Royal Canin Questions?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by RoyalCaninCA

Hi Nancy,

If you look through the AAHA questions, I have actually provided extremely detailed information for the specific question: "What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your product line?". The quality and control measures RC has set in place are to ensure that no matter where you source an ingredient from it is safe and precise.

Again, I am here to help in my area of expertise, answering nutrition related questions.

Ashley

Yes, you are very very very detailed, but you still don't answer the questions I've asked. I pretty much got the same thing on the phone reply, how they have specific quality control, I'm not asking about quality control, I'm asking if your vitamins come from China. Who in the company will answer this question? It does involve pet nutrition if it goes into their food.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Yes, you are very very very detailed, but you still don't answer the questions I've asked. I pretty much got the same thing on the phone reply, how they have specific quality control, I'm not asking about quality control, I'm asking if your vitamins come from China. Who in the company will answer this question? It does involve pet nutrition if it goes into their food.

I do know that Fromm and Farmina have both answered this question, I believe. I'll have to find where I found it.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Britster

I do know that Fromm and Farmina have both answered this question, I believe. I'll have to find where I found it.

Yes, I've been able to find the answer from other companies as well. I've also tried emailing the company, since the phone call didn't work. So far, they haven't answered the question, they too have explained quality control. I asked them specifically, do any vitamins and minerals come from China. In some ways, not answering, answers the question.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by RoyalCaninCA

Hi Everyone!

We've touched briefly on carbohydrates throughout our posts on the forum.

Challenge of the evening:

Carbohydrates are considered non-essential for survival. What does that mean for the dog or cat? What is their role in pet food?

Ashley

Carbohydrates are a source of energy (calories) that can be easily metabolized to carbon dioxide and water without producing toxic byproducts that would be taxing to the liver and kidneys. <-- How did I do with that answer?

[Opium88]

Originally Posted by Opium88

I think I softened it with Challenging , lol...
Imust say that Ashley came into this with her armor on. She handles the occasional negativity quite well. The only thing I have to say in argument has to do with the antioxidant issue. Unless you have your pet (and yourself for that matter) on something like Protandim, no amount of any ingredient with antioxidants is going to have even the slightest relevant impact on your level of oxidative stress cells. It all sounds good and healthy , but the reality of it is that every day billions of these cells are created inside of us, and the amount that those well meaning antioxidants alone in your food and drinks kill off is so insignificant that it doesn't even count. Like a massive English Army overrunning 20 well meaning high spirited Scottish men in battle. While she is right about the value of antioxidants, it's kind of a moot point because it makes no difference. The scientist who discovered antioxidants and their importance is also the one who later discovered that he was wrong about their level of effectiveness . you can eat all the corn, bananas, kiwis etc... that you could possibly consume in a day and it wouldn't come close to having any effect on your oxidation levels in your blood. That subject could go a lot deeper but I just woke up and I'm not ready for big words yet. Good morning all!

I think I may have confused free radicals with oxidative stress cells earlier. Whatever. It was morning. I don't do mornings well.

[RoyalCaninCA]

Hi Nancy,

I think what you’re asking is whether or not our ingredients are safe for your pet and all pets. This is the answer I am trying to give you. The safety and nutritional value of the ingredients we use cannot be judged simply by knowing if it comes from China or any other country. Royal Canin takes relationships with each ingredient suppliers extremely seriously. No expense is spared in this area because this is where guaranteeing food safety and quality begins. It takes months and sometimes years for a potential supplier to complete our validation process, and there is an ongoing auditing and validation process that occurs with every supplier we use. If a supplier can’t keep up with our rigorous quality and safety standards, we stop working with them. Period. Simply knowing whether or not an ingredient comes from a particular country does not answer your question about ingredient safety/quality, and continuing to discuss ingredients in this way will not serve any positive purpose. This is a message that needs to get out to all pet owners. We should not participate in vilifying or scapegoating an entity, especially since doing so does not help us understand what food quality and safety is for our pets.

To reiterate, regardless of which country any of our ingredients come from, they all go through a battery of tests BEFORE they are purchased and then further before they are accepted into the plant, and this happens for every single delivery. For example, one of these tests is the NIRS, which confirms that the ingredient is exactly what we ordered, and that it is free from any type of contamination. This means that even if we’re not looking for a particular contaminant, it will be identified and prevented from entering the food chain. Feel free to revisit posts #10, 54, 108, 109 if you would like to review what I already said about the testing that is performed by RC to ensure quality, consistency, and food safety.

So, I’m hoping you see that I have provided the answer to your question. I do not want to continue misleading anyone to thinking that ingredients from China are dangerous, or that not using ingredients from China (or any other country) is a benchmark of safety. That would not only be irresponsible and unjust, but also a gross minimization of what actual food safety and quality consist of.

Regards,
Ashley

[RoyalCaninCA]

Thank you pstinard for your answer, you are absolutely right, carbohydrates are a great source of easily metabolized energy!

Carbohydrates are a class of nutrients that include sugars, starches and fibres. Carbohydrates, as the name suggests, are composed of Carbo-, carbon, and ¬–hydrates, water (H20, or hydrogen and oxygen). Sugars and starches can be digested and absorbed by the body and can provide energy. Fibres, on the other hand are not digested or absorbed by the body and do not directly provide energy. Fibres will remain in the digestive tract, where their functions exist.

Sugars are the most basic form of carbohydrates. They are the building blocks of starches and fibres. Examples of sugars include gluctose and fructose. Did you know glucose is the preferred energy source for the brain?

Starches are the next class of carbohydrates. They are more complex as they are many sugar molecules attached together. Starches are the energy storage form in plants. Glycogen is similar starches, but rather it is the carbohydrate energy storage form in animals.

Fibres are the final class of carbohydrates. Their role in plants is a structural one, providing the “rigid” structure required for plant cells. Fibres can be grouped into different classes: Soluble (absorb water, such as psyllium) or Insoluble (attract or cling to water, such as cellulose), and Fermentable (utilized by the colonic bacteria) or Non-fermentable (not utilized by the colonic bacteria).

But if carbohydrates are not considered essential, why do we use them? First let’s look at what essential means. Essential means the body cannot manufacture or cannot manufacture in sufficient quantities required. Non-essential means that the body can either manufacture sufficient quantities of the nutrient or it is not required for survival. Does non-essential therefore mean not important or beneficial? No. In fact, we consume many beneficial nutrients every day that are not considered essential (think Metamucil for those of us who suffer from constipation).

What kind of roles can carbohydrates play in the body? MANY! Here some examples, just to name a few:

Energy: As we talked about, starches are an excellent source of readily available energy in the body. They provide the same level of energy as protein (about 4 kcal/g). Protein is also suitable energy source, but it is involved in so many other tissues and pathways in the body, it would not be utilizing it for its best abilities…. And I have an analogy for that If you were building a campfire, you could do so using kindling and firewood, or you could do so with bunches of $100 bills. Both will burn. But if you burn the money, then you can't use it for buying things (like using protein for other important roles in the body).... Same goes for energy in the body..... Eliminating carbs and replacing them with fat and protein is possible, but why would you do that.... it's expensive and wasteful.

Satiety: Satiety is the feeling of fullness. After you eat food your stomach expands. This sends a signal to the brain letting you know you’re full. For some dogs (and yes Labs, I’m looking at you) they eat too fast and therefore the satiety sensation doesn’t have time to sink in. Not feeling full can lead to overeating and weight gain. Fibres can play a role here. As I talked about, some absorb water. Psyllium for example can absorb 10x its own weight in water forming a gel. This can help to provide that feeling of fullness that some dogs need.

Gastrointestinal Health: Fibres are not digested and absorbed by the body, which means they remain in the GI tract. This means all their beneficial roles are located here! From promoting GI motility (movement of food through the GI tract) to scraping away dead GI cells, to promoting a beneficial bacteria population in the colon, different types of fibres can contribute to GI health in a variety of different ways.

Texture: Carbohydrates are critical in achieving the final texture of a kibble, which is extra important for dogs and cats. While people rely very heavily on taste to decide if a food is palatable (humans have 9,000 taste buds and 2-10million olfactory cells), dogs and cats rely more heavily on smell mouth feel to decide if a food is palatable (dogs and cats have 1700 and 500 taste buds, and 80-220million and 60-70 million olfactory cells respectively).

Can anyone think of any other benefits of carbohydrates we could touch on?

Ashley

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Yes, you are very very very detailed, but you still don't answer the questions I've asked. I pretty much got the same thing on the phone reply, how they have specific quality control, I'm not asking about quality control, I'm asking if your vitamins come from China. Who in the company will answer this question? It does involve pet nutrition if it goes into their food.

Based on my years in the retail business (and psychology!), I would say that no answer can be construed as an affirmative. I think we can ascertain that the ingredients come from China or some other similar source hence the focus on trying to distract you from a very overt question.


Good sales technique for those who fall for it but not so for those who see through it...


Nice objection handling attempt, though! If I were recording the attempt as a call and screening it for quality, I would grade it as a pass on the audit...lol


Good sales, bad ethics.


I don't even use RC and now I won't for sure...lol

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Yes, you are very very very detailed, but you still don't answer the questions I've asked. I pretty much got the same thing on the phone reply, how they have specific quality control, I'm not asking about quality control, I'm asking if your vitamins come from China. Who in the company will answer this question? It does involve pet nutrition if it goes into their food.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Yes, I've been able to find the answer from other companies as well. I've also tried emailing the company, since the phone call didn't work. So far, they haven't answered the question, they too have explained quality control. I asked them specifically, do any vitamins and minerals come from China. In some ways, not answering, answers the question.

Originally Posted by RoyalCaninCA

Hi Nancy,

I think what you’re asking is whether or not our ingredients are safe for your pet and all pets. This is the answer I am trying to give you. The safety and nutritional value of the ingredients we use cannot be judged simply by knowing if it comes from China or any other country. Royal Canin takes relationships with each ingredient suppliers extremely seriously. No expense is spared in this area because this is where guaranteeing food safety and quality begins. It takes months and sometimes years for a potential supplier to complete our validation process, and there is an ongoing auditing and validation process that occurs with every supplier we use. If a supplier can’t keep up with our rigorous quality and safety standards, we stop working with them. Period. Simply knowing whether or not an ingredient comes from a particular country does not answer your question about ingredient safety/quality, and continuing to discuss ingredients in this way will not serve any positive purpose. This is a message that needs to get out to all pet owners. We should not participate in vilifying or scapegoating an entity, especially since doing so does not help us understand what food quality and safety is for our pets.

To reiterate, regardless of which country any of our ingredients come from, they all go through a battery of tests BEFORE they are purchased and then further before they are accepted into the plant, and this happens for every single delivery. For example, one of these tests is the NIRS, which confirms that the ingredient is exactly what we ordered, and that it is free from any type of contamination. This means that even if we’re not looking for a particular contaminant, it will be identified and prevented from entering the food chain. Feel free to revisit posts #10, 54, 108, 109 if you would like to review what I already said about the testing that is performed by RC to ensure quality, consistency, and food safety.

So, I’m hoping you see that I have provided the answer to your question. I do not want to continue misleading anyone to thinking that ingredients from China are dangerous, or that not using ingredients from China (or any other country) is a benchmark of safety. That would not only be irresponsible and unjust, but also a gross minimization of what actual food safety and quality consist of.

Regards,
Ashley

I have never ever heard of a pet food company that won't answer the VERY BASIC question about where they source their products.

I am actually shocked that this information isn't made readily available to ANYONE who needs/wants to know this information.

And Ashley, I am deeply disappointed in the way that you're clearly talking in circles around this subject, rather than just answering the questions. We all know that you have access to the answers and the fact that you're talking in circles about this to our Members comes off as very disrespectful, purposely misleading, and just dishonest.

If you're here to represent the company - which you clearly are as is obvious in your user name, then why not do just that and and answer your company-specific questions?

If you're here to just educate the general public about pet nutrition out of your enjoyment in educating others - then why do you have "Royal Canin" in your user name?

This feels very uncomfortable to me and I'm not sure this kind of "I'm selling but not selling" is what this section is here for. We have never allowed such an approach in the past from vendors who post here and who also represent a certain pet food as we see the promotion of the food/company by the person as a conflict of interest.

[Yorkiemom1]

This is exactly where I expected this to end up....dam if you do, dam if you dont. Ashley was clearly in a no win situation here. Not at all surprised by this outcome.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

This is exactly where I expected this to end up....dam if you do, dam if you dont. Ashley was clearly in a no win situation here. Not at all surprised by this outcome.

I think the "win" would've been to just simply and honestly and clearly answer questions. When a person clearly talks in circles rather than just say "Yes, we source from China and here's why...." -- it will never, ever come off well, nor as up front. Being truthful and clear is always the right road to take.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by RoyalCaninCA

Hi Nancy,

I think what you’re asking is whether or not our ingredients are safe for your pet and all pets. This is the answer I am trying to give you. The safety and nutritional value of the ingredients we use cannot be judged simply by knowing if it comes from China or any other country. Royal Canin takes relationships with each ingredient suppliers extremely seriously. No expense is spared in this area because this is where guaranteeing food safety and quality begins. It takes months and sometimes years for a potential supplier to complete our validation process, and there is an ongoing auditing and validation process that occurs with every supplier we use. If a supplier can’t keep up with our rigorous quality and safety standards, we stop working with them. Period. Simply knowing whether or not an ingredient comes from a particular country does not answer your question about ingredient safety/quality, and continuing to discuss ingredients in this way will not serve any positive purpose. This is a message that needs to get out to all pet owners. We should not participate in vilifying or scapegoating an entity, especially since doing so does not help us understand what food quality and safety is for our pets.

To reiterate, regardless of which country any of our ingredients come from, they all go through a battery of tests BEFORE they are purchased and then further before they are accepted into the plant, and this happens for every single delivery. For example, one of these tests is the NIRS, which confirms that the ingredient is exactly what we ordered, and that it is free from any type of contamination. This means that even if we’re not looking for a particular contaminant, it will be identified and prevented from entering the food chain. Feel free to revisit posts #10, 54, 108, 109 if you would like to review what I already said about the testing that is performed by RC to ensure quality, consistency, and food safety.

So, I’m hoping you see that I have provided the answer to your question. I do not want to continue misleading anyone to thinking that ingredients from China are dangerous, or that not using ingredients from China (or any other country) is a benchmark of safety. That would not only be irresponsible and unjust, but also a gross minimization of what actual food safety and quality consist of.

Regards,
Ashley

You posted earlier that RC did NOT source protein from China for US and RC foods. Just sayin...

[MarkFromSea]

Analogy: We've come to accept that Japanese car manufacturers set the bar higher for American car manufacturers to follow but Mexican made airbags have killed and maimed people driving those cars. Country of origin for any single ingredient is a major concern for safety!

Based on the run around about Nancy's question, RC has either used in the past, currently uses or hasn't ruled out using them in the future.

Here's one thought, trying to be an optimist here: The possibility exists that RC uses the price point of available Chinese vits and mins to negotiate a lower purchase price of domestically produced vits and mins. This leverage certainly would be something they wouldn't want to lose.

[TxVicki]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I think the "win" would've been to just simply and honestly and clearly answer questions. When a person clearly talks in circles rather than just say "Yes, we source from China and here's why...." -- it will never, ever come off well, nor as up front. Being truthful and clear is always the right road to take.

[Doodlebug]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I think the "win" would've been to just simply and honestly and clearly answer questions. When a person clearly talks in circles rather than just say "Yes, we source from China and here's why...." -- it will never, ever come off well, nor as up front. Being truthful and clear is always the right road to take.

I have to agree with this. I would rather hear "yes and here's why" too.