Four year old Yorkie won't stop itching and licking

[abinasmom]

my bean developed severe itching and scratching all of the sudden , it turned out to be the scented detergent and dryer sheets i washed and dryed her bedding in, clothes and towels.plus my bedding clothes etc... she was fine for 4 years and then all of the sudden she became allergic. have since switched everything over to non scented and green friendly. no problems since.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

An elimination diet instead of trying to maintain on steroids is, without a doubt, the best way to go if possible, but that doesn't mean steroids don't ever work in this case. Cyclosporine is just for environmental.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Steroids offer anti-inflammatory benefits - no matter the inflammation's / allergy's source (any allergy causes an inflammatory response); while steroids also suppress the immune system, they are powerful anti-inflammatory agents, for all types/sources of inflammation

* Atopica (cyclosporine), I agree, offers benefits just for enviro - as it is an immunosuppressant (and not an anti-inflamm.)

* "Testing for Food Allergies" refers to an elimination diet, only. For an elimination diet to be effective, it should not contain any previously fed ingredients.

* "Testing for Enviro/Seasonal Allergies" refers to blood testing/allergy testing - which may be worthwhile if the dog is young, and IF you plan on doing the hyposensitization shots (btw, a dog can be on Atopica before/during allergy testing, but *must* be off any steroids 2-6 wks, depending on steroid, before testing)

* Just to reiterate: 10-15% of allergies are due to food, the rest are due to enviro

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

An elimination diet instead of trying to maintain on steroids is, without a doubt, the best way to go if possible, but that doesn't mean steroids don't ever work in this case. Cyclosporine is just for environmental.

Food Allergies & Food Intolerance in Dogs
WSAVA 2001 - Update on Food Allergy in the Dog and Cat

Amazon.com: The Allergy Solution for Dogs:...
in this book written by dvm it states if a dog still itches while on steroids then food is the culprit as I agree the steroids will reduce the inflamation but it will not stop the allergent from food and why blood cannot determine food allergy same reason. This is how they determine many times it is food not environmental as they give the dog steroids and if they stop itching it is environmental if the dog does not stop itching it is food related.

both cyclosporine and steroids are immune suppressant drugs as they are using atopica in ibd dogs off label. The difference in the drugs is steroids affects the adrenals and atopica does not.

[dwerten]

here is some good info from another book i bought from this author he compiled info from dermatologists from all over

Skin and Allergy Problems in Dogs

[dwerten]

here is the book I have from ebay

Guide to Skin and Haircoat Problems in Dogs - eBay (item 380205514069 end time Mar-11-10 18:47:04 PST)

here is another one i have

Skin Diseases of Dogs and Cats: A Guide for Pet Owners - eBay (item 180445631320 end time Mar-14-10 16:55:50 PDT)

another one i have

Small Animal Dermatology Muller & Kirk's - eBay (item 190377353676 end time Mar-09-10 11:20:24 PST)

i have a passion for this topic since my dd has bad allergies I try to learn as much as i can

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by dwerten

Amazon.com: The Allergy Solution for Dogs: Natural and Conventional Therapies to Ease Discomfort and Enhance Your Dog's Quality of Life (The Natural Vet) (0086874526723): Shawn Messonnier: Books

in this book written by dvm it states if a dog still itches while on steroids then food is the culprit as I agree the steroids will reduce the inflamation but it will not stop the allergent from food and why blood cannot determine food allergy same reason. This is how they determine many times it is food not environmental as they give the dog steroids and if they stop itching it is environmental if the dog does not stop itching it is food related.

both cyclosporine and steroids are immune suppressant drugs as they are using atopica in ibd dogs off label. The difference in the drugs is steroids affects the adrenals and atopica does not.

It may be fine to simply change food for twelve weeks and see what happens, but in some cases, dogs are so itchy that it would be wrong to not give steroids concurrently. They can provide relief for a lot of dogs. No relief at all or just a little bit could mean food allergies, but major relief does not rule them out.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Steroids offer anti-inflammatory benefits - no matter the inflammation's / allergy's source (any allergy causes an inflammatory response); while steroids also suppress the immune system, they are powerful anti-inflammatory agents, for all types/sources of inflammation

* Atopica (cyclosporine), I agree, offers benefits just for enviro - as it is an immunosuppressant (and not an anti-inflamm.)

Two TOTALLY different types of drugs. Thank you for clarifying that!!

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by dwerten

in this book written by dvm it states if a dog still itches while on steroids then food is the culprit as I agree the steroids will reduce the inflamation but it will not stop the allergent from food and why blood cannot determine food allergy same reason. This is how they determine many times it is food not environmental as they give the dog steroids and if they stop itching it is environmental if the dog does not stop itching it is food related.

both cyclosporine and steroids are immune suppressant drugs as they are using atopica in ibd dogs off label. The difference in the drugs is steroids affects the adrenals and atopica does not.

I need to use numbers, bc I can get wordy .

1) The statement in red could really confuse people, medically. In my understanding, there really is NO "cure" for allergies - so using the phrase "stop the allergent" (as it relates to medications etc) might be something to re-consider. The only way to treat allergies is to eliminate the source (if food, for example) or minimize exposure, or treat symptoms (steroids, atopica, anti-histamines), or desensitize (through shots).

The allergy is still there - you can't "stop" it (per se). That said, just like an allergy can suddenly start in a body, in can also suddenly go away - this does not mean you "stopped" it, or cured it - it only means the immune system is no longer allergic to this particular element.

2) As for the statement in blue, I'll mention that the 3 Vet Dermatologists at the practice I use for my dogs would disagree w/ this statement.

3) In purple ...: the differences go far beyond this, in my opinion. While steroids are indeed synthesized in the adrenals, the actual *cells* upon which they have action (ie, "affects"), goes much beyond the adrenal glands. And, like I said earlier, steroids are very power anti-inflam agents, in addition to being immunosuppressants - which are two very different therapeutic uses .

Originally Posted by Ellie May

It may be fine to simply change food for twelve weeks and see what happens, but in some cases, dogs are so itchy that it would be wrong to not give steroids concurrently. They can provide relief for a lot of dogs. No relief at all or just a little bit could mean food allergies, but major relief does not rule them out.

This is what the Derms with whom I've worked would state...and this is also what I believe to be true based on my own readings. Of course, that doesn't mean it's correct - just stating my experiences here .

{My apologies to the OP -who hasn't even been back lately btw- if this thread seems to have turned in to a debate. Please take what you can from the thread, and know that no one here is a Vet Derm - we all are writing w/ the best intentions to help, from our own experiences. I hope you get in touch w/ your own Vet Derm, as they are usually just phenomenal }

[dwerten]

Both drugs atopica and steroids have their concerns neither is without risk as they are tying cyclosporine now to cancer in dogs and steroids affect the entire body but the adrenals leading to cushings are a big concern in long term use of steroids. Any time you take a drug you have a risk of other health issues but both of these drugs suppress the immune system.

why can blood not determine food allergy and only environmental?

I am aware there is no cure for allergies as I have stated many times you only are trying to keep the dog comfortable after almost $10,000 i would have found a cure for it i think as i tried it all and my dog still has issues and will for the rest of her life. All from inbreeding and vaccinations I believe.

Well i guess we will have to agree to disagree about the steroids and food allergy as i saw it in my dog she is on steroids and when she gets a food that she is allergic to the steroids do not stop the itching so seeing it with my own eyes I believe this to be true and it is written in the book allergy solution for dogs by a vet that specializes as well in allergies. I am also on his yahoo group.

in number 1) it will not stop the allergent from affecting the dog.

and yes the allergent can stop due to desensitization or sometimes get worse from desensitization and why i opted not to do those shots as it sometimes can make a dog worse. Also many dogs can eat a food for years and develop an allergent to it as well. Desensitization from local raw honey is another way to desensitize a dog or human to the local pollens in the area.

I think there is a lot of valuable information here for the op and we do not all have to agree as this subject is very complex and those of us that have dealt with it first hand for years will all tell you that it is not an easy fix at all it is trial and error and a life long struggle to minimize the drug aspect of it yet keep the dog comfortable.

[dwerten]

just to give you an example

DD was pretty managed allergy wise on temarilp every other day so after this whole metacam incident she was a mess vomitted white potato, vomitted sweet potato, vomitted yams so i ran out of options to pill her with so i tried natural balance fish and sweet potato and nb venison and sweet potato both having flaxseed in them well her eyes were rubbed raw so bad i had to put her in a cone, her itching level increased significantly she was a total mess so then I went with organic chicken no relief all the while she is on steroids suppose to stop food allergy ? So now i put her on cod for pilling and within one week the itching is much less i can keep cone off her as she is not rubbing her eyes etc. Now when she was pilled with white potato we did not have these issues as she has never rubbed her face to the point where she rubbed her eyes raw ever never has she had to wear a cone so seeing this first hand convinced me what i read in this book a few years ago. She has been on temarilp for 2 years now. It was getting so bad I called to increase her temarilp yet nothing was stopping this itching while on the allergent foods.

also if this dog is on a chicken diet and on steroids why are the steroids not working?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by dwerten

Both drugs atopica and steroids have their concerns neither is without risk as they are tying cyclosporine now to cancer in dogs and steroids affect the entire body but the adrenals leading to cushings are a big concern in long term use of steroids.

Again, I think this statement in red is so medically misleading ! My Wylie has Cushings - and this is an extremely complicated disease, and there is already so much misinformation out there. What you are talking about above is not just "Cushings" - rather, it is Iatrogenic Cushings (which is VERY specific) - a pet has symptoms of Cushings bc exogenous cortisone is being GIVEN, not bc the adrenals are producing it. Iatrogenic Cushings will often resolve once the steroid med can be stopped (if possible) for whatever reason it's being given in the first place.

Originally Posted by dwerten

Well i guess we will have to agree to disagree about the steroids and food allergy as i saw it in my dog she is on steroids and when she gets a food that she is allergic to the steroids do not stop the itching so seeing it with my own eyes I believe this to be true and it is written in the book allergy solution for dogs by a vet that specializes as well in allergies. I am also on his yahoo group.

Because this is how your 1 dog reacted, this does not mean it applies to the general population of dogs....that's what I'm trying to say, what I think others were trying to say, and this is what I've read in the research as well as what the Derms with whom I've consulted said. I think it's great you're sharing your experience about your dog, however, it appeared (to me anyway) that you were making a generalized statement about the way steroids worked. That's all...

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by dwerten

also if this dog is on a chicken diet and on steroids why are the steroids not working?

If Atopica works for 1 dog in the world, should it work for all dogs?
If a steroid works for 1 dog in the world for food allergies, or any allergy, for that matter - should it work for all dogs?



A medication will not work for your dog just bc it works for other dogs...but I think you know this, don't you ?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by dwerten

just to give you an example

DD was pretty managed allergy wise on temarilp every other day so after this whole metacam incident she was a mess vomitted white potato, vomitted sweet potato, vomitted yams so i ran out of options to pill her with so i tried natural balance fish and sweet potato and nb venison and sweet potato both having flaxseed in them well her eyes were rubbed raw so bad i had to put her in a cone, her itching level increased significantly she was a total mess so then I went with organic chicken no relief all the while she is on steroids suppose to stop food allergy ? So now i put her on cod for pilling and within one week the itching is much less i can keep cone off her as she is not rubbing her eyes etc. Now when she was pilled with white potato we did not have these issues as she has never rubbed her face to the point where she rubbed her eyes raw ever never has she had to wear a cone so seeing this first hand convinced me what i read in this book a few years ago. She has been on temarilp for 2 years now. It was getting so bad I called to increase her temarilp yet nothing was stopping this itching while on the allergent foods.

also if this dog is on a chicken diet and on steroids why are the steroids not working?

Steroids may not be working in this case because 1) they just aren't going to work for food allergies in this case, or 2) this dog doesn't have a food allergy at all. Maybe it's a fungal infection or mites or, or, or...


And I have an example from my own dog that proves that they can work for food allergies. Not all ddrugs affect all dogs the same. The same goes for food. I know yours do really well on HA. It was a huge waste of time for mine... as was Z/D Ultra...

[dwerten]

here is something else to think about why does a dog have to be off steroids to do skin testing for environmental allergies but not off steroids for a food elimination diet ?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by dwerten

here is something else to think about why does a dog have to be off steroids to do skin testing for environmental allergies but not off steroids for a food elimination diet ?

In the link that I put up from the World Small Animal Veterinary Association, it states that if steroids needs to be given concurrently with an elimination diet, the diet needs to be done two weeks longer than the steroids to assess...