Well not sure on the brand of chicken as someone left it there LOL...

I know some yorkies I've seen in the ring have just simply taken my breath away and I"m talking the dog had great structure, movement and a beautiful coat and was like floating on air in the ring nothing more breath taking!

Donna

I'm sorry you are confused :(

I thought we were talking about breeder/exhibitors in this thread? no? I think we were... My bad again?

No it is not a dumb question in anyway at all. While there are many shades of grey here, I am going to come down on a side more black n white.

IMO if a dog is "unable" to show in the ring, then there is something incorrect about their temperament. Let me define unable for a moment: a dog that subissively pees in the ring, a dog that refuses physical examination either through aggression or through submission, a dog that refuses to trot in the ring due to fear, a dog that tries to fight or bite another dog in the ring, a dog that cowers in the ring or has a huge startle reaction to normal sounds and smells within the show environment.

A beautiful temperament in my mind and a "show temperament" go hand in hand. If your dog is a confident, and a well adjusted dog, they should be able to show in the ring. Now again in my mind, a great "show" dog, just loves and I mean really loves to show. It is their milieu, they go out there and throughly enjoy all aspects of showing. So a very few dogs will be "great" show dogs (and here I'm talking about show attitude), but all very good tempered dogs should be able to "show" well enough in the ring to earn their points. These dogs will probably never go BIS, or even place in group, but are deserving of their championship.

Magic my first BRT was and is a fine tempered dog, who accepted the show ring. When it stopped being fun for him, which happened around 2yrs old he retired. Now on the other hand, he lives to work. Just watch him in an obedience ring! He goes out there totally focussed on me, happy in his attitude, eager and almost anxious to please me. Sometimes that eagerness goes against us, as he can anticipate my commands and move ahead of the command ( a no no in the ring). So for him, he wasn't a "star" show dog, although he did do well in the ring, but he is a "star" working dog. Ilona my breeder (of Razz) and trainer for Magic, was over at Boxing Day, and of course we did a bit of work in the house, hand commands only, and she smiled and said Now that is a Working Dog. So enthusiastic and eager to work.

Razz is more of a showboy than Magic. He does "turn on" in the showring. How-ever with him my challenge is in the obedience arena. He is a true terrier, and still can be, ditzy... like who/what/ huh, what is sit? Do you really mean sit right now? was that a command you just gave me? But Mom there is something smelling interesting over here or there, or I hear this or that... selective deafness... LOL.
We have been working for about one year on, staying out of the kitchen when our family has dinner. My BRT's took about 4wks to obey the commands, and these dogs are highly food motivated. cough cough, Razz on the other hand, enjoys defying my command. He is very cute, in his way to try to sneak back into the kitchen. And he works his cuteness. did I mention he was stubborn:D

So in summary, if a dog exhibits behavious as mentioned above, not only should you not show him or her, you should not Breed him or her, because the temperament is incorrect.

If a dog just accepts the showring, but doesn't really enjoy it, finish him/her and retire them from showing.

If a dog loves the showring, all other attributes being great, and financial wherewithall in place, then go ahead and special that "special" dog/bitch.

Jodi was answering this comment.

[quote=megansmomma;3379009]It's the BUYERS!!! I truly believe they are the entire problem. Poor people can get 1000 for a Yorkie? Why wouldn't they do it for the money? Take away the uneducated consumer and I don't think there would be a market for less than wonderfully bred Yorkies.

Oh well, now I'm confused. I have to go shopping now anyway, LOL.

Well wouldn't that be the ideal personality of a Yorkshire Terrier? :p
All kidding aside, thanks for the response. I understand a tad bit more. It seems a yorkie, whether show or not, whether fearful or outgoing still has basic elements in their personality of a terrier. My pup is fearful, but he does all of the quoted above. Oh geez... does he keep sneaking into the kitchen. I have stories to tell!

BUT! Even with all his crazy quirks and an undesirable personality (I'm convinced in any other home, he would have been re-homed twice by now) I have a feeling agility is going to be his thing. For the most part he's eager to please, and we "practice" in an empty jungle gym. He does everything he is asked without a bigger reward than a good boy. :)

That is great! I hope you find much joy in agility, as I have. It is such a fun thing to do together. Eager to please is such a great characteristic in a dog. You and your boy will bond ever closer the more you work with each other. Agility is a true team sport... you and your dog can't get any better than that

First off, in rescue you do not have a pedigree turned over with a dog at a shelter so there would be no way to know what is in their lines. It's not like you go to the local shelter, they hand you a dog and their pedigree. :confused: From what I have read on this forum isn't that called backdoor breeding? I've read before about how this can occur and hen a breeder will start tossing big names around in their advertising. Maybe someone else can help clarify better than I can.

[quote=BFar;3379131]
I could not disagree more on this point. The average consumer might try to do their homework, read a few books, steer clear of pet shops etc, etc, etc, but just like a Used Car Salesman there is always someone more slick at what they do. The breeders that are in to for the money will say and do whatever is needed to make that sale. Just take a look at all of the puppy mills that have turned to the internet posting pictures of their family sitting next to a fireplace or in a wagon saying "our puppies are raised underfoot......" They know what to say and do it well to scammer the consumer. If there were better regulations and consuer protection laws along with accountability for breeding there would be less breeders willing to sell sick dogs/poorly bred dogs to the public at large. But really, this discussion is getting so far off topic a this point I need to stop.

Any dog can end up in rescue, fine pedigree or not. Even those who live in the finest homes can find themselves faced with changed circumstances....

Sometimes, show breeders themselves are to blame for further burdening an already overburdened rescue system....just look at the recent thread on this rescue forum about the six yorkies thrown away and neglected by their "show breeders" in Maine. I bet they had lovely family trees.

Perhaps a course in ethics should be required for breeders. Just because one CAN produce an off standard dog for a few hundred bucks doesn't mean they should.

To me, "poor people can get 1000 for a Yorkie. Why wouldn't they do it for the money?" is like saying "Poor people can get $100 for a Kilo, so why not produce it?" Money isn't an excuse for doing wrong.

The fault likes evenly in both camps; breeders and buyers.

I kind of agree with this, buyers should educate themselves, but ultimately, the person who brings the dog into the world holds the most responsibility for that dog and any offspring it has. So be careful who you sell to, and be careful who you buy from. I really do think it's up to breeders to educate the puppy buyer, but so few do, and that's why I love YT, puppy buyers can learn a lot.

Ugh- I need to learn how to spell. My last post should have said "lies" and not "likes".

Laurie said that when she started out it was working as an RN full time, raising kids and showing dogs. I asked her how she did it; she said she almost went nuts but she made it. Her success speaks for it's self. I'm very lucky to be involved with such dedicated women.

Ha ha, if you wouldn't have told me, I would never have noticed it!

I haven't really read anything in this thread that makes me feel much more clear about the original concern and the volume of breeding :(. I'm actually feeling a little dazed over the contradictory info.

Does anyone understand the concern that for YEARS here at YT, it has been posted over and over and over that "Oh no! You should not breed that dog, it is out of standard!" --and-- "you should have that dog evaluated by a show breeder".

Well :confused:. Now we're hearing that show breeders believe "yes, it's fine to breed out-of-standard as long as you're breeding TO standard and know your lines" -- firstly, this goes against so much of what has been said here at YT. Second, how would any breeder know their own out-of-standard breeding 'results' unless they've bred out-of-standard often enough for it to be predictable!? And if out-of-standard breedings can result in TO STANDARD, then I no longer understand why we hear at YT constantly "this dog is out of standard and shouldn't be bred".

Also, I don't understand so often hearing "well, a show breeder should evaluate all potential breeding prospects, but it is out of standard already - so, actually, it should not be bred or shown" -- bc now (after all these years) I'm reading the opposite right here in this thread.

And for years, we hear an exhibitor is only supposed to breed every couple years (for their own, specific program needs)...and now...that all changed with this thread. So, which is it? That exhibitors should only breed every couple of years? Or, that it's (quote) impossible to develop a champ line unless breeding 10 litters a year (end quote) (as someone specifically stated in this thread)?

I am genuinely confused by all the incongruities and contradictions, I really am. I would be happy if people have the answers and can explain it...I just really want to understand this. And, I mean no disrespect whatsoever to anyone on this thread; rather, I appreciate the willingness for a discussion. :)

I'm seeing what I think are double standards on this thread. A person can have the *most* beautiful facilities on the planet, however, if they are churning out litters, they are *churning* out litters - no matter how many ways people try to re-frame it.

What is being discussed is a breeder stating in her answer to: Are the parents of your puppies within the size range of the stipulated Yorkshire Terrier Standard? The bitches may be larger Larger can be 7 1/2 pounds.

Keeping in mind this breeder has been breeding for 35 years, produced multiple Champions and has a well established line. This no fly by night breeder, she knows her lines and how to breed them. She knows every dog within her pedigrees backward and forward. Knows what her dogs will produce. She has completely emersed herself in the breed. Has been handling dogs since she was a child, and finished many dogs from various breeds. She is a vet tech. But, what is at the top of her credentials is her envolvement with the Canine Health Information Center and making it manditory for YTCA members to have their dogs tested.

I realize that's what's being discussed, which is why I started this thread and asked more about it above. Maybe there is no answer to what I'm asking? Which is fine too, I just want to know.

Theoretically, a 7 pound 1 ounce female is over standard. I've been reading the breeding forum for years now, and the question often comes up, "Can I breed a bitch over 7 pounds?", the answers have come from many breeders here that I consider knowledgeable, and the answers are complex, and involve taking many things into the equation. I thought I could present the short answer with what are you breeding To, or what is the goal? In other words, if the breeder were breeding to create larger dogs, this would be considered breeding for a fault; she's isn't doing that. Can you understand the difference?

The dog that is considered to be the Father of the Breed, Huddersfield Ben was over 13 pounds, but consistently threw pups under 7lbs, which enabled the Yorkshire terrier to enter the toy class. A prize-winning dog should never be breed again, if it produces dogs way out of standard, and yes, there is a learning process. That's why I always tell YT members you don't buy from a good breeder because you want a show dog, or because you need status, you buy because you believe in the breeding program and what they are doing. You have to ask your self what is the GOAL of this breeder? Do you know how easily it would have been for the breeder in question to have lied, and just answered "No", she knows enough about breeding to know this isn't a bad thing.

I'm getting the feeling there may not be an answer to the inconsistencies I'm wondering about. I can live with that, it just makes me very uncomfortable....which is my problem, honestly.

I kinow this breeder on a personal level and know of her breeding program, and since the website where the info on the breeder was gleaned was established in the early nineties......has scaled down her breeding program.

As stated by another poster maybe it would better to ask the person directly.

I think I did answer your question; this breeder knows her lines but, more importantly knows how to breed her lines, what every dog within those lines has produced.

It's a bit different than someone buying two dogs, that know nothing about the dogs lines and breeding....that's where the unknown comes in....health, temperement issues and of course those yorkies that don't look like yorkies.

Just a little additional info on this person. Due to a physical afflication her parents started her in handling for her self esteem as well as physical therapy.

Mary, in my post above (#167), I'm not asking about anyone specific. I'm asking about all the incongruities with respect to what's been said here (for years) vs. what is now being said by some of the same people in this thread.

Like I said, it's makes me very uncomfortable - but I will give it more thought.

Just to clarify, I have not once mentioned anyone's name during this thread; rather, it was you who PMd me and asked me specifically who I was talking about, which I shared with you in confidence.

I'm not a breeder, so breeders please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that all purebred dogs have faults, even the champions. It is just a question of how many faults they have and which ones. So if you limit breeding to only those dogs that meet the standard perfectly, you will never have any dogs that are good enough to breed.

A female that is slightly large, and out of standard in that respect, might have some really outstanding traits that should be passed on to her progeny, and might be very consistent in producing pups that DO meet the size standard, especially when paired with the appropriate male. It is a matter of trying to combine the right pair so that, hopefully, their offspring will have all of the strengths of the dam and sire, and the pups will inherit the best genes and traits of each. Successive generations and very selective breeding can, if carefully chosen, eliminate or decrease the incidence of a fault in future offspring, thereby improving the breed.

In figuring out how to choose the right pair to correct faults ..... well that is way over my head.

I'm totally confused by the inconsistencies you are seeing. I think some people believe 5-10 litters a year is WAY TOO MUCH like you do, and others think 1-2 litters in lifetime is WAY TOO MUCH for some breeders, like I do, it depends on the breeder in question.

First, I understand your confusion....but you can not breed "out of standard" to standard if know your lines...might get away with it once in awhile, but cream rises to the top.
AND...what "out of standard fault are we talking about? A bitch that runs too light or a poorly structured bitch, back and front...BIG difference. No Yorkie is perfect, there will always be faults...and you breed to correct these faults from Yorkies with a long line of winners behind them and ones with easier to corrected faults..color is very easy to correct..structure is not...try to reduce the ear size on a Yorkie with huge easty/westy ears and you will grow old doing so...remove that Yorkie from your program...remove bad bites, poor temperament...but if the eye is a bit too round or too big, the tail set is a bit low, pigment could be darker, muzzle a touch too short or long..IMO it would be a mistake to remove these dogs...breed to a terrific stud known to correct these problems.

I do not know who told you that a good breeder only breeds every couple of years...this is simply not true. It may take 4 litters in one year to produce the 2 or 3 champions a breeder will want to show for the next 2 yrs...I have a friend with a litter from a super breeding...she has 3 small girls..one might make 5 pounds, but 2 will stay under 4...she is getting ready to breed another litter in hopes of a male to show...if she is smart I think she should go for two more this year to ensure several potentials..that is what most do...as I recall Parkside finished 10 one year...how many litters do you think that took?..and is it wrong to produce champions to ensure the continuance of the breed..I do not think so...and where do nice pets come from...I just wish the good breeders could supply enough to put the miller out of business.

Anne,

There is no simple answer to the layman. Believe me I couldn't have understood it until I emersed myself in the breed, worked with my mentor(s), studied pedigrees, genetics (and of course keeping in mind that this breed is one of the most difficult breeds to breed and as judges say one of the most difficult to judge) and began my own breeding program. To this day I still come up with breeding questions and pose them to the more knowledgable......they usually set me straight.

As my mentor told me in the beginning; this is a very challenging breed, so if you don't have patience and have a low frustration level......don't embark on the journey.


By the way I mentioned no names either.

Ann there is no simple way as Mary said. But look up breeding co -efficients and charts that attempt to evaluate a potential breeding pair. There are a lot of variables into this "scientific" approach to selecting the sire/dam.

I don't know the threads you were referring to, in terms of "out" of standard and don't breed advice. But I will merely put out there is out of standard and really out of standard.

Let's say for eg we have a new member called Hopeful. She asks if she should breed her bitch. She supplies sideline, front, and rear pics of her hopeful She says that her bitch has been ddx'd with LP 1 in one knee. Oh and also she is 9 lbs.

So we look at the pics, we see a coat color very light, a head that is coarse, a front that is narrow, with a rear that is wide, and what looks like a dip in the topline.

So the advice would conceivably be; your bitch is off standard, please don't breed her

On the other hand, lets say a breeder has a well respected champion sired bitch of good color, coat, structure and temperament..but she 8 pounds..would you breed her or recommend a breeding...?
I would, I quite frankly you would be hard pressed to find breeders who would not ...

I think you posted something similar to this in the breeding forum a couple of years ago in even more detail. Knowing the rules is great, but knowing all the exceptions to the rules is even better, and of course we have to understand the rules before we can break them.


I'm hoping some of you experienced breeders can explain to the average puppy buyer, what the difference is between a DQ and a fault.