in the making, not after the fact. Some seem to like the watery consistency, even prefer it, but it does mean you are buying more water. I like the thicker, richer formulas, and then I can water them down if I want to, to make rinsing easier.

I never tried the sheen. I do like a good daily spray for brushing. Smart of her to offer it. Glad you found it works well. A good daily brushing/refreshening spray is vital.

Just saw this thread

Thanks everyone for posting your opinions.

First, I am not a miracle maker. I just made a shampoo that I like and friends used it and liked it, so I started selling it. No shampoo is perfect. That's why I made a shampoo I like - I hated everything I tried, even Minksheen, and I read sooo many great reviews about it.

Anyway, I want to address the watery consistency issue. There is no water added to our shampoo. It is "thin" because there is nothing added to make it thicker. I have come up with a thicker formula, but I am not sure I want to introduce it. the only difference in ingredients is the addition of Vegetable Gum / Glycerin Extract - and while it doesn't make the shampoo THICK, it does make it a bit thicker.

Second, there are no regulations on the labeling of pet grooming products. So, there is no guarantee that a label is accurate. It's up to the manufacturer to list ingredients, but no one checks them and they aren't even a requirement.

I haven't been able to find an ingredients list for the Espree Hypo-Allergenic Coconut Shampoo shampoo you mentioned. But, I can say that, other than the fragrance added to our shampoo, it is 100% USDA certified organic.

As far as the coat texture, some people really don't like the initial reaction. The pH of our shampoo is very high (around 9) and most shampoos are much less than that. So, it does take a bit of getting used to for the coat, especially when many are used to being bathed in shampoos with a pH of around 6.

Thanks for all the comments! I know I can't please everyone, but I am glad to see that everyone feels comfortable posting their thoughts!

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

Anyway, I want to address the watery consistency issue. There is no water added to our shampoo. It is "thin" because there is nothing added to make it thicker.

You do not put water in your shampoo? That is very different as water is the first ingredient on every shampoo I have checked, of the ones that actually list their ingredients anyway. In fact found this online:
"Water --
The primary ingredient in all shampoos is water, typically making up about 70-80% of the entire formula. Deionized water, which is specially treated to remove various particles and ions, is used in shampoos. The source of the water can be underground wells, lakes, or rivers."

You may be using a product that already contains water,?? but it surely has water in it or it wouldn't be so .... well watery. Finding this curious.

Thanks for being so diplomatic in accepting that we did not all have the same experience with your shampoo. To be fair, there is a human shampoo site that gives reviews that all contradict each other too. There are just so many other varibles, probably our own water supply making the most difference in how a shampoo reacts. I do applaud your work to come up with a special formula to meet a need you had and that others have enjoyed as well.

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

You do not put water in your shampoo? That is very different as water is the first ingredient on every shampoo I have checked, of the ones that actually list their ingredients anyway. In fact found this online:
"Water --
The primary ingredient in all shampoos is water, typically making up about 70-80% of the entire formula. Deionized water, which is specially treated to remove various particles and ions, is used in shampoos. The source of the water can be underground wells, lakes, or rivers."

You may be using a product that already contains water,?? but it surely has water in it or it wouldn't be so .... well watery. Finding this curious.

Thanks for being so diplomatic in accepting that we did not all have the same experience with your shampoo. To be fair, there is a human shampoo site that gives reviews that all contradict each other too. There are just so many other varibles, probably our own water supply making the most difference in how a shampoo reacts. I do applaud your work to come up with a special formula to meet a need you had and that others have enjoyed as well.

In our shampoo, organic oils are soaponified with a strong base (lye) to produce soap. Maybe the types of shampoos you are referring to are those that contain man-made chemicals? Our shampoo is an aloe castille soap.

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

In our shampoo, organic oils are soaponified with a strong base (lye) to produce soap. Maybe the types of shampoos you are referring to are those that contain man-made chemicals? Our shampoo is an aloe castille soap.

Lye is added to water in the soaponification process, so, looking at it from that perspective, you are right. But, I don't consider that water, since the resultant reaction changes the water into CH20 and OCH2.

I think what I thought you meant was that I made soap and diluted it with water (since that's what the OP suggested).

[FlDebra]

I understand, you mean no direct water is added. Looked up the saponifying process and found that it basically makes soap, water and glycerine. That probably is part of the water content.
"Soap is made by saponifying a fat or oil with a strong alkali. A fat or oil is a triglyceride, which means that three fatty acids of various carbon lengths are attached to a glycerine backbone. The strong alkali is either sodium (for bars) or potassium (for liquids) hydroxide. The saponification process is a simple one-step reaction with no waste generated: the glycerine is split off from the fatty acids, and the fatty acids combine with the sodium or potassium to form soap, while the hydroxide forms water. The result is soap, glycerin and water (no alkali remains). "
More water would be in the Aloe Vera as it is normally 96% water. You don't really have to add pure water to have a water content. Almost any liquid winds up having water as a basic ingredient. Sort of like looking at dog food ingredients. Most canned food lists water as the first ingredient. Some of the premium dog foods don't list water but they do list chicken broth -- that is mostly water.

I did wonder about the high Ph for the shampoo. It is unusal for the ph to be that high for a dog shampoo. Why did you decide on that and how does it not have detrimental effects? Since you researched I know you have a reason behind this. Just thought I would ask. Too high of a ph is said to have harmful side effects, strip away some of the necessary oils on a dog's skin, and leaving a dog with dry, irritated skin, causing extra itchiness and scratching. Too high of a ph can weaken the hair by breaking the disulfide bonds in hair keratin.

Referenced from: About Dog Shampoo | DailyPuppy.com

Another site discussed making your own dog shampoo but cautioned that when using Ivory dish detergent (with a ph of 9.5) as one of the ingredients, you must add: 2 teaspoons of white vinegar along with the required teaspoon of glycerin. This will bring the pH down to 6.8 which is well within the realm of a dog’s skin.
Dog shampoo-Make your own, easy & inexpensive[B]

I brought up that last example as it is close to the Ph of 9 you shampoo has and they are recommending adding vinegar to bring the ph down to 6.8. Not that I want to make my own shampoo with Ivory. Thanks!

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

I think what I thought you meant was that I made soap and diluted it with water (since that's what the OP suggested).

No, I said, "The watery-er (?) consistency actually does mean that it is watered down. Not necessarily that it was ever a thicker product for sale, but water is still the main ingredient. Just more of it, in the watery formulas. So watered down in the making, not after the fact. " so that it was clear I did not think you were just adding water to a finished product. I know you are putting your heart into your product.

I think I am getting bogged down with too much water talk now. I am diluting my own conversation.

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

No, I said, "The watery-er (?) consistency actually does mean that it is watered down. Not necessarily that it was ever a thicker product for sale, but water is still the main ingredient. Just more of it, in the watery formulas. So watered down in the making, not after the fact. " so that it was clear I did not think you were just adding water to a finished product. I know you are putting your heart into your product.

I think I am getting bogged down with too much water talk now. I am diluting my own conversation.

LOL

The pH of a dog's skin is about 7, while the pH of human skin is about 5.5 - it is my understanding that most shampoos have a pH of about 5.5 to 6.5. And, most shampoos make no mention of pH level, human or pet shampoos. Some manufacturers actually re-purpose baby shampoo and bottle it for dogs (from a personal source inside a major pet products retailer). Anyway, I like the way the shampoo works, and thought I would make sure that anyone who wanted to use it would have all of the information. I didn't choose a pH of 9 and try to hit that. I wanted it to be higher than 7 for sure is all. If you think 9 is too high, by all means, don't use it (and, you obviously don't).

The reasons I use the shampoo are completely based on my own personal opinions. I like it. I like the smell, I like the lather, I like the pH, I like the cleaning ability, and I like the ingredients. I have been using it exclusively for 2 years and love the results every day. After I bathe Catherine, she is soft and smells great and her coat looks fuller (she has fine hair). When I bathe Stitch, his extremely cottony coat lays flat and is shiny and very soft. I just thought I had a great product and I would be absolutely selfish to keep it to myself.

If you don't want to use it, that's absolutely fine with me. I sent you a free sample because I hoped that you would like it, too. You don't and that's fine.

[FL Tink]

I love love love this for my girls fur. One is cottony and the other is silky. I dont get the waxy part. They are super soft after I dry them. I love the smell and it lasts for a week.
I have one dog that likes to lay in the sun. This has made a huge difference on her smell. Perhaps i can finally change her name to something other than Smella Bella..ha ha

Sorry it didnt work for you. I can not tell you how many have not worked for me.
Its been great for my lil one's itching. They no longer flake and I love the idea of having such a high ph.

Gosh Darlene I totally forgot about using foam pump bottle! I have one i can use too!!

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

LOL

The pH of a dog's skin is about 7, while the pH of human skin is about 5.5 - it is my understanding that most shampoos have a pH of about 5.5 to 6.5. And, most shampoos make no mention of pH level, human or pet shampoos. Some manufacturers actually re-purpose baby shampoo and bottle it for dogs (from a personal source inside a major pet products retailer). Anyway, I like the way the shampoo works, and thought I would make sure that anyone who wanted to use it would have all of the information. I didn't choose a pH of 9 and try to hit that. I wanted it to be higher than 7 for sure is all. If you think 9 is too high, by all means, don't use it (and, you obviously don't).

The reasons I use the shampoo are completely based on my own personal opinions. I like it. I like the smell, I like the lather, I like the pH, I like the cleaning ability, and I like the ingredients. I have been using it exclusively for 2 years and love the results every day. After I bathe Catherine, she is soft and smells great and her coat looks fuller (she has fine hair). When I bathe Stitch, his extremely cottony coat lays flat and is shiny and very soft. I just thought I had a great product and I would be absolutely selfish to keep it to myself.

If you don't want to use it, that's absolutely fine with me. I sent you a free sample because I hoped that you would like it, too. You don't and that's fine.

Kudos to you for handling this in such a professional manner. The complaints seemed a bit rough to me....if you don't like something and want to comment, that's fine but it just seemed that the thread turned into an attack thing. That could be me and/or the way I interpreted it. There are MANY products on the market that I do not care for, but if many like them, then I figure it is probably a matter of MY personal preferences, not the quality of the products. Minksheen for example is not one of my favorites at all (I personally found the scent to be nasty and harsh), yet it has a fan base. *shrug*

I have not used your products but have heard they are wonderful from a couple of friends. I am happy with what I use so have not really thought to try anything else.

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Kudos to you for handling this in such a professional manner. The complaints seemed a bit rough to me....if you don't like something and want to comment, that's fine but it just seemed that the thread turned into an attack thing. That could be me and/or the way I interpreted it. There are MANY products on the market that I do not care for, but if many like them, then I figure it is probably a matter of MY personal preferences, not the quality of the products. Minksheen for example is not one of my favorites at all (I personally found the scent to be nasty and harsh), yet it has a fan base. *shrug*

I have not used your products but have heard they are wonderful from a couple of friends. I am happy with what I use so have not really thought to try anything else.

Thank you, ladyjane. You are very kind.

By the way, a friend of mine saw a pic my Yorkie Blanket on facebook, and I directed her to the YHR site. She immediately bought the Yorkie Love blanket.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

Thank you, ladyjane. You are very kind.

By the way, a friend of mine saw a pic my Yorkie Blanket on facebook, and I directed her to the YHR site. She immediately bought the Yorkie Love blanket.

Thank you so much! That's very nice ... I hope your friend liked it!

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Thank you so much! That's very nice ... I hope your friend liked it!

I think loved it is more like it. She told a few other friends about it, too. It's weird how there are some little Yorkie communities that are informal - some of my "Yorkie friends" never go on online forums or anything, but we email each other about issues, pass around shopping finds, etc.

[normarae63]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

Thank you, ladyjane. You are very kind.

By the way, a friend of mine saw a pic my Yorkie Blanket on facebook, and I directed her to the YHR site. She immediately bought the Yorkie Love blanket.

(I'd wondered how that turned out)

[ladyjane]

Those blankets and the Cloud Nine Beds have made lots of money for the Haven pups! It has been wonderful!

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by normarae63

(I'd wondered how that turned out)

LOL, yeah, I guess I should have mentioned it to you, haha