corn, and generally grain in dog food

[IDPiper]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Why do you think she thought you were confrontational? I didn't read taylor's post like that at all. I thought she did a good job to notify you that the Dog Food Advisor = Human Dentist.

By saying "You do know" made me feel that way because if I did know, I surely wouldn't have asked. If I took it incorrectly, I apologize!!

Yes, I would take the advise of a vet nutritionist over a human dentist for my dog but I question some of the things being said by vet nutritionists also. LOL...maybe I'm just a hippy!!

[107barney]

Originally Posted by IDPiper

I feel that a dogs system is more adapt at handling the bacteria in a fresh raw diet than it is corn. Just my personal opinion based on my research. I don't eat GMOs and I will not feed them to my dog. She has actually gained weight since going to raw. She was about 2 lbs 6 oz before and is at 3 lbs 4 oz now. No more picky and no more runny/bloody poops. This is the diet that woks for me and I don't regret making that change.

I don't agree that a dog's system is more adapt at handling bacteria. Otherwise, they would never get sick Also, there are other concerns like parasites, mycotoxins, etc. that would concern me.

As for GMOs, I hear you. I eat zero processed food and when I do, my friends can attest for me experiencing a claw-like syndrome in my hands. I turn into a lobster. But, my dogs do just fine on grains, and yes, the dreaded corn.

[IDPiper]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I don't agree that a dog's system is more adapt at handling bacteria. Otherwise, they would never get sick Also, there are other concerns like parasites, mycotoxins, etc. that would concern me.

As for GMOs, I hear you. I eat zero processed food and when I do, my friends can attest for me experiencing a claw-like syndrome in my hands. I turn into a lobster. But, my dogs do just fine on grains, and yes, the dreaded corn.

Agree to disagree!

There are a lot of raw feeders out there that have been feeding raw for the life of their dogs and have never had a problem. If this is such a huge issue then why do you not see more evidence of it? You see more evidence of dogs dying from consuming processed foods all the time. That doesn't make a case for the safety of processed foods vs. raw IMO.

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by IDPiper

Agree to disagree!

There are a lot of raw feeders out there that have been feeding raw for the life of their dogs and have never had a problem. If this is such a huge issue then why do you not see more evidence of it? You see more evidence of dogs dying from consuming processed foods all the time. That doesn't make a case for the safety of processed foods vs. raw IMO.

I'm glad raw works for you. But to say "you see more evidence of dogs dying from consuming processed foods..." is a false argument. Right now, there is no tracking method for recording adverse side effects from raw food. Unless and until its tracked the same way as processed foods by the FDA it's really a matter of comparing apples to oranges.

There are some studies in the works looking at the safety of raw diets. This is a link to one of the more comprehensive I've seen.

Raw food diets in companion animals: A critical review


"Clearly, there is some compelling evidence suggesting that raw food diets may be a theoretical risk nutritionally. In addition, raw food poses a substantial risk of infectious disease to the pet, the pet’s environment, and the humans in the household. What is lacking, however, is level 1 evidence from randomized controlled trials or strong level 2 evidence from large cohort studies to evaluate risks or benefits of raw meat diets in pets. There is, though, sufficient evidence available that veterinarians should feel obligated to discuss the human health implications of a client’s decision to use a raw meat-based food for their pet. "

Again, if it works for you, awesome.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by IDPiper

Agree to disagree!

There are a lot of raw feeders out there that have been feeding raw for the life of their dogs and have never had a problem. If this is such a huge issue then why do you not see more evidence of it? You see more evidence of dogs dying from consuming processed foods all the time. That doesn't make a case for the safety of processed foods vs. raw IMO.

I do disagree with you!! There is plenty of evidence and fact that raw feeding poses real risks and those aren't risks I'm willing to take but that's my choice. You're free to feed your dog what you want, or what the human dentist says to feed.

[IDPiper]

I'm referring to people that are openly saying that a raw diet was detrimental to their pet. I guarantee that if my pet suffered from a raw diet I would be screaming my head off to anyone and everyone that would listen. People that have pets that have suffered from a commercial based processed diet certainly do.

She is at no more risk of salmonella than I am as I eat rare red meat from naturally raised, free range beef. As far as the other bacteria, I read that by freezing your meat for at least 2 weeks will kill it. I also don't feel that she is at any more risk to salmonella than dogs that eat a commercially processed food. Cleanliness is a necessity regardless of what you feed.

When I refer to "raw" I am talking about a nutritionally balanced (formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for All Life Stages) raw diet. I don't follow a BARF diet.

[Rhetts_mama]

Salmonella contamination is primarily found in poultry products because its part of their normal flora. Beef tends to be contaminated with E Coli. Commercially prepared raw diets are just as likely to be contaminated as a BARF diet, with some studies suggesting up to a 45% contamination rate of Salmonella in the commercially prepared raw.

Another study showed that when healthy dogs are fed commercially prepared raw food contaminated with Salmonella, they shed the bacteria even though they do not show symptoms of the infection.

So, for some people, feeding even a commercially prepared raw diet puts them at risk. There has been an upswing in the number of drug resistant Salmonella outbreaks. People with compromised immune systems as well as the elderly and infants are at increased risk. Unfortunately, even the normally touted methods of eliminating contamination (bleach and hot water) is minimally effective in eliminating salmonella
(Survival of Salmonella Copenhagen in food bowls fo... [Can Vet J. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI)

[Ellie May]

My girl's food is a bunch of corn starch. She does amazing. Before this food she was pretty much slowly losing the battle with extreme intestinal upset and allergies.

Grains have their place.

For many reasons I don't and won't feed raw.

[ladyjane]

There are people who swear by raw...there are others who won't do it...and there are some who have had sick dogs from it. I know of two who are YTers who won't post about their experiences because they want to avoid the arguments that they feel will come.

Bottom line is that it is not true that dogs don't get sick from salmonella. There are many who believe that all dog food has it, but I don't buy that. We do know that poultry is a source.....

Anyway...here is a link about IBD and it does specifically list salmonella as a possible source.

Inflammatory Bowel Disease

I don't know how common it might be .. don't know about any research about it. I just know it can make a dog very sick.

The only thing I know about corn is that some people's pets have allergies to it. I know of no other real health issues.

I feed my healthy pups kibble and they are fine. To each his own...we have to do what we feel is best for our pups.

[yipyap]

It is interesting to read all the variety of our owners' viewpoints on dog & cat foods. The pet food manufacturing industry took off in our country in the 1900's, as more and more people here began keeping family pets in the new suburban home developments and started to rely on the ready made pet foods sold in the local grocery stores. Our daughter was in the Peace Corp in Ukraine in 2006-9 and when she tried explaining to her first host family (who owned a cat) that in the United States people would purchase "ready-made pet foods", they felt so sorry for our animals eating the same dietary product day after day. She said there were few "grocery stores" in rural Ukraine, and these were only found in large cities and even these groceries were not like the big U.S. grocery stores. People from her vilage were intrigued to have seen a few "packaged pet foods" in the city grocery store and assumed they were for "emergencies"! Her host family fed their cat with homemade food they made from their own leftover, cooked foods--chopped meats & veggies. She said the cat seemed very healthy and would happily eat from its bowl each p.m. the mixture of scraps the mother prepared from their leftovers. (They ate more pork and fish there, chicken and beef was much more expensive.) Apparently, most families in her small rural town had pet birds or cats. Rural dogs were considered expensive and not kept indoors. Now, she saw some living on farms to guard livestock. Dogs in cities were the smaller breeds, but were often considered to be an added expense by most families. One of our daughter's Peace Corp buddies bought a s**tzu puppy in Kiev and paid $200.00 for it--which was expensive in Ukraine--and made her own cooked mixtures of food based on the lady breeder's recommendations. Yes, "Mishka" did get all her shots and did come back with her owner to live in the U.S.A., after passing all her tests. I guess she finally got used to U.S. dog foods, plus healthy scraps from her owner. What a choice owners have here!!

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by yipyap

It is interesting to read all the variety of our owners' viewpoints on dog & cat foods. The pet food manufacturing industry took off in our country in the 1900's, as more and more people here began keeping family pets in the new suburban home developments and started to rely on the ready made pet foods sold in the local grocery stores. Our daughter was in the Peace Corp in Ukraine in 2006-9 and when she tried explaining to her first host family (who owned a cat) that in the United States people would purchase "ready-made pet foods", they felt so sorry for our animals eating the same dietary product day after day. She said there were few "grocery stores" in rural Ukraine, and these were only found in large cities and even these groceries were not like the big U.S. grocery stores. People from her vilage were intrigued to have seen a few "packaged pet foods" in the city grocery store and assumed they were for "emergencies"! Her host family fed their cat with homemade food they made from their own leftover, cooked foods--chopped meats & veggies. She said the cat seemed very healthy and would happily eat from its bowl each p.m. the mixture of scraps the mother prepared from their leftovers. (They ate more pork and fish there, chicken and beef was much more expensive.) Apparently, most families in her small rural town had pet birds or cats. Rural dogs were considered expensive and not kept indoors. Now, she saw some living on farms to guard livestock. Dogs in cities were the smaller breeds, but were often considered to be an added expense by most families. One of our daughter's Peace Corp buddies bought a s**tzu puppy in Kiev and paid $200.00 for it--which was expensive in Ukraine--and made her own cooked mixtures of food based on the lady breeder's recommendations. Yes, "Mishka" did get all her shots and did come back with her owner to live in the U.S.A., after passing all her tests. I guess she finally got used to U.S. dog foods, plus healthy scraps from her owner. What a choice owners have here!!

There are many people here who home cook there food for there dogs here but it's important to have a recipe written by a nutritionist and to use a supplement or it could cause your dog more harm then good.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

My girl's food is a bunch of corn starch. She does amazing. Before this food she was pretty much slowly losing the battle with extreme intestinal upset and allergies.

Grains have their place.

For many reasons I don't and won't feed raw.

It's amazing Ellie may is still alive. You'd think the corn starch would've killed the old goat by now.

[ladyjane]

So much for freezing killing salmonella:

A national outbreak of Salmonella enteritidis i... [N Engl J Med. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by 107barney

It's amazing Ellie may is still alive. You'd think the corn starch would've killed the old goat by now.

Can't forget the other main ingredient - soy! And her last bloodwork was..near perfect, I think? So I don't think the dreaded corn is negatively affecting her. Oh well if it is because she is happy. In fact, when she was eating grain free food (non hydrolyzed), she was pooping gray liquid. Actually, when she eats anything that "carnivores" are designed to eat she doesn't do too well. Dogs do not = wolves.

Originally Posted by ladyjane

So much for freezing killing salmonella:

A national outbreak of Salmonella enteritidis i... [N Engl J Med. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI

LOL

__________________

I think dogs can do well on many different diets. Feed what you are comfortable with. I think if an owner is really afraid of corn then they shouldn't feed it. There is no question, dogs can do well on raw. The associated risks are not worth it to me when there are other diets that they can do well on. That to me has nothing to do with corn. BTW, there is a long list of bacteria of concern. Salmonella is only one.

[IDPiper]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

So much for freezing killing salmonella:

A national outbreak of Salmonella enteritidis i... [N Engl J Med. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI

When I talked about freezing I did say, "other bacteria" because I know that freezing does not kill salmonella.