Originally Posted by FlDebra (Post 3376720)

"But at first glance I, as a buyer, would mostly choose from the small litter breeder than the large (with all other things being equal in the pup) just because I don't believe the one with so many running around could possibly be adequately caring for them.
I take mine daily (5 days/wk) for car rides, one day (alternating days) a week just one pup comes to work with me for more individualized time (queen/king for the day sort of thing), etc., etc. It'd be hard for one person with 10+ pups to do that consistently and frequently I think"
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kjcmsw -- Keep in mind there are always other factors that go into how much time is actually spent on puppy care & development. For instance, you mention taking one at a time to work with you. Many do not work outside of the home and have ALL day 24/7 to contribute to the care of their pups. Others are away a huge portion of the day for work, transportation, socialization, etc. Some have several human children that need to share in the available "care hours." One breeder may devote most of her waking time to puppy/dog care and socialization. Another may see it as a chore to be taken care of and move on to their other interests.

There just isn't one formula that will fit for all. Sometimes there is a family involved with the business so the man-hours are doubled, tripled, or more..... giving the pups even more human contact & care than what you might see in a one person, one litter at a time operation. It just is never as simple as saying it is better to go with a smaller output breeding program. I think that is what is so important about knowing the breeder. Once you really get to know them and see them in action (more than once), you can get a feel for the true contribution they make to the puppies' care. Reputations are built on well-socialized pups as well as those closely adhering to the standards. That is sort of spilling over to the other factors you already mentioned like lines & respectability.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3375525)

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I guess I'm the one who doesn't understand, from other posts it sounds like you are against showing, and think of them as merely beauty contests, I thought that too, and I've only been trying to share what I've learned. It almost sounds like you believe that only pet owners should breed, and not people who have really devoted their lives to this. The truth is most of the yorkies produced are through pet owners, not people who've devoted their lives to breeding, and it seems we have a problem. Good breeders dogs do not wind up in rescues.

Originally Posted by jencar98 (Post 3377610)

You didn't offend me but you didn't understand either. I'm against most anyone breeding, whether show or pet breeders. While I agree it is important to preserve the breed, I believe that can be done adequately with fewer numbers breeding. If I posted what I truly believe and know, it would offend many so, I choose not to for now. Dog breeding is a subject that I can not neatly sum up my opinions in a few short paragraphs. In my heart and mind, I know what makes up a good breeder and it has taken years for my opinion to evolve.

You're right, good breeders dogs rarely end up in rescue but stop and think about that statement. I just read from another thread link that 75% of the dogs in shelters are mix breeds, not pure bred dogs. So, that leaves 25% for pure bred dogs, I would expect of that 25%, for various reasons very few would come from good breeders. None of which has anything to do with "who" the dog came from but, more to do with the person buying the dog.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3377664)

Well we more on the same page about this then I realized. Perhaps our differences are, "what makes a good breeder." I really don't believe that good breeders' dogs turn up in rescues. I think good breeders really take the pains to match the dog with pet owners, and I know many good breeders do not believe that the yorkie is right for many families. They refuse to sell, and we've all read threads here about that, and yet people back up the buyer and say the breeder must be bad. While most breeders "act" like they are selective in choosing a family, most really can't afford to be selective, they are breeding for money, so money will come into the equation. Another reason that dogs are in shelters is due to training problems, a breeder should thoroughly access the skills of the pet owner, and teach the basics of housebreaking to the owner before the puppy goes to its new home. Bottom line is most dogs end up in shelter because the dog wasn't a good match or buyers didn't know how to train, and they often go out and get another dog. In my opinion, breeders are always responsible for every dog that they produce, and so therefore they are always responsible if the dog ends up in shelters. Do I think buyers should share some responsibility too, yes, of course, that's my primary reason for being on Yorkietalk, I want to educate puppy buyers.

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 3377690)

You know Nancy I've read a lot of posts by new Yorkie members and there is a cluster of common questions.
Many of these questions could have been addressed verbally by the breeder, or better still if the breeder had included in the take home puppy package, a typed up version of some things like housebreaking, immunization protocols, etc etc. Basic grooming advice including links to some on line videos that show how to trim nails, ear health, teeth cleaning, brushing/combing your dog, recommendations for puppy shampoos and bathing tips.

Originally Posted by jencar98 (Post 3377610)

You didn't offend me but you didn't understand either. I'm against most anyone breeding, whether show or pet breeders. While I agree it is important to preserve the breed, I believe that can be done adequately with fewer numbers breeding. If I posted what I truly believe and know, it would offend many so, I choose not to for now. Dog breeding is a subject that I can not neatly sum up my opinions in a few short paragraphs. In my heart and mind, I know what makes up a good breeder and it has taken years for my opinion to evolve.

You're right, good breeders dogs rarely end up in rescue but stop and think about that statement. I just read from another thread link that 75% of the dogs in shelters are mix breeds, not pure bred dogs. So, that leaves 25% for pure bred dogs, I would expect of that 25%, for various reasons very few would come from good breeders. None of which has anything to do with "who" the dog came from but, more to do with the person buying the dog.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 3374021)

I was hoping to understand a few things, bc I'm thrown for a bit of a loop at the moment.

So, there is a member here who is purporting to be a Show Breeder, however, on one of the breeder listing sites, I'm reading that this breeder states they 'breed some bitches who are out of standard', and breeds 5-10 litters a YEAR. It also appears that this member may be a member of the YTCA.

Does this seem off to only me? From what I've seen here at YT, the Exhibitors breed *maybe* 1 litter every 1-2 years, and only if there really is a need for it in their program.

What am I missing here? Or, is this someone who may be talking out of both sides of their mouth? Purporting one thing, while doing another...

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 3375013)

We have several exhibitors around here that finsh 4 dogs a year. This can't be done without having quite a few litters to produce those show dogs. Breeders can't be judged by how many litters they produce each year but on how well the dogs are kept, how the puppies are placed, and if the goal of perserving and improving the breed is being sought.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3377704)

Joey's breeder talked about training even before she'd meet with me, she wanted to access what skills I had in the overall training department, as well as what type of discipline I believed in. She too, gave me a typewritten document with reminders on certain things we had talked about including vaccinations, skin care, anesthesia protocol, and the other things you mention. The main thing is that I knew I could call her anytime day or night, if I had a problem. This training thing is so important though, while yorkies are difficult to housebreak, and rehomed because of it, larger breeds are often easier to housebreak, but may have aggression problems, as they get older, so training should definitely be addressed by breeders.

Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3378304)

Not to offend YT, but how many Top Show breeders do we have here?
I know it is not usual for any breeder finishing 6 to 10 champions per year.(remember many co-own or sell to other show kennels) to have 4 to 6.
I do not recall YTCA limiting litter numbers. AKC does not...

I am not defending volumne breeding..but if a breeder like Durrers or NikNak, just to name two are producing champion after champion, I think how many litters they breed is their business. One litter every two years or 4 every year makes no one reputable and ethical.

Originally Posted by yorkielady06 (Post 3377815)

"The root of the problem goes much deeper than the mongrel and mutt, it is our society's belief and value system (or lack thereof) that has resulted in animals being thrown away like garbage and grandma being dumped in a nursing home."
This in my opinion is the greatest danger to not only animals but to human kind. :(

Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3378304)

Not to offend YT, but how many Top Show breeders do we have here?
I know it is not usual for any breeder finishing 6 to 10 champions per year.(remember many co-own or sell to other show kennels) to have 4 to 6.
I do not recall YTCA limiting litter numbers. AKC does not...

I am not defending volumne breeding..but if a breeder like Durrers or NikNak, just to name two are producing champion after champion, I think how many litters they breed is their business. One litter every two years or 4 every year makes no one reputable and ethical.

Originally Posted by TammyJM (Post 3378350)

This a bit off-topic, but what constitutes a, "Top Show breeder"? I'm also curious about what you asked; "..how many Top Show breeders do we have here?".

Originally Posted by TammyJM (Post 3378350)

This a bit off-topic, but what constitutes a, "Top Show breeder"? I'm also curious about what you asked; "..how many Top Show breeders do we have here?".

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 3378412)

I would consider someone that has consistently excelled at producing top winning dogs to be a Top Show breeder. Around here we have Caraneal, Stratford, Wolpert, Tiffanys, and Thimbletip. We have many up and coming breeders like Paddington, Empee, and Yorkchest as well. It's a lofty goal that few obtain.

Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3378304)

Not to offend YT, but how many Top Show breeders do we have here?
I know it is not usual for any breeder finishing 6 to 10 champions per year.(remember many co-own or sell to other show kennels) to have 4 to 6.
I do not recall YTCA limiting litter numbers. AKC does not...I am not defending volumne breeding..but if a breeder like Durrers or NikNak, just to name two are producing champion after champion, I think how many litters they breed is their business. One litter every two years or 4 every year makes no one reputable and ethical.

Originally Posted by TammyJM (Post 3378350)

This a bit off-topic, but what constitutes a, "Top Show breeder"? I'm also curious about what you asked; "..how many Top Show breeders do we have here?".

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 3378412)

I would consider someone that has consistently excelled at producing top winning dogs to be a Top Show breeder. Around here we have Caraneal, Stratford, Wolpert, Tiffanys, and Thimbletip. We have many up and coming breeders like Paddington, Empee, and Yorkchest as well. It's a lofty goal that few obtain.

Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3378673)

I used the term, Top Breeder as defined in the recent thread...7 stages of a breeder.
There could be some here, but I do not think so..not meaning YT is benneath them..but they do not have time or the need to be a member here

Some members see fit to list a set of rules and regs to define what is right and wrong in the dog world...with all due respect, you do not set the rules..nor do I.

Originally Posted by BFar (Post 3378765)

:thumbup:

I agree. So much so that I have been hesitant to admit that I have a litter due and share in the excitement and nervousness of it here. I was thinking about this yesterday as I was washing my show dog, even though I was sooo tired, babying my expectant bitch, coaxing her to eat and making sure my cut down boy got his attention and got his teeth brushed. And how much work it is to be an exhibitor and breeder and how much of our money goes to taking care of the dogs. And that's the easy part. The biggest investment is our hearts. I'm not patting my own back here. This is the same scenario for the breeder/exhibitors that I have had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know a little at dog shows. The apathetic B/E is the rarity. The more litters, the more exhausting it is. The more tirelessly they have to work. These breeders are amazing to me and are the ones who are making it possible for there to be nice Yorkies in the world. They live a different life than the non-breeder... I have tickets to a Broadway play next Friday that I received as a Christmas gift that I probably won't be going to... how many weddings, etc. do breeders have to miss because of doggie obligations? All this without even mentioning the work it takes to show a Yorkie. The travel, the lack of sleep, the motels, the money, the stress, and then getting a labor-intensive Yorkie groomed so that it can compete with the professionally handled dogs int the ring. It is a collective labor of love and there is a culture of people who have this calling to do this with their lives. I don't think they deserve to be judged by anyone who has not done it themselves. For one not involved with breeding/exhibiting to decide the number of litters a breeder/exhibitor should have just does not makes sense.

Originally Posted by BFar (Post 3378765)

:thumbup:

I agree. So much so that I have been hesitant to admit that I have a litter due and share in the excitement and nervousness of it here. I was thinking about this yesterday as I was washing my show dog, even though I was sooo tired, babying my expectant bitch, coaxing her to eat and making sure my cut down boy got his attention and got his teeth brushed. And how much work it is to be an exhibitor and breeder and how much of our money goes to taking care of the dogs. And that's the easy part. The biggest investment is our hearts. I'm not patting my own back here. This is the same scenario for the breeder/exhibitors that I have had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know a little at dog shows. The apathetic B/E is the rarity. The more litters, the more exhausting it is. The more tirelessly they have to work. These breeders are amazing to me and are the ones who are making it possible for there to be nice Yorkies in the world. They live a different life than the non-breeder... I have tickets to a Broadway play next Friday that I received as a Christmas gift that I probably won't be going to... how many weddings, etc. do breeders have to miss because of doggie obligations? All this without even mentioning the work it takes to show a Yorkie. The travel, the lack of sleep, the motels, the money, the stress, and then getting a labor-intensive Yorkie groomed so that it can compete with the professionally handled dogs int the ring. It is a collective labor of love and there is a culture of people who have this calling to do this with their lives. I don't think they deserve to be judged by anyone who has not done it themselves. For one not involved with breeding/exhibiting to decide the number of litters a breeder/exhibitor should have just does not makes sense.

Originally Posted by BFar (Post 3378765)

:thumbup:

I agree. So much so that I have been hesitant to admit that I have a litter due and share in the excitement and nervousness of it here. I was thinking about this yesterday as I was washing my show dog, even though I was sooo tired, babying my expectant bitch, coaxing her to eat and making sure my cut down boy got his attention and got his teeth brushed. And how much work it is to be an exhibitor and breeder and how much of our money goes to taking care of the dogs. And that's the easy part. The biggest investment is our hearts. I'm not patting my own back here. This is the same scenario for the breeder/exhibitors that I have had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know a little at dog shows. The apathetic B/E is the rarity. The more litters, the more exhausting it is. The more tirelessly they have to work. These breeders are amazing to me and are the ones who are making it possible for there to be nice Yorkies in the world. They live a different life than the non-breeder... I have tickets to a Broadway play next Friday that I received as a Christmas gift that I probably won't be going to... how many weddings, etc. do breeders have to miss because of doggie obligations? All this without even mentioning the work it takes to show a Yorkie. The travel, the lack of sleep, the motels, the money, the stress, and then getting a labor-intensive Yorkie groomed so that it can compete with the professionally handled dogs int the ring. It is a collective labor of love and there is a culture of people who have this calling to do this with their lives. I don't think they deserve to be judged by anyone who has not done it themselves. For one not involved with breeding/exhibiting to decide the number of litters a breeder/exhibitor should have just does not makes sense.

Originally Posted by BFar (Post 3378765)

:thumbup:

I agree. So much so that I have been hesitant to admit that I have a litter due and share in the excitement and nervousness of it here. I was thinking about this yesterday as I was washing my show dog, even though I was sooo tired, babying my expectant bitch, coaxing her to eat and making sure my cut down boy got his attention and got his teeth brushed. And how much work it is to be an exhibitor and breeder and how much of our money goes to taking care of the dogs. And that's the easy part. The biggest investment is our hearts. I'm not patting my own back here. This is the same scenario for the breeder/exhibitors that I have had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know a little at dog shows. The apathetic B/E is the rarity. The more litters, the more exhausting it is. The more tirelessly they have to work. These breeders are amazing to me and are the ones who are making it possible for there to be nice Yorkies in the world. They live a different life than the non-breeder... I have tickets to a Broadway play next Friday that I received as a Christmas gift that I probably won't be going to... how many weddings, etc. do breeders have to miss because of doggie obligations? All this without even mentioning the work it takes to show a Yorkie. The travel, the lack of sleep, the motels, the money, the stress, and then getting a labor-intensive Yorkie groomed so that it can compete with the professionally handled dogs int the ring. It is a collective labor of love and there is a culture of people who have this calling to do this with their lives. I don't think they deserve to be judged by anyone who has not done it themselves. For one not involved with breeding/exhibiting to decide the number of litters a breeder/exhibitor should have just does not makes sense.

Originally Posted by BFar (Post 3378765)

:thumbup:

I agree. So much so that I have been hesitant to admit that I have a litter due and share in the excitement and nervousness of it here. I was thinking about this yesterday as I was washing my show dog, even though I was sooo tired, babying my expectant bitch, coaxing her to eat and making sure my cut down boy got his attention and got his teeth brushed. And how much work it is to be an exhibitor and breeder and how much of our money goes to taking care of the dogs. And that's the easy part. The biggest investment is our hearts. I'm not patting my own back here. This is the same scenario for the breeder/exhibitors that I have had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know a little at dog shows. The apathetic B/E is the rarity. The more litters, the more exhausting it is. The more tirelessly they have to work. These breeders are amazing to me and are the ones who are making it possible for there to be nice Yorkies in the world. They live a different life than the non-breeder... I have tickets to a Broadway play next Friday that I received as a Christmas gift that I probably won't be going to... how many weddings, etc. do breeders have to miss because of doggie obligations? All this without even mentioning the work it takes to show a Yorkie. The travel, the lack of sleep, the motels, the money, the stress, and then getting a labor-intensive Yorkie groomed so that it can compete with the professionally handled dogs int the ring. It is a collective labor of love and there is a culture of people who have this calling to do this with their lives. I don't think they deserve to be judged by anyone who has not done it themselves. For one not involved with breeding/exhibiting to decide the number of litters a breeder/exhibitor should have just does not makes sense.

Originally Posted by TammyJM (Post 3378800)

I have read through this whole thread and I am still sitting here with the same feelings that I began with. Quite honestly, I don't care what ribbon and/or status a dog achieves...I care about their spirit....their happiness that they will experience in their short lives. I don't care how "nice", "clean", "high-tech" a kennel is or how many "nannies" they have hired. Do you think that these dogs would chose this life for themselves....if that had a choice, that is. My local homeless animal shelter is all of this mentioned (new, nice, clean, high-tech, good vet care) but these dogs beg to get out of there and do you think that the "show Yorkies" think that their situation is any better? Difference between the two is that at least the shelter dogs are not being bred.

I know that I wouldn't like it if I were them and if you say that you feel they are happy, then try trading places with them for awhile....you in the kennel, them on a comfy couch. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by BFar (Post 3378765)

:thumbup:

I agree. So much so that I have been hesitant to admit that I have a litter due and share in the excitement and nervousness of it here. I was thinking about this yesterday as I was washing my show dog, even though I was sooo tired, babying my expectant bitch, coaxing her to eat and making sure my cut down boy got his attention and got his teeth brushed. And how much work it is to be an exhibitor and breeder and how much of our money goes to taking care of the dogs. And that's the easy part. The biggest investment is our hearts. I'm not patting my own back here. This is the same scenario for the breeder/exhibitors that I have had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know a little at dog shows. The apathetic B/E is the rarity. The more litters, the more exhausting it is. The more tirelessly they have to work. These breeders are amazing to me and are the ones who are making it possible for there to be nice Yorkies in the world. They live a different life than the non-breeder... I have tickets to a Broadway play next Friday that I received as a Christmas gift that I probably won't be going to... how many weddings, etc. do breeders have to miss because of doggie obligations? All this without even mentioning the work it takes to show a Yorkie. The travel, the lack of sleep, the motels, the money, the stress, and then getting a labor-intensive Yorkie groomed so that it can compete with the professionally handled dogs int the ring. It is a collective labor of love and there is a culture of people who have this calling to do this with their lives. I don't think they deserve to be judged by anyone who has not done it themselves. For one not involved with breeding/exhibiting to decide the number of litters a breeder/exhibitor should have just does not makes sense.

Originally Posted by megansmomma (Post 3378802)

There might have been a point in time that I too thought that your local dog shelter was considered what a show breeder calls a kennel. But now that I have become more educated on the subject I know this is not true. How could you possibly expect to have well trained show dogs working to earn championships in a ring if they were kept like in those kinds of conditions. That's like saying you could walk into the local shelter and pick up a dog on your way to show. :confused:

Originally Posted by TammyJM (Post 3378800)

I have read through this whole thread and I am still sitting here with the same feelings that I began with. Quite honestly, I don't care what ribbon and/or status a dog achieves...I care about their spirit....their happiness that they will experience in their short lives. I don't care how "nice", "clean", "high-tech" a kennel is or how many "nannies" they have hired. Do you think that these dogs would chose this life for themselves....if that had a choice, that is. My local homeless animal shelter is all of this mentioned (new, nice, clean, high-tech, good vet care) but these dogs beg to get out of there and do you think that the "show Yorkies" think that their situation is any better? Difference between the two is that at least the shelter dogs are not being bred.

I know that I wouldn't like it if I were them and if you say that you feel they are happy, then try trading places with them for awhile....you in the kennel, them on a comfy couch. :rolleyes: