Jackson's not feeling well. :(

[Ellie May]

It does eliminate the corn and rice, but it adds potato, pea, bison, sweet potato. That may not be a bad thing, but we don't know everything that can set the pancreas off.

A couple of us seem to have had some trouble with white potato in our pancreatitis pups. So there is a non fatty ingredient that could present a problem for a few dogs. I'm not so sure sweet potato is always the first choice right after an acute episode. Would be very good questions for a veterinary nutritionist.

So if your vet thinks there are some problem ingredients in the newer foods, that may be part of his reasoning to try and point you in another direction.

[Britster]

I gotcha.

Makes total sense.

I saw this ingredient, too, in the Purina:
menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity),

Isn't that pretty... bad? Makes me nervous.

The Dog Food Project - Menadione (Vitamin K3)

[Ellie May]

It is considered bad by some and not by others. I didn't like it much. Now I'm not sure what to make of it. Either way, I'm stuck feeding it also because it's an ingredient in HA.

Ellie lives on corn starch and soy. Doing better GI-wise than she has in a couple years. So I try to just not think about it much. Garlic in dog food to me is like corn in dog food to you. It doesn't make sense to me why any company would use it, I hate the idea, I think it should always be avoided. But it's in HA and I've just had to learn to not think about it because the food could be saving my girl's life.

And even if menadione is thought to cause harm, he doesn't have to be on it long term, so with that in mind I wouldn't worry about it at all.

[kdhawks]

I am way behind! Been out of town and just now catching up. I am so sorry to hear that Jackson has been so sick! Glad he is home now with you! I'm sure you and the vet can come to an agreement about what food is best for Jackson now. You are such an awesome mama to him.

I'll be thinking of Jackson (and you!) - sending positive thoughts that he continues to improve!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

It is considered bad by some and not by others. I didn't like it much. Now I'm not sure what to make of it. Either way, I'm stuck feeding it also because it's an ingredient in HA.

Ellie lives on corn starch and soy. Doing better GI-wise than she has in a couple years. So I try to just not think about it much. Garlic in dog food to me is like corn in dog food to you. It doesn't make sense to me why any company would use it, I think it's ridic, I hate the idea, I think it should always be avoided. But it's in HA and I've just had to learn to not think about it because the food could be saving my girl's life.

And even if menadione is thought to cause harm, he doesn't have to be on it long term, so with that in mind I wouldn't worry about it at all.

You hit the nail on the head. That's how I feel, definitely.

And oh yeah, I'm not worried about one or two bags of it. But I am not sure I'd feel comfortable at all feeding it long term, definitely.



Another question (that I should have thought of to ask the vet today)... how long until you think I can exercise him like normal? I am not going to push him obviously but knowing Jackson, after a few days in the house, he's going to need to *do* something. And since we can't really do trick training, not yet anyways, I am going to have to keep him occupied somehow. Honestly, we haven't been doing much anyways because of the heat. But I am not sure how long I should avoid visiting my dads house with the pool and everything (it's a chlorine pool, not a salt water pool like my uncles). Because if he's feeling up to it, he WILL be jumping in that pool if we are over there. I just don't want to allow him to over-do it and didn't know how long that sort of stuff should be avoided.

[Ellie May]

I know of no real exercise restrictions with pancreatitis. I'd hold off the walks for a few days. Then short leash walks only for awhile would probably be best.

I'd talk to the vet about swimming. The possibility of gulping heavily chlorinated water is concerning. So I'd say this is out for awhile.

Also though, you can stop him from not jumping in. You'll be right there to slap hands when people try to give him food. He probably should be watched around grass because eating it may not be good for him now.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by Britster

Yeah, definitely. I have no qualms about staying on the RX food for a while if needed.

He basically gave me the quick shpeel about allergies to food, particularly grain, are really low, around 2-3% or something. Which I did know. I didn't argue w/ him at all because I agree with him but I still have a belief that dogs don't need grains. It wasn't about me thinking he was allergic. But I no longer have a totally "healthy" dog either so I am totally willing to do whatever is best for him.

I am curious what these types of diets are considered (RX, SD, Iams, etc) if they aren't "natural". I mean, that word is thrown around a lot, lol, but I was always brought up that natural is better in general. So is the RX diet considered... "non-natural" LOL? I just found that funny.

I think you are right in that he recommended what he simply knows and is comfortable with and didn't want me going out and buying him a bag of Orijen or something. I am sure he sees a lot of idiots who go out and buy the highest protein/fat food there is and overfeed their dog or something and they end up in the hospital with him. So maybe if I show him the ingredients to NB, he will tell me his thoughts. Should I print out a page for our visit on Thursday... I don't ever wanna come across as "know-it-all" or too snobby or anything, like I am not listening to his advice. Just want to know his thoughts. But I am not good with confrontation, either, lol and am very quick to say "okay" and just do what they say.

About your belief: For the sake of argument consider the wolf in the wild who hunts a rabbit and eats the whole thing. Are we agreed that this happens?

Exactly though what did he eat? If the rabbit just had a meal of grasses, berries seeds and whatever rabbits eat in the wild, and has a full stomach, then in fact the wolf has ingested this and the rabbit's intestines, so predigested non meat foods. On TV the wildlife programs show the order in which an animal is consumed after it is killed... I believe the guts is in the top 3. Also may be given to wild pups as that is where the digestive enzymes and bacteria are, and would be easier for the youngsters to digest. ... just something to think about....


As for your vet visit: call in advance and let the vet know that you want to discuss some specific dog foods and nutrition with him in more detail. Let him know you would be willing to pay for an extended office visit, to accomodate for the extra time this may involve. This tells them that you are serious and willing to pay for his expertise on the subject. He will appreciate your consideration that his time is important and that his knowledge is valued. It also allows the office to accomodate your request and will allow him to adjust his scheduling accordingly.

'Natural' vs 'Rx' diets: "Natural' diets are just that, or supposed to be all natural, or ingredients found in nature. Organic? IDK, and I am not sure if the FDA backs these claims, as they are getting involved with the same battle with food labeling in the grocery stores. So, if these foods are not regulated, then I am guessing here, but there may be issues with consistency, which would not affect a 'healthy' dog per se, but may not be the best choice for a dog that may now be prone to pancreatitis.

Prescription diets are scientifically developed and manufactured within specific guidelines to be beneficial for specific disorders in pets. Any deviation in the process could cause illness and/or unbalanced nutritional disorders in the pets being fed the diets. Natural? Maybe not, but a consistant, proven recipe for specific ailments, and may be considered 'supportive medical care'.

Two ingredients in the foods you are looking at have raised some concern with me. One is Bison. This, I believe, would be considered an 'exotic' protein source. Is Bison regulated so that you're feeding the same, consistant quality of food with each bag your open to feed your dog?

Lamb has become a popular ingredient in pet foods recently, and is often used as an alternative protein when dealing with protein allergies. Some dogs do well on it, others cannot tolerate it.

Your vet recommended the foods he did from his prior experience and education in the field. He has confidence that these foods will not hamper Jackson's recovery in any way, and are balanced and safe to sustain growth and maintenance of the canine body.

Also, watch the oils. Canola oil may not be the best, as it is a by-product of a manufacturing process of something else, corn I think. It used to be discarded, till some genius decided we could eat it and he could make money selling it. In some conditions, salmon oil may not be recommended.

As for my nickel's worth, lol... I'd ask him about Coconut oil. But that's just me. You may want to ask him for a better quality, okay if it's more expensive diet that would be good for Jackson and that you would personally feel better about feeding him. Sometimes vet's choices involve what the 'average' dog owner is willing to do for their pet, and how much the 'average' dog owner is willing to spend on food.

I'd print out anything you want to talk about, maybe leave it with him if he agrees to do futher research on a food for Jackson. Make a list of your questions and concerns too, and a copy for him that will jog his memory after a busy day... also tell him that Jackson is a 'performace' dog.... you need recommendations on exercise and training, makes sense that you're seeking a better grade food...

[kjc]

Originally Posted by Britster

Yes, I agree with you. I definitely am his advocate and need to learn to speak up when necessary!

I briefly told him on the phone today that the TOTW was 25% protein and 15% fat and he said "Well, it's not the fat percentage, all the time but the ingredients." So that's what leads me to believe maybe I should show him.

I agree with you. I think that is what he meant by "natural foods". It just sort of amused me because I'm thinking, so this RX food is unnatural? LOL. Just being a dork. I didn't say that to him!

Here is a comparision:
Purina E/N:
Brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, chicken meal, animal fat preserved with mixedtocopherols (form of Vitamin E), coconut oil, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, animal digest, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, sodium bicarbonate, salt, soybean oil, fish oil, zinc proteinate, choline chloride, Vitamin E supplement, dried colostrum, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, copper proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

Crude Protein (Min) 23.0% Crude Fat (Min) 10.5%

NB Bison (Lean Meat) and Potato:
Sweet Potatoes, Bison, Potato Protein, Pea Protein, Canola Oil (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Potato Fiber, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride, Salmon Oil (a source of DHA), Choline Chloride, Taurine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

Crude Protein 20.0% minimum Crude Fat 10.0%


It actually doesn't look that different to me, it just eliminates the corn and rice mainly.

Oooooh! But the E/N adds dried colostrum (mama's first milk) and animal digest... and coconut oil! hmmmm! lol. Garlic keeps the vampires away...JK IDK... I do know that Vitamin K is given to dogs that have ingested wafarin (rat poison) and has to do with blood clotting. Whether the amount or type they add into the food does anything, IDK.

[yorkietalkjilly]

I am so glad he is home with you and on his way to wellness. Great, great news.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Britster

I know you homecook, would you say you think it is indeed worth it? Or if you had a dog like Jackson, who is pretty healthy thus far except for this big issue now, lol... would you just say it's easier to stick to kibble?

Home cooking for my dogs has worked for us. It's the right choice for me. I think you and Jackson should stick with kibble

[MauiGirl]

Hey Britt, I'm just catching up on YT and saw this huge thread. Wow, I'm so sorry for all Jackson (and you) have gone thru, and hope he makes a speedy recovery.

Good luck finding the right food and treats to keep him healthy; you have some great resources here to supplement the info your vet gives you.

Hugs to you and Jackson!

[JERSEY BOY]

Good Morning Jackson hope you are feeling better today

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I know of no real exercise restrictions with pancreatitis. I'd hold off the walks for a few days. Then short leash walks only for awhile would probably be best.

I'd talk to the vet about swimming. The possibility of gulping heavily chlorinated water is concerning. So I'd say this is out for awhile.

Also though, you can stop him from not jumping in. You'll be right there to slap hands when people try to give him food. He probably should be watched around grass because eating it may not be good for him now.

Thanks! Yeah, I could stop him from jumping it for sure. But I didn't want to have to if it wasn't necessary. He enjoys the water so much and it's such a great form of exercise for him in the summer. I'll ask if swims with his lifejacket on are better, since his head doesn't really go under ever with it on... it rarely goes under with it off, but occasionally it will, so lifejacket may be better.

Btw, I just thought of something. Don't know why this just crossed my mind. You might remember I posted a thread a few months ago, maybe May-ish, that he yelped when I barely touched his side a few times in one day -- thought it was odd. Maybe it was pancreatitis, he just wasn't showing any other symptoms, I wonder if it had been building up since then and all the food Friday just made it completely flare up? Just a thought.

Originally Posted by kjc

About your belief: For the sake of argument consider the wolf in the wild who hunts a rabbit and eats the whole thing. Are we agreed that this happens?

Exactly though what did he eat? If the rabbit just had a meal of grasses, berries seeds and whatever rabbits eat in the wild, and has a full stomach, then in fact the wolf has ingested this and the rabbit's intestines, so predigested non meat foods. On TV the wildlife programs show the order in which an animal is consumed after it is killed... I believe the guts is in the top 3. Also may be given to wild pups as that is where the digestive enzymes and bacteria are, and would be easier for the youngsters to digest. ... just something to think about....


As for your vet visit: call in advance and let the vet know that you want to discuss some specific dog foods and nutrition with him in more detail. Let him know you would be willing to pay for an extended office visit, to accomodate for the extra time this may involve. This tells them that you are serious and willing to pay for his expertise on the subject. He will appreciate your consideration that his time is important and that his knowledge is valued. It also allows the office to accomodate your request and will allow him to adjust his scheduling accordingly.

'Natural' vs 'Rx' diets: "Natural' diets are just that, or supposed to be all natural, or ingredients found in nature. Organic? IDK, and I am not sure if the FDA backs these claims, as they are getting involved with the same battle with food labeling in the grocery stores. So, if these foods are not regulated, then I am guessing here, but there may be issues with consistency, which would not affect a 'healthy' dog per se, but may not be the best choice for a dog that may now be prone to pancreatitis.

Prescription diets are scientifically developed and manufactured within specific guidelines to be beneficial for specific disorders in pets. Any deviation in the process could cause illness and/or unbalanced nutritional disorders in the pets being fed the diets. Natural? Maybe not, but a consistant, proven recipe for specific ailments, and may be considered 'supportive medical care'.

Two ingredients in the foods you are looking at have raised some concern with me. One is Bison. This, I believe, would be considered an 'exotic' protein source. Is Bison regulated so that you're feeding the same, consistant quality of food with each bag your open to feed your dog?

Lamb has become a popular ingredient in pet foods recently, and is often used as an alternative protein when dealing with protein allergies. Some dogs do well on it, others cannot tolerate it.

Your vet recommended the foods he did from his prior experience and education in the field. He has confidence that these foods will not hamper Jackson's recovery in any way, and are balanced and safe to sustain growth and maintenance of the canine body.

Also, watch the oils. Canola oil may not be the best, as it is a by-product of a manufacturing process of something else, corn I think. It used to be discarded, till some genius decided we could eat it and he could make money selling it. In some conditions, salmon oil may not be recommended.

As for my nickel's worth, lol... I'd ask him about Coconut oil. But that's just me. You may want to ask him for a better quality, okay if it's more expensive diet that would be good for Jackson and that you would personally feel better about feeding him. Sometimes vet's choices involve what the 'average' dog owner is willing to do for their pet, and how much the 'average' dog owner is willing to spend on food.

I'd print out anything you want to talk about, maybe leave it with him if he agrees to do futher research on a food for Jackson. Make a list of your questions and concerns too, and a copy for him that will jog his memory after a busy day... also tell him that Jackson is a 'performace' dog.... you need recommendations on exercise and training, makes sense that you're seeking a better grade food...

Thanks for your fantastic post. I'm not going to get into the whole food debate right now just because it's been done so many times before, lol. I feel just how Ellie May feels about garlic, like she said. I don't feel corn, or grains, are a necessary part of their diet but I don't think it's going to necessarily hurt them, either. I don't think the amount that a wolf eats is significant enough to be considered a major part of their diet. I'm also not necessarily saying our canine pets ARE wolves, either, or anything. But yeah, there's my brief feelings. If you do a search, you can see some of my past thoughts.

But now I am in a different situation. I do have a "sick" dog and I am NOT an expert in this, lol. So I'm re-learning everything I already "knew" and making it work for Jackson and what I feel he will do best on in his current situation. It's hard for me because he was sincerely doing so well on his previous diet, minus all the junky human foods he was consuming, so this is weird for me. But like I've said, and even said in the past before this happened, if my dog NEEDS to be on an RX food I wouldn't hesitate but that I didn't like certain brands of food for a perfectly healthy dog. But, I suppose my dog is no more "perfectly healthy" so yeah.

Also, that is a great question about bison. I read it was a very lean meat source which I thought was a good thing but yes, I am not sure where it's supplied from. Natural Balance also has a Reduced Calorie formula which does contain some grains but very low in fat and calories.

Believe me, I am taking all of your advice into my brain, taking the advice and expertise of Jackson's vet, as well as trying to inform MYSELF so that I feel like I have some knowledge about what is going into Jackson's mouth and feeling confident about it. I always felt very confident about his diet before so it's odd having this lack of it right now.

[Britster]

Oh, and Jackson seems to be great this AM! Still a little tired but honestly that's pretty normal of him in the mornings. He does tend to be slow moving at this time.

He slept from 1am-9:30am without having to use the bathroom at all. He went pee this morning but no poop at all.

I've read that smaller more frequent meals are suggested especially after this condition because the pancreas takes a while to heal. And to also switch foods VERY slowly when/if I decide to. So, since they gave me the E/N kibble and no canned... I don't know how I'm going to get Jackson to eat? He used to really only eat once per day most of the time (kibble mixed with wet). I mean, is it ok if he's just munching right now and not on a solid schedule? I am not sure what the protocol is for the next few days at least. Should I go to the vets office and pick up the E/N canned too and ask if it's okay to mix a dab in?

[BonBon]

Brit, I've been away for a few days and I'm just now reading about Jackson. Poor baby! I'm so happy that he's back home with you and getting all the love and care he needs. Please give him a big hug for me and tell him no more scaring us!

Hugs,
Bonny