Question about Exhibitor / Show Breeder litters
 

I was hoping to understand a few things, bc I'm thrown for a bit of a loop at the moment.

So, there is a member here who is purporting to be a Show Breeder, however, on one of the breeder listing sites, I'm reading that this breeder states they 'breed some bitches who are out of standard', and breeds 5-10 litters a YEAR. It also appears that this member may be a member of the YTCA.

Does this seem off to only me? From what I've seen here at YT, the Exhibitors breed *maybe* 1 litter every 1-2 years, and only if there really is a need for it in their program.

What am I missing here? Or, is this someone who may be talking out of both sides of their mouth? Purporting one thing, while doing another...

I was under the same impression as you- that show breeders tend to breed very few litters and only when they think it will either help their program or advance the breed in general.

Forgetting show breeders all together- 5-10 litters seems like a lot for ANY breeder- I can't imagine someone can have 10 litters a year and really give each litter the necessary attention and properly screen all those homes. If my math is correct, that would mean they ALWAYS, all year long, have more than one litter in the home. I can't imagine... :eek:

Thank you :)...this is exactly what I thought too. I thought the 5-10 thing seemed really off and very excessive. This may be one of those things where someone is trying to benefit by calling themselves a show breeder, when in fact...they may not be.

I thought that too.

That's excessive in "my opinion" but they are show breeders/exhibitors that have beautiful and clean kennels with paid help. I know several show breeders that may produce more than a couple of litters a year but they many champions and still are actively showing and producing some top winning healthy yorkies. However, when one claims to show and you see very little of their breedings in the ring and have that many litters in a year doesn't sound kosher to me. Of course this is my opinion only and I have no clue as to who you are referring too. I haven't had a litter in 3 years and the show breeders/exhibitors in my circle don't have but maybe 1 or 2 litters within a year. But that is just my small circle that I have dealings with. I know alot of show breeders/exhibitors but do not know their breeding program as I do not know them on a personal level.
I would question someone breeding that much and not having them in the ring and claiming to show and it would raise a red flag for me but that's just me :)

Donna

Thanks, Donna - this is my impression too. Meaning, that Exhibitors produce *very* few litters, and even then - only for a need (in most cases) in their program. Maybe this other breeder does have spotless kennels and the dogs are treated like kings and queens...but it doesn't feel kosher to me either.

I'm not sure these kiddos are getting the best vetting, in this case :(...so it makes me wonder about the program, as a whole.

Thanks for the insight :).

Well *coughs*, I can now see why some find Google Earth so fascinating...and revealing. This: ;) and also This: :(.

Don't forget anyone can show, this doesn't mean much. Most show breeders don't call themselves show breeders and, in fact, it seems like hate that term, I think they use words like "Exhibitor Breeder". You could have a puppy mill and call yourself a show breeder, it could just mean you just showed one dog once, and it lost. :D

If this person really is a YTCA member, bragging about 'breed some bitches who are out of standard' would probably be frowned upon. However, it shouldn't be forgotten, that breeders are breeding TO standard, in other words, they are trying to produce pups that will meet standard, and that's why some breeders use breeding dogs that themselves may not be standard, the GOAL is always the important thing. For example, an 8 pound dog is not standard, but she may produce dogs well within standard, a black dog while not specifically standard, may be needed to keep the blue from being diluted too much and correct the a lighter blue mate. Ten litters a year seems excessive to me, and they probably are selling to fill the pet market and NOT to improve the breed. If a breeder uses marketing terms, such as "show breeder" or "champions in bloodline" to me, they are just puppy salesman, and yes, the YTCA has breeders who breed for the wrong reasons. People need to be very careful when researching a breeder, and belonging to a club, means you had to only fool a couple of people, but the YTCA does have some checks and balances in place to eliminate poor breeders. Some people want to join the YTCA, not because they believe in their values, but because they think it will give them prestige, and they will sell more puppies.

There are exhibitors that do produce more than 3 litters a year but they have full time help that are what we'd call nannies like for human kids. But they are still producing champion after champion and have nice healthy dogs and spare NO expense in vetting care ect...but they have the money to do this BUT those that have more than 2 or 3 litters a year and do not produce the champions or have their breedings in the ring to prove breeding the right way isn't kosher to me.

But as I've stated many times there are bad apples in any endeavor and one just has to research and research for the right breeder ect...if what your gut tells you is wrong then go with it...

Donna

Agreed Donna, There are some great breeders that have some wonderful help and do produce more litters than those of us that have a smaller kennel.

Not wanting to pass judgement or affirm this breeder's practices; keep in mind we are lucky to produce 1 possible Champion out of every 6 litters......That being said the more recognized/famous kennels are continousely out in the ring, and Championing more than one dog a year.

Let me add the breeders I'm referring to are a bit more financially stable and do have the money to support their larger kennel.

Yup! I could never afford to have a larger kennel, so I'm happy with the ones I have and the amount of time I am in the ring to show off my dogs or others. Wish every litter could produce more than one quality champion but for the most part we are lucky to have one in two litters LOL...

I don't think I could emotionally go through more than 1 litter a year, even if I did have a larger kennel.

I am glad you are doing a little digging around.:)

Dee i was sorry to hear about your illness and hope you are feeling much better

Thank you Betty. I am much better. if you still have my email, write me. I lost yours.

one shouldn't make assumptions based on Google earth either. For instance, I live on a small farm. I have a HUGE tobacco barn behind my house. Now, it doesn't house yorkies of course but does house a few of those AKC F.C. Beagles my hubby fools with. Mostly tho it is used for a mule and other riding equip and tools. AND a loft for the grandbabies to hide in. LOL

Dee can you pm it to me i don't have that option

Hmmm....6 litters to produce one champion, based on the average yorkie litter of 4 per litter that is 24 dogs to get one champion? Is it really worth bringing 24 lives into this world, just to achieve a goal of one champion yorkie. Are there not already enough yorkies out there of good quality stock to ensure the breed continues? I'm just beginning to think byb's, puppymills and hobby breeders are not the only breeders that need to rethink the entire puppy breeding business. Maybe, just maybe, there are too many show breeders also?

Do the math.....you're not breeding 6 litters in one year.....it's usually 1 or 2 litters a year....so, it's maybe over the course of 4 of 5 years.

Are over breeding, no, we are very seclective in what we would in the ring or breeding quality.....not being kennel blind is the key.

I haven't bred or had a litter this year and before that it was two years.

Very good points. I sometimes forget that anyone can show...but that it doesn't always mean much. I'm not sure, at all, if this person is YTCA...or just sorta positioning themselves as such. But someone is checking on it ;).

Gosh, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to sling mud or anything, bc that wasn't my intention. If it does seem that way, then it's my mistake. More than anything...a few things weren't adding up, which makes the curiosity temperature head upward.

~~~~~

What Jen said is really interesting too...that's a lot of dogs. And even if they do live in a well-attended kennel...it's just quite a volume of dogs per year.

Hmmmm....guess I'm over breeding since I haven't had a litter in 3 1/2 years and the last litter was a litter of two. And a year before that I had a litter of 4 ok I'm over breeding...LOL

You must remember that just because you have two champions it doesn't mean that you will produce another excellent example of the breed, and most good breeders don't do repeat breeding on a sire and damn. You probably will produce some good or even great examples, but probably not another champ, and the reason you want champions is because they are deemed worthy of breeding. They are not better than other dogs per say, but dogs who haven't been given the "seal of approval" many believe should not even be bred. No dog is perfect, but by putting certain qualities together you can create as close to perfection/standard as humanly possible, and of course, I believe health should always be the number one consideration.

The Yorkshire terrier is one of the most challenging breeds to breed, it's really much more complicated to perfect than other breeds, and it's not really for the average breeder. I think a lot of perfectionists who love a challenge are attracted to this breed. Furthermore, some good breeders won't take every dog into the ring that could possibly become a champ; they only take dogs that can improve their line. These 24 puppies you are talking about make wonderful beautiful pets, and good breeders sell on limited registration, as they don't sell breeding rights to pet owners. A breeding dog is never sold without thoroughly knowing someone and mentoring them for years, it's much more than just being "friends" with someone, and a good breeder will insist that the dog must be championed before he can be bred, again this is so unbiased people can access the dog, is the dog truly a great example that should be bred? Many old time breeders understand that it's very possible to get "kennel eyes" and see your dogs through too much love.

Years ago, it probably wasn't that important if only the best of the best were bred, but we do have too many pets available, and unfortunately, good breeders are cutting back their programs, and most won't breed until they have a place for the offspring. I agree with you though, every breeder should always be evaluating their breeding program, and every breeder should always be willing to take back a dog and find it a good home. Like the HSUS spokesman says, "We don't get dogs from good breeders". I've been told time after time that YTCA breeders could never produce all the puppies we need, and that's true, but its also sad, when good breeders stop breeding because they are not enough suitable pet homes available.

I shouldn't speak for JenCar, and she can correct me if I misspeak...but I think she was doing the numbers for this specific one I mentioned with the 5-10 litters a year...I don't think she was intending those numbers be applied toward any/every Exhibitor here.

It has always been my understanding (from the Exhibitors here at YT) that it's more common to only breed 1-2 litters every couple of years. Which is why I found the info this morning so interesting....and wanted to hear some opinions. :)

Hope I didn't open a can of worms....like I mentioned, it's more about some things not adding up :rolleyes:.

I could be wrong, but I think that post could be in response to Mary's post. It does sound like a lot of puppies for just one champion. BUT, it's not like those that are truly invested in this breed would (at least I hope not) will be breeding all 6 litters in one year. I think the math isn't as straight forward. It's more like 1 litter the first year. Evaluation of the pups, study the lineage, figure out the next move (which is a year or two in between breedings) and then try again. At that rate, the quickest the 6 litters will be produced is 5 years. (2 litters the first year, 1 year break, 2 litters 3rd year, 1 year break, 2 litters on year 5. 6 litters, 6 years)
Puppies aren't as readily available this way, and if we assume the dams have a max of 4 at each whelp, then that's 24 pups over the course of 5 years. That's night and day compared to those so called "hobby" breeders (that never showed) or overall pet suppliers that have puppies available year round.

This is an uneducated guess since I have no idea how long it takes to champion a dog, and how much time a breeder puts in evaluating from those champions which two dogs can improve in the next breeding. The reality might be completely different.

Also, understand the average litter in a yorkie is 2 or 3 on occassion 4 and 5 and above is not average.

Again, I reiterate...There are well known, reputable kennels that do have larger kennels.....5 bitches 2 litters, then rest......that's 10 litters.

For my example, I'm assuming the larger kennels are not the norm for exhibitors because of the capital required to pay the extra help needed to raise the 10 litters. That sounds like a stressful but fun job, helping to raise puppies. :) Also, in my very uneducated guess, I went for biggest litter and most frequent. Still, I think that number of puppies produced is very small since everything is calculated, from breeding to whelping to showing. That must eat up a lot of the time in between.

My point is this; if it takes on average 24 dogs to produce a champion, regardless if this takes 1 year or 5, that is still a lot of pups being born just to have a Ch. title behind a name for one dog. Although not all good breeders show, that does not mean a good breeder not involved in showing can not produce a very nice quality pet, which is all the show breeder is producing if those 24 puppies aren't all championed, right?

I think you don't understand, it is not to get a champion title behind the name, the champion title just means that that dog has had approval of others to breed. This may or may not even be legitimate approval, but that's another point. If breeders do not breed Yorkies, who are a good example, the Yorkshire terrier will not look anything like it does right now, it's taken many years to produce these dogs. I think it's very hard to develop an eye if you don't show, and you must remember a good breeders goal is also to preserve and improve the breed.

This is really the main point of good breeders continuing to breed despite the overload I think. Imagine if they just stopped and left all the "pet supply" (I know that sounds crud, but can't think of another way to say it... please take it as I mean it and not how it sounds) to the mills and BYB because there were too many pups... the breed would be unrecognizable after a short time :(. The reputable breeders producing 24 puppies or whatever in whatever time isn't the problem, it is those that don't give a flying flip about anything except the money that's the problem!

Actually no, you are incorrect. Let's take the term "show breeder" aside for one moment, and focus on an "excellent" breeder. This breeder will health test all breeding dams/sires, research pedigrees, to facilitate the best match possible. they will breed Ch to Ch, and not to any Tom, Dick or Harry. They will have their breeding stock evaluated, and this is done at shows.

Many breeders will have potential show quality, that they "could" finish, but elect not too. Why? The reasons are many. Maybe this breeder, thinks this dog is a bit high in the leg, or the muzzle and ear set is a bit long, or too wide. Maybe this dog, doesnt' have quite the temperament for the ring, or maybe they think this dog's coat will not mature to the best perfect silk and color. And maybe, this breeder didn't get quite what they hoped for in that particular mating.

Pat Hastings the author of from Best Intentions to Best in Show, states; "bring into the ring what should be finished.....not what can be finished".

Show breeders should strive to present to the world, the best quality progeny around. NOt just "nice or very nice pet quality". Mayhap the bitch will be too small, or the male a tad large, but all pups should come from the best of informed breeder decision making, which includes pedigree analysis, stud/bitch assessment and weighing of attributes and shortcomings, as well as the vertical as well as horizontal pedigree analysis, and all this prior to breeding.