Four year old Yorkie won't stop itching and licking

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Steroids may not be working in this case because 1) they just aren't going to work for food allergies in this case, or 2) this dog doesn't have a food allergy at all. Maybe it's a fungal infection or mites or, or, or...


And I have an example from my own dog that proves that they can work for food allergies. Not all ddrugs affect all dogs the same. The same goes for food. I know yours do really well on HA. It was a huge waste of time for mine... as was Z/D Ultra...

yeah because you said the ha affected the stools too hard does the same for mine and ultra z/d made all 3 of my dogs itch including my non-allergy dogs but that food works for some dogs.

I would bet this dog gets off chicken diet and that skin clears up alot better - I would think if the vet had a brain the first thing he did was a mite scraping but then again i would not be surprised if not lollll

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by dwerten

yeah because you said the ha affected the stools too hard does the same for mine and ultra z/d made all 3 of my dogs itch including my non-allergy dogs but that food works for some dogs.

I would bet this dog gets off chicken diet and that skin clears up alot better - I would think if the vet had a brain the first thing he did was a mite scraping but then again i would not be surprised if not lollll

They did no skin scrapings at all.
And that I do not understand...

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

If Atopica works for 1 dog in the world, should it work for all dogs?
If a steroid works for 1 dog in the world for food allergies, or any allergy, for that matter - should it work for all dogs?



A medication will not work for your dog just bc it works for other dogs...but I think you know this, don't you ?

yeah but steroids pretty much kill it for all dogs and why it is the number one drug of choice by vets lollll

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

They did no skin scrapings at all.
And that I do not understand...

yeah that is vet 101 with an itchy dog scary - dd had 3-4 and then we used revolution just to be 100% sure not scabies before she had any drugs. She was under for her spay and i said scrape her whole body i want to make sure not mites as she itched so much so we covered that one real well. It all started at 6 mos old and she had just had her shots and then i had just switched to artemis holistic food with chicken in it and she has been a mess ever since

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Again, I think this statement in red is so medically misleading ! My Wylie has Cushings - and this is an extremely complicated disease, and there is already so much misinformation out there. What you are talking about above is not just "Cushings" - rather, it is Iatrogenic Cushings (which is VERY specific) - a pet has symptoms of Cushings bc exogenous cortisone is being GIVEN, not bc the adrenals are producing it. Iatrogenic Cushings will often resolve once the steroid med can be stopped (if possible) for whatever reason it's being given in the first place.



Because this is how your 1 dog reacted, this does not mean it applies to the general population of dogs....that's what I'm trying to say, what I think others were trying to say, and this is what I've read in the research as well as what the Derms with whom I've consulted said. I think it's great you're sharing your experience about your dog, however, it appeared (to me anyway) that you were making a generalized statement about the way steroids worked. That's all...

I do not know alot about cushings as my dog does not have it but i do know they were concerned when dd was on prednisone and they were freaking out as she looked like a cushings dog with a pot belly , cumedomes on her skin and loss of hair so they immediatel weened her off of prednisone. Now she has not had that on temarilp and her blood work was fine but i think there is concern as i hear it over and over that the long term use of steroids can affect the adrenal glands especially if people are using steroids daily and not every other day as then you are not allowing the adrenals to function on their own and eventually will lead to other health issues.

Steroids as well as other drugs like atopica have their problems and why i tried to avoid like crazy using any drugs but it came down to quality of life for dee dee and me lolll as it is very frustrating to see a dog itch themselves to death.

I still feel strongly about the food and steroids though lolllll

ok so answer this why can you not determine food allergy by blood like environmental if the drugs you use for environmental like atopica and steroids help them both?

[dwerten]

ok so just read this below now my question is so should i not be concerned raising dee dee's steroids as i would like to raise them but am concerned and this was one of my concerns so giving more steroids what do i need to be concerned with and prepared for as she is hypothyroid and mvd but her allergies are the biggest of concern and frustration

Hyperadrenocorticism (Cushing's Syndrome) in Dogs

Occasionally, a dog might have a diagnosis of iatrogenic Cushing's disease. This is not an adrenal disorder, but rather it is caused by the administration of steroids (given to treat other diseases) to a dog. Long-term administration of steroids can cause a dog to exhibit all the classic signs of Cushing's disease. In this case, the excessive steroids are not being produced in the body, they are being provided as a form of medication to your pet.

[dwerten]

here is some more info

food allergies

here is another link that says food allergy tied to poor response to steroids

http://www.aztecanimalclinic.com/allergy.htm

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by dwerten

ok so just read this below now my question is so should i not be concerned raising dee dee's steroids as i would like to raise them but am concerned and this was one of my concerns so giving more steroids what do i need to be concerned with and prepared for as she is hypothyroid and mvd but her allergies are the biggest of concern and frustration

Hyperadrenocorticism (Cushing's Syndrome) in Dogs

Occasionally, a dog might have a diagnosis of iatrogenic Cushing's disease. This is not an adrenal disorder, but rather it is caused by the administration of steroids (given to treat other diseases) to a dog. Long-term administration of steroids can cause a dog to exhibit all the classic signs of Cushing's disease. In this case, the excessive steroids are not being produced in the body, they are being provided as a form of medication to your pet.

Okay.... *what* are you asking here? I just covered this very thing above - Iatrogenic Cushings - and said exactly what it was. You're basically repeating what I posted above....?

[Wylie's Mom]

On second thought....this thread is NOT about Cushings - if there are more questions about Cushings - please start a different thread. This has gone off topic enough. If the OP comes back, let's leave their thread for them to have some room for their questions.

I think we've covered what they need to know .

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Okay.... *what* are you asking here? I just covered this very thing above - Iatrogenic Cushings - and said exactly what it was. You're basically repeating what I posted above....?

i was asking being on steroids and increasing doseage what are the cause for concern in relation to cushings? so if i increase dd steroids do i not need to be worried about her getting cushings ever?

I think it is all relevant to this dog as this dog probably has allergies by the looks of pics etc and steroids is a drug the dog is on and will probably be on again and everything here is on topic as it is all tied to allergies so important for people with allergy dogs to know and op to know everything about it the good bad the ugly which is other diseases that can stem from steroid use - I am always trying to learn as well and i know your expertise is cushings and this constantly comes up with me using steroids with dd.

hey girl we have had op leave because people have told them go to a vet lollll when they were seeking info lollll maybe op is on vacation or has gone to derm but may be helpful to others including my self lolll

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by dwerten

here is another link that says food allergy tied to poor response to steroids

Pet Care Library: Allergies in Dogs

To the OP, just fyi - this is *not* what it says in this link, I'll copy/paste what it says (this happens to be one of my favorite links on allergies, btw, so I'm very familiar w/ the content ): "We recommend testing for food allergy when the clinical signs have been present for several months, when the dog has a poor response to steroids, or when a very young dog itches without other apparent causes of allergy. "

^^^That is far different than "food allergy tied to poor response..." <--- to me, that can read as "food allergy IS tied to a poor response".

Again, because "a" dog or some dogs don't respond to a medication, it does not mean that it won't work for another dog. EVERY dog/case is different and unique.

The allergic response is partly an inflammatory response and steroids are not only an immunosuppressant, they are powerful anti-inflammatories, no matter the soure of the inflammation.

[dwerten]

COLOR]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

To the OP, just fyi - this is *not* what it says in this link, I'll copy/paste what it says (this happens to be one of my favorite links on allergies, btw, so I'm very familiar w/ the content ): "We recommend testing for food allergy when the clinical signs have been present for several months, when the dog has a poor response to steroids, or when a very young dog itches without other apparent causes of allergy. "

^^^That is far different than "food allergy tied to poor response..." <--- to me, that can read as "food allergy IS tied to a poor response".

Again, because "a" dog or some dogs don't respond to a medication, it does not mean that it won't work for another dog. EVERY dog/case is different and unique.

The allergic response is partly an inflammatory response and steroids are not only an immunosuppressant, they are powerful anti-inflammatories, no matter the soure of the inflammation.

We recommend testing for food allergy when the clinical signs have been present for several months, when the dog has a poor response to steroids, or when a very young dog itches without other apparent causes of allergy. "

not sure how that is different than what i posted as it clearly states if a dog is not responding to steroids could be food allergy

I am aware it is anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressant as you stated below it is anti-inflammatory and i stated both steroids and atopica (cyclosporine) are immune suppressant drugs used for allergies. The steroids reduce inflammation in body but it also suppresses the immune system so the body does not react to the allergents coming into the body

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by dwerten

i was asking being on steroids and increasing doseage what are the cause for concern in relation to cushings? so if i increase dd steroids do i not need to be worried about her getting cushings ever?

I am always trying to learn as well and i know your expertise is cushings and this constantly comes up with me using steroids with dd.

Well first, I don't want anyone thinking I have "expertise" in Cushings...I only know some things about it bc Wylie has Atypical Cushings. I will say, that it is an incredibly complicated disease - more complicated than any I've run across (in nursing). Atypical is even more complicated (to me) than "Cushings".

I really don't want to take this off track any more than it already has gone. To answer very simply: (exogenous) use of steroids (long- or even short-term use, in some) can lead to Iatrogenic Cushings - which shows SIGNS and symptoms of a Cushingoid dog...the adrenals may even temporarily atrophy due to under-use bc they're not being asked to produce as much steroid (ie, cortisol). That said, Iatrogenic Cushings will often resolve once the medication is just discontinued, be then the adrenals take over again.

So yes, I.Cushings (and symptoms/signs) should be kept in mind and should be a concern -- but my real point was - it should not be just thought of as "CUSHINGS" - bc not only is that medically incorrect - but if given that incorrect diagnosis, that dog could then be prescribed a CHEMO drug to treat "Cushings" -- which it doesn't actually even have. Iatrogenic Cushings is completely different in both cause and treatment approach.

Do you see what I'm trying to get at here?

Moving on, if more info is needed about Cushings - we do need a different thread, please, bc that above ^^^ is just the tip of the iceberg, in terms of Cushings and all its derivatives/types.

[viOlaziOne]

Hi all .. I have a little update with this situation .. recently Molly has seemed a little more itchy than her usual itchy self so we took her to our regular VET as a last ditch effort to see if he will actually make a difference before going to the VET DERM .. Molly was due for rabies shot anyways so it was a multifunctional visit .. I should mention that I spoke with the VET DERM soon after starting this thread and she suggested one more visit with my regular VET to get a referal and to have all of my paperwork sent over to her office .. during THIS visit that we just left from, the vet gave her the rabies shot and finally did SOMETHING .. I mention the blood testing thing and he gave her a HESKA allergy test to rule out fungal allergies, pollen, etc .. I mentioned maybe a possibility of it being an allergy to our hardwood floor cleaner or the Lysol we use whenever Molly "misses" her little pee pad .. we get the test results back in 3 weeks but while we wait he gave us some z/d food in wet and dry to try and possibly rule out the food allergy chance .. the issue, I feel, is with my Mother .. she spoiled Molly with treats in the morning made of God only knows what and she also smokes near the dog which I've told her on many occassions NOT TO DO after smelling cigarette smoke on Molly's fur one day .. I am running out of options but I am really hoping that this blood test shows SOMETHING .. if it comes back with nothing the vet said he was going to refer us to the VET DERM to see what she says .. if the test hopefully comes back positive for some allergen we could maybe control it with some shots .. I will keep you all posted as new information comes about and I thank you all for the large about of love on here ..

just a side question .. do you think it COULD be the second hand smoke from cigarettes billowing down onto Molly that is making her go nuts ?? if so, would this HESKA test show that ?? and if anyone has any information on how effective this HESKA test is I would greately appreciate it because I just want her to be comfortable and happy .. thanks again everyone

[dwerten]

I have not heard of HESKA but went to dermatologist today for dd staph infection she has again and she mentioned VARL is her number one choice for allergy testing and the two i had done with vets biomedical and full spectrum lab she does not trust so honestly i would have had that done with the dermatologist as they know the more accurate labs.

How often are you doing rabies vaccine every 3 years? I hope not yearly as vaccines can attribute to allergy issues as well as they affect the immune system and it says on the vaccine for HEALTHY DOGS ONLY and a dog with allergies is not a healthy dog.

yes i think the smoke can attribute to it as well as lungs and breathing for dogs.

also we clean our hardwood and laminate floors with vinegar and water - it is safe and will not hurt the allergies like chemical floor cleaners

Personally i would have got the referral from vet and called it a day and went to dermatologist - our vet does not even deal with allergy issues now she immediately refers to dermatologist in our area as it is so complex. I found that interesting when i called yesterday they said she is referring all allergy dogs now to dermatologist - i think that is very smart on her part but she has a very busy practice so probably why where as a vet that is not as busy may try to take it one which is a mistake as it can be very complex depending on the dog.

also wanted to state many of the dogs on our allergy group have had great success with VARL lab and why when derm said it - it stuck with me unlike the other labs but i will call and find out what the other labs are