Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3380756)

Parkside lives in PR...anyone seen her kennel?
I recall a picture of a 3 story house..and a picture of her back garden...

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama (Post 3380677)

No offense at all, Donna.

But here comes the question: If great show breeders are primarily concerned with preserving the breed, are they doing that by breeding in mass? Presumably, they are only keeping the dogs that meet their showing goals. The rest are placed in homes. Now, presumably again, those dogs are placed on spay and neuter contracts because those dogs weren't fit for showing and therefore, not fit for breeding. So how is that improving the breed if the lineage stops there? Or are they selling these dogs to other breeders as "good enough" to breed? And if these "good enough" dogs are breeding, how are they controlling the progeny to make sure the lines stay strong? Limited registrations haven’t helped; the unscrupulous breeder just goes and registers with an alternate registry and keeps going.

I'm going to pull a number out of the air here; since I can't seem to find a good answer to what percentage of pups from a show breeder are show- worthy. If 1 out of every 25 pups is championable (is that a word?) , what about the other 24? Granted, it's more likely that these pups are well vetted and less likely to have health problems than the mill dogs, but that's still 24 dogs brought in to an already over populated pet world. I'm not saying that these high volume show breeders are the cause of the overpopulation problem, but surely they are adding to it every bit as much as the byb'er.



There is a huge difference between a dog that chooses to go in to a cage on its own, and one that is forced to stay in a cage/crate/xpen/kennel because it’s owner is too busy or has too many dogs to properly supervise it. I also won’t disagree that many breeders spend more one on one time than some many pet owners. But I don’t care how many kennel helpers you can afford to pay; the dog still loses out on the day to day bonding and interaction that is the reason this species, above all others, is so loved when it’s kenneled versus raised in a good home situation. So if it’s bad for the owner to do it, why is it ok for the breeder? If they truly love the dogs, why deprive them of something it needs to reach it’s full potential? It just seems hypocritical that these same breeders would point fingers at the mills and BYB’ers and say they are bad for the way they treat their dogs, while doing essentially the same thing themselves, just in better conditions.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that a high volume show breeder producing more dogs isn’t going to put the BYB’er or mills out of business. It’s not going to improve the overall health of the breed nor preserve the traits of the Yorkie as long as everyone is over breeding. I just see a lot of excusing A,B and C because someone does X,Y and Z.

ETA: Not sure why Brooklyn's quote came out so strange. I've been having lots of issues with quoting lately

Originally Posted by Breezeaway (Post 3380769)

I never said you recommended them as breeders, Nancy, I said, I remember you saying you liked their Kennels. You then said you never said it, making me look like I just made it up.

Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3380756)

Parkside lives in PR...anyone seen her kennel?
I recall a picture of a 3 story house..and a picture of her back garden...

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3380765)

I can assure you that I'm not making excuses for anyone, if I did not believe that some purebred breeders actually loved the breed as a whole as much as I do, and not just their own dogs, I would not buy a purebred. Do breeders and their dogs make sacrifices for the good of the breed? Yes, I believe the do. If you do not believe in showing, I do not understand how you can buy a purebred dog, for without show breeders who breed to standard, the purebred yorkie would look undistinguishable from other dogs in 50 years. Some of these bigger kennels are probably not even selling to the pet buyer, but they are probably selling to a small breeder who has proven herself to someone and has shown she won't be breeding for profit. So many small breeder say, nobody will sell me a good dog, but they have never taken the time to prove to someone, they are doing it for the right reason, and not just to earn pocket change. Most of the breeders I know, have spent way more on their dogs than they have ever earned.

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama (Post 3380776)

I didn't say I didn't believe in showing or breeding to standard. Just questioning how one can justify the mass breeding by some show breeders as being good for Yorkies in general. The bad breeders are getting their hands on dogs from somewhere, and I don't think they are getting them exclusively from other bad breeders. Since so many of them are claiming champion lines (even though most are distant in their pedigrees), they obviously came from the show breeders to begin with. The lines aren't being controlled tightly enough, IMO.

I don't know what the answer is. It just seems to me that at a certain point (and I don't know what that point is) the mass show breeder crosses over in to the same gray area as the commercial breeders. Maybe not quite as dark a shade of gray, but gray none the less.

Originally Posted by gardenyorkies (Post 3380781)

...So instead of putting the responsible breeder on the same level as the rest help educate the puppy buyer to stay away from the pet stores, byb's etc...

Originally Posted by TammyJM (Post 3378800)

I have read through this whole thread and I am still sitting here with the same feelings that I began with. Quite honestly, I don't care what ribbon and/or status a dog achieves...I care about their spirit....their happiness that they will experience in their short lives. I don't care how "nice", "clean", "high-tech" a kennel is or how many "nannies" they have hired. Do you think that these dogs would chose this life for themselves....if that had a choice, that is. My local homeless animal shelter is all of this mentioned (new, nice, clean, high-tech, good vet care) but these dogs beg to get out of there and do you think that the "show Yorkies" think that their situation is any better? Difference between the two is that at least the shelter dogs are not being bred.

I know that I wouldn't like it if I were them and if you say that you feel they are happy, then try trading places with them for awhile....you in the kennel, them on a comfy couch. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama (Post 3380776)

I don't know what the answer is. It just seems to me that at a certain point (and I don't know what that point is) the mass show breeder crosses over in to the same gray area as the commercial breeders. Maybe not quite as dark a shade of gray, but gray none the less.

Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3378957)

The word "kennel" is not a dirty word...dictionary says it is a place where dogs are housed, bred, trained or boarded..so I would say anyone here who has a dog, breeds it, trains it not to pee on the floor, provides a food and shelter..HAS A KENNEL.AKC refers to a breeders prefix..as a Kennel prefix..they do not care if you have 1 or 50, 500...

The biggest mistake a novice breeder makes is saying they breed for health and temperment..a good pet for families. It is not enough...good pets come from shelters of all types...why breed more. The only reason to ever, ever breed a purebred litter of puppies to follow the standard as best as possible, present the show quality to be judged by your peers..do not harm to the breed and strive to improve, not destroy the breed.

Believe it or not this can be done on a very small basis in your home or in a large kennel...
AND one more point if I may...people complain show people are snobbish, won't converse at shows, standoffish...it is the same as going up to a professional athlete at a game and asking questions...it may all look like fun and games, but it is dead serious...without show breeders the Yorkie disappears or what we know as a Yorkie disappears. Are exhibtors the only ones who can produce a quality litter?..NO, but without close ties and involvement you are fooling yourself.

Originally Posted by manolos mom (Post 3380825)

Jen, what did you pay for your Parti? I know a few Show Breeders that dont charge half the price of a Parti. Qualifications, you must finish the dog. Please attend a dog show and talk to the Breeders. Most are A+ breeders, that are VERY choosy when finding good homes. Lissette

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama (Post 3380776)

I didn't say I didn't believe in showing or breeding to standard. Just questioning how one can justify the mass breeding by some show breeders as being good for Yorkies in general. The bad breeders are getting their hands on dogs from somewhere, and I don't think they are getting them exclusively from other bad breeders. Since so many of them are claiming champion lines (even though most are distant in their pedigrees), they obviously came from the show breeders to begin with. The lines aren't being controlled tightly enough, IMO.

I don't know what the answer is. It just seems to me that at a certain point (and I don't know what that point is) the mass show breeder crosses over in to the same gray area as the commercial breeders. Maybe not quite as dark a shade of gray, but gray none the less.

Originally Posted by BFar (Post 3379039)

No, I am not a volume breeder. But I know some and they are dedicated to their dogs. It's what they spend most of their lives taking care of. It's not nice to roll your eyes. It's insulting. We can have a decent conversation without it.

Originally Posted by Breezeaway (Post 3380840)

What does the price of her parti have to do with this conversation?
How much did you pay for your show dog?

Originally Posted by manolos mom (Post 3380825)

Jen, what did you pay for your Parti? I know a few Show Breeders that dont charge half the price of a Parti. Qualifications, you must finish the dog. Please attend a dog show and talk to the Breeders. Most are A+ breeders, that are VERY choosy when finding good homes. Lissette

Originally Posted by manolos mom (Post 3380845)

You have asked several times what does Breeding to the Standard mean, I pulled this off the YTCA page, please read because this is what every show breeder wants to achive with their line. Yorkshire Terrier Club of America Official Breed Standard

Originally Posted by manolos mom (Post 3380854)

It has lots to do with this. When talking about multiple breedings? I paid nothing compared to the prices of Parti's. And guess what, I get to show mine. Breezeway, I am not trying to argue,:) just want you to come visit the shows and talk to the breeders/exhibitors, you can learn so much.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 3379366)

I haven't really read anything in this thread that makes me feel much more clear about the original concern and the volume of breeding :(. I'm actually feeling a little dazed over the contradictory info.

Does anyone understand the concern that for YEARS here at YT, it has been posted over and over and over that "Oh no! You should not breed that dog, it is out of standard!" --and-- "you should have that dog evaluated by a show breeder".

Well :confused:. Now we're hearing that show breeders believe "yes, it's fine to breed out-of-standard as long as you're breeding TO standard and know your lines" -- firstly, this goes against so much of what has been said here at YT. Second, how would any breeder know their own out-of-standard breeding 'results' unless they've bred out-of-standard often enough for it to be predictable!? And if out-of-standard breedings can result in TO STANDARD, then I no longer understand why we hear at YT constantly "this dog is out of standard and shouldn't be bred".

Also, I don't understand so often hearing "well, a show breeder should evaluate all potential breeding prospects, but it is out of standard already - so, actually, it should not be bred or shown" -- bc now (after all these years) I'm reading the opposite right here in this thread.

And for years, we hear an exhibitor is only supposed to breed every couple years (for their own, specific program needs)...and now...that all changed with this thread. So, which is it? That exhibitors should only breed every couple of years? Or, that it's (quote) impossible to develop a champ line unless breeding 10 litters a year (end quote) (as someone specifically stated in this thread)?

I am genuinely confused by all the incongruities and contradictions, I really am. I would be happy if people have the answers and can explain it...I just really want to understand this. And, I mean no disrespect whatsoever to anyone on this thread; rather, I appreciate the willingness for a discussion. :)

I'm seeing what I think are double standards on this thread. A person can have the *most* beautiful facilities on the planet, however, if they are churning out litters, they are *churning* out litters - no matter how many ways people try to re-frame it.

Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3379424)

I just wish the good breeders could supply enough to put the miller out of business.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3380765)

I can assure you that I'm not making excuses for anyone, if I did not believe that some purebred breeders actually loved the breed as a whole as much as I do, and not just their own dogs, I would not buy a purebred. Do breeders and their dogs make sacrifices for the good of the breed? Yes, I believe the do. If you do not believe in showing, I do not understand how you can buy a purebred dog, for without show breeders who breed to standard, the purebred yorkie would look undistinguishable from other dogs in 50 years. Some of these bigger kennels are probably not even selling to the pet buyer, but they are probably selling to a small breeder who has proven herself to someone and has shown she won't be breeding for profit. So many small breeder say, nobody will sell me a good dog, but they have never taken the time to prove to someone, they are doing it for the right reason, and not just to earn pocket change. Most of the breeders I know, have spent way more on their dogs than they have ever earned.

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama (Post 3380917)

I've read here multiple times that breeding and showing is expensive, and a litter, done right, is not a profit maker. But wouldn't it be safe to assume that someone who has reached the level where they hiring kennel help and building out buildings for the multiple litters are probably turning a profit? I can't imagine that they are all independently wealthy.

Originally Posted by jencar98 (Post 3380876)

Lissette, there are some things I don't normally mention the amount I've paid, but with Razz it's no secret he came from Tammy and her for sale ad was posted for all to see. I've actually forgot the exact amount but it was somewhere in the neighborhood of $900....and that is about half the price I paid for Reno, from a well known show breeder. To tell ya the truth though.....I would have paid much more for Razz knowing him as I do now♥

Yes, there are partis outrageously priced, just as there are other yorkies priced too high, some even from show breeders sold for pets. I'm aware of a show breeder that had a chocolate puppy appear in one of her litters. I was told (not by her) she had a buyer lined up for $5,000. I was told later she decided to keep the pup, IDK what actually happened.

Also....I've been to numerous dog shows and spoke with many breeders. lol...I was just telling someone this morning, I've got over a thousand hours into my education of yorkies/showing/breeding. That education, my rescue work and time, have all been instrumental in developing my opinions.

Originally Posted by caw (Post 3380859)

So....what's the criteria for owning an exhibitor's yorkshire terrier deemed pet quality?

Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3380919)

Actually I know several that are independently wealthy :)