Four year old Yorkie won't stop itching and licking

[ladyjane]

I think the first thing is to get the pup off the food that is being fed now. Second, get to a vet.
Then, the vet can suggest the elimation diet...or testing...whatever.
Just my thoughts since this person is a bit overwhelmed now. I was NOT suggesting that food as an elimation diet! I was suggesting it since the person has been buying food that clearly was not too great ... and my suggestion was an easy one FOR NOW which is what she asked for.

[dwerten]

she needs a dermatologist since the two vets thus far have failed her for sure

[ladyjane]

I said that! So, in the latest thread, I said vet....I MEANT dermatologist VET...I thought that was understood.

[Ellie May]

OP, I'm sorry about your girl.

I'm breaking this down into section so it doesn't seem quite so overwhelming.

Testing:
Bloodwork, including thyroid testing, should have been done a long time ago. Two years out with no diagnosis AND no vet insisting on some type of bloodwork is pretty sad.
A skin scraping with cytology should have been one of the first or the first thing done. some things, including mites, are visable on cytology. Even if mites were not seen (hard to catch with skin scraping), some vets will treat for them anyway just in case (with ivermectin or selamectin).

Allergies:
I'm not a vet, so I can't diagnose; but it is my opinion that while there may (r may not) be some allergy involvement, there is something more going on. And it is also my opinion that steroids should have help more than what they did if this was purely allergy related (food or environmental) unless it was a very low dose. Atopica, while I highly doubt it will do much good, could have been given with antiemetics for the first week or two.

Food:
If food allergies are still a concern, an elimination diet will have to be done. As Ann said, chicken, turkey, beef, and lamb will need to be avoided. Also add goat and pork to the list as these are common ingredients in kibbles, so they are not novel to a large number of dogs. It may be best to go grain free during this time. Sweet potato may work well. However, I would still say there is more to this than an allergy (imo). Also, it looks like the vet put her on an rx diet to stop the formation of bladder stones. If other foods are given with an rx diet, it could make the rx diet less effective. In this case, a vet (preferably a derm or internist) needs to decide what is more important: an allergy elimination diet or a diet to stop stone formation. It is also possible that a diet exists or could be created to control both issues at once. For this, you will likely need to talk to a veterinary nutritionist. Sorting this all out is really not something that can wait. They are trained to be able to figure these types of things out. Some table foods, including ham, can be very harmful to dogs and cause some very serious health problems. Please be very careful about what snacks are given.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I really don't have anything to add to what everyone has said as they have covered it all!

I DO think you should go to a vet dermatologist. Poor baby needs some relief and it sounds like that has not happened with either of your vets.

I have allergy pups and know how frustrating it is, but seriously they should not look as bad as the pictures you have provided. She must be miserable.

Good luck to you! ... and welcome to YT

as stated above, but I still think a quick change of food is in order ... she had asked for that....

THEN take the time to work with the vet and work with finding the right food.

That was ALL I was saying. Not needing a critique of the food I give my pups and all of its ingredients. I have no reason to justify it. I know the health of my pups and know what works well for them...and I have many and have had many. I will bet I have less digestive problems than many.

I simply was trying to help with a quick change. I was not suggesting it forever...because I have long learned that people are so emotional about foods.

NOT trying to play nutritionist. I don't buy a lot of what people feed their pups anyway...to each his own. That is why I pretty much stay out of health and diet forum.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

OP, I'm sorry about your girl.

I'm breaking this down into section so it doesn't seem quite so overwhelming.

Testing:
Bloodwork, including thyroid testing, should have been done a long time ago. Two years out with no diagnosis AND no vet insisting on some type of bloodwork is pretty sad.
A skin scraping with cytology should have been one of the first or the first thing done. some things, including mites, are visable on cytology. Even if mites were not seen (hard to catch with skin scraping), some vets will treat for them anyway just in case (with ivermectin or selamectin).

Allergies:
I'm not a vet, so I can't diagnose; but it is my opinion that while there may (r may not) be some allergy involvement, there is something more going on. And it is also my opinion that steroids should have help more than what they did if this was purely allergy related (food or environmental) unless it was a very low dose. Atopica, while I highly doubt it will do much good, could have been given with antiemetics for the first week or two.

Food:
If food allergies are still a concern, an elimination diet will have to be done. As Ann said, chicken, turkey, beef, and lamb will need to be avoided. Also add goat and pork to the list as these are common ingredients in kibbles, so they are not novel to a large number of dogs. It may be best to go grain free during this time. Sweet potato may work well. However, I would still say there is more to this than an allergy (imo). Also, it looks like the vet put her on an rx diet to stop the formation of bladder stones. If other foods are given with an rx diet, it could make the rx diet less effective. In this case, a vet (preferably a derm or internist) needs to decide what is more important: an allergy elimination diet or a diet to stop stone formation. It is also possible that a diet exists or could be created to control both issues at once. For this, you will likely need to talk to a veterinary nutritionist. Sorting this all out is really not something that can wait. They are trained to be able to figure these types of things out. Some table foods, including ham, can be very harmful to dogs and cause some very serious health problems. Please be very careful about what snacks are given.

Very nicely done! Clear and easy to read...with sections and punctuation. Very easy to follow!

I really hope the op can get some relief for this pup soon!

[sferrini]

Originally Posted by dwerten

the info i posted is from our dermatologist and is a true elimination diet and i believe the food you posted has more ingredients than a novel protein and a novel carb - this is usually the first step after mite scrapings for skin issues as food allergy has to be eliminated first as well as flea allergy - this is the first thing the dermatologist usually does after ruling out mites but I would get to a dermatologist asap and start getting this little one better as sounds like vet did not have a clue about allergies and wasted alot of time and money not getting to the bottom of this sooner.

I totally agree, as I am going through all of this right now. Miracle gets pumpkin and vension, that's it. She had her second visit to the derm doc yesterday. She is done with the steroids but is still on simplacef and was given anouther round of antibiotics for the staph infection she had, this will be her last two weeks. However, we will have to see how it goes from here, as we found another flea on her. For whatever reason, she is the only one that has them and ONE keeps popping up every couple of months. I know the saying where there is one, there are more, however we NEVER find anymore, so this could just be a flea allergy (hoping it is that simple), she was given medicine that kills them in 15 mins., he called it birth control for fleas. One she will take for the month along with my other babies and the other one she will get one pill every other day. So as of right now we are concentrating on a flea allergy, and he did say I could feed her whatever I wanted but I'm going to stick with venison and pumpkin at least for a little while longer.

This is not a quick and cheap process as I am already in over $1,000, but I will do whatever I can to help my baby feel better.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

OP, I'm sorry about your girl.

I'm breaking this down into section so it doesn't seem quite so overwhelming.

Testing:
Bloodwork, including thyroid testing, should have been done a long time ago. Two years out with no diagnosis AND no vet insisting on some type of bloodwork is pretty sad.
A skin scraping with cytology should have been one of the first or the first thing done. some things, including mites, are visable on cytology. Even if mites were not seen (hard to catch with skin scraping), some vets will treat for them anyway just in case (with ivermectin or selamectin).

Allergies:
I'm not a vet, so I can't diagnose; but it is my opinion that while there may (r may not) be some allergy involvement, there is something more going on. And it is also my opinion that steroids should have help more than what they did if this was purely allergy related (food or environmental) unless it was a very low dose. Atopica, while I highly doubt it will do much good, could have been given with antiemetics for the first week or two.

Food:
If food allergies are still a concern, an elimination diet will have to be done. As Ann said, chicken, turkey, beef, and lamb will need to be avoided. Also add goat and pork to the list as these are common ingredients in kibbles, so they are not novel to a large number of dogs. It may be best to go grain free during this time. Sweet potato may work well. However, I would still say there is more to this than an allergy (imo). Also, it looks like the vet put her on an rx diet to stop the formation of bladder stones. If other foods are given with an rx diet, it could make the rx diet less effective. In this case, a vet (preferably a derm or internist) needs to decide what is more important: an allergy elimination diet or a diet to stop stone formation. It is also possible that a diet exists or could be created to control both issues at once. For this, you will likely need to talk to a veterinary nutritionist. Sorting this all out is really not something that can wait. They are trained to be able to figure these types of things out. Some table foods, including ham, can be very harmful to dogs and cause some very serious health problems. Please be very careful about what snacks are given.

food allergy cannot be treated by steroids or atopica those are strictly for environmental allergies not food that is how they determine if food or environmental is if steroids stop the itching usually not food related and why an elimination is the first step AFTER skin scrapings and ruling out hypothyroid.

Natural balance vegetarian is an appropriate diet for both allergies as well as stones so if stones are an issue you may want to do the same elimination diet we did with dee dee which was pinto beans and sweet potato instead of white potato as pinto beans are a protein and they are lower protein than any other protein

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by sferrini

I totally agree, as I am going through all of this right now. Miracle gets pumpkin and vension, that's it. She had her second visit to the derm doc yesterday. She is done with the steroids but is still on simplacef and was given anouther round of antibiotics for the staph infection she had, this will be her last two weeks. However, we will have to see how it goes from here, as we found another flea on her. For whatever reason, she is the only one that has them and ONE keeps popping up every couple of months. I know the saying where there is one, there are more, however we NEVER find anymore, so this could just be a flea allergy (hoping it is that simple), she was given medicine that kills them in 15 mins., he called it birth control for fleas. One she will take for the month along with my other babies and the other one she will get one pill every other day. So as of right now we are concentrating on a flea allergy, and he did say I could feed her whatever I wanted but I'm going to stick with venison and pumpkin at least for a little while longer.

This is not a quick and cheap process as I am already in over $1,000, but I will do whatever I can to help my baby feel better.

no it is not a quick process at all and sadly there is no real cure just keeping dog comfortable and eliminating as many things as you can to keep them comfortable and on as little drugs as possible.

The reason your dog has fleas and others do not is because fleas gravatate to dogs with poor immune systems and i saw it first hand with dd as they used revolution to rule out scabies when this all first started and i took her and my other two to a friends by the beach - got home and dex and demi had 3 or 4 fleas and dee dee was covered. I was furious called the mfg of revolution and said wth is going on she has flea protection my other two do not have hardly any and she is the only one with flea protection and they said it does not keep them off the dog only kills the cycle so i said we are DONE with flea protection then as the flea will still bite her and cause allergic reaction so why put a chemical on her already sensitive skin - joke no way. We do not have a big flea problem by us which is good as that whole incident confirmed to me what holistic vets have said is a dog with a poor immune system will get fleas where as dogs with a strong immune system rarely does.

The flea protection the vet gave your dog sounds like CAPSTAR.

So glad you are finally getting some answers with her

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

OP, I'm sorry about your girl.

I'm breaking this down into section so it doesn't seem quite so overwhelming.

Testing:
Bloodwork, including thyroid testing, should have been done a long time ago. Two years out with no diagnosis AND no vet insisting on some type of bloodwork is pretty sad.
A skin scraping with cytology should have been one of the first or the first thing done. some things, including mites, are visable on cytology. Even if mites were not seen (hard to catch with skin scraping), some vets will treat for them anyway just in case (with ivermectin or selamectin).

Allergies:
I'm not a vet, so I can't diagnose; but it is my opinion that while there may (r may not) be some allergy involvement, there is something more going on. And it is also my opinion that steroids should have help more than what they did if this was purely allergy related (food or environmental) unless it was a very low dose. Atopica, while I highly doubt it will do much good, could have been given with antiemetics for the first week or two.

Food:
If food allergies are still a concern, an elimination diet will have to be done. As Ann said, chicken, turkey, beef, and lamb will need to be avoided. Also add goat and pork to the list as these are common ingredients in kibbles, so they are not novel to a large number of dogs. It may be best to go grain free during this time. Sweet potato may work well. However, I would still say there is more to this than an allergy (imo). Also, it looks like the vet put her on an rx diet to stop the formation of bladder stones. If other foods are given with an rx diet, it could make the rx diet less effective. In this case, a vet (preferably a derm or internist) needs to decide what is more important: an allergy elimination diet or a diet to stop stone formation. It is also possible that a diet exists or could be created to control both issues at once. For this, you will likely need to talk to a veterinary nutritionist. Sorting this all out is really not something that can wait. They are trained to be able to figure these types of things out. Some table foods, including ham, can be very harmful to dogs and cause some very serious health problems. Please be very careful about what snacks are given.

the problem here is she had a vet that was treating the symptoms not getting to the bottom of the cause and throwing periodic steroids into the dog which is the worst thing you can do bc if you wean a dog off steroids or pull them off immediately the dog will get ten times worse as the body will react more when steroids stop as my dad had rosasea and came off steroids by doctor and his skin was 10xs worse after going off steroids at first then it calmed down but this same thing will happen to a dog on steroids coming off of it and on it all the time and why weaning is critical and figuring out what is going on is critical so the pictures look like a secondary bacteria infection from itching so the dog needs relief with steroids, antibiotics for that infection and then they need to do the food elimination diet as the diet this dog has been eating could very well be the first critical piece of the puzzle but the steroids are not going to stop this dog from itching if the food is the culprit which is why the dog keeps itching on steroids

[107barney]

We have been down the allergy road as well. Tons of money spent on unreliable food allergy testing and environmental allergy testing only gave us useless and unreliable information. When I took Daisy to a veterinary dermatologist, I started getting answers. Fortunately, our dog is able to stay on Neoral (atopica) and do very well without even having to go to maximum dose.

My suggestion is to heed the advice you are hearing - get to a dermatologist. He or she will recommend a diet and any medications that may be used. In our case, I spent years changing this protein or that carbohydrate and going nuts to be honest -- only to learn that food allergy testing in dogs is unreliable and basically useless. It's been a couple of years for us so maybe the testing has changed but I'd avoid doing anything more until you have an expert guiding the process.

Good luck!

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by 107barney

We have been down the allergy road as well. Tons of money spent on unreliable food allergy testing and environmental allergy testing only gave us useless and unreliable information. When I took Daisy to a veterinary dermatologist, I started getting answers. Fortunately, our dog is able to stay on Neoral (atopica) and do very well without even having to go to maximum dose.

My suggestion is to heed the advice you are hearing - get to a dermatologist. He or she will recommend a diet and any medications that may be used. In our case, I spent years changing this protein or that carbohydrate and going nuts to be honest -- only to learn that food allergy testing in dogs is unreliable and basically useless. It's been a couple of years for us so maybe the testing has changed but I'd avoid doing anything more until you have an expert guiding the process.

Good luck!

And, yes the testing for food allergies is still unreliable. My vet does not even recommend it. Only environmental. Food allergies are easy to find with an elimination diet anyway.

[dwerten]

The same reason Atopica and Steroids cannot stop food allergies is the same reason blood cannot determine food allergies on an allergy test and why an elimination diet is done to determine it as blood can only determine environmental allergies.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by 107barney

We have been down the allergy road as well. Tons of money spent on unreliable food allergy testing and environmental allergy testing only gave us useless and unreliable information. When I took Daisy to a veterinary dermatologist, I started getting answers. Fortunately, our dog is able to stay on Neoral (atopica) and do very well without even having to go to maximum dose.

My suggestion is to heed the advice you are hearing - get to a dermatologist. He or she will recommend a diet and any medications that may be used. In our case, I spent years changing this protein or that carbohydrate and going nuts to be honest -- only to learn that food allergy testing in dogs is unreliable and basically useless. It's been a couple of years for us so maybe the testing has changed but I'd avoid doing anything more until you have an expert guiding the process.

Good luck!

you are so lucky yours can tolerate the atopica my dd started throwing it up after a year and even that year we had to still give temarilp with it

Yep Blood cannot determine food allergies only elimination diet and 10% of allergies are food anyway HOWEVER a dog with allergies should always be on a minimal ingredient diet as to not over tax the system as allergents can build up in the body and trigger itching

[Ellie May]

An elimination diet instead of trying to maintain on steroids is, without a doubt, the best way to go if possible, but that doesn't mean steroids don't ever work in this case. Cyclosporine is just for environmental.

Food Allergies & Food Intolerance in Dogs
WSAVA 2001 - Update on Food Allergy in the Dog and Cat

Originally Posted by dwerten

food allergy cannot be treated by steroids or atopica those are strictly for environmental allergies not food that is how they determine if food or environmental is if steroids stop the itching usually not food related and why an elimination is the first step AFTER skin scrapings and ruling out hypothyroid.

Natural balance vegetarian is an appropriate diet for both allergies as well as stones so if stones are an issue you may want to do the same elimination diet we did with dee dee which was pinto beans and sweet potato instead of white potato as pinto beans are a protein and they are lower protein than any other protein