I need help!

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by TLC

I also wanted to say this. I don't know if your Vet is 100% convinced of LS either. I say this bc he still wants you to see a Neurologist. LS babies see an Internal Medicine Specialist, so the he wants you to see a Neurologist bc he may still think this is neuro related. Also, LS babies are put on Metro as the antib. I have never seen an LS baby on clavamox. I think Clavamox is for infection??? So I think he is really covering all basis with, but it sounds that he is just not sure. And I really can't comment or give advice about LS or MVD, without knowing the BAT results. And as others stated, a BAT is not conclusive of a shunt, it only shows liver function, more testing needs to be done.

I really recommended taking his advice and seeing a Neurologist. At the speciality hospital, they have all sorts of specialist, so if the Neuro has to consult with an Internal Medicine Specialist, they are all available under one roof.

Best Wishes and please don't delay, something is very wrong with her.

I agree as clavamox is used usually in uti so that threw me off as well. And the fact that no denamarin recommended for liver support has me thinking they are not quite sure and very curious what those bats are as my gut is they are less than 100 and still neuro related - Since the neuro is 3-5hrs away that is tough so you may want to shedule a consult on the phone before driving all that way and have your vet send all the info and maybe you can email videos so if they feel mri and spinal tap are needed and not liver shunt related you can do all at once first visit.

Let's see what the bats are on monday unless vet is open today and go from there as she really does not seem to be throwing up, etc and she is eating fine all that stuff so seems to be more neurological as food plays a big role in ls dogs

[mly]

I'm planning on calling the vet Monday morning for the BAT numbers and perhaps a prescription for her meds. I can't believe kjc can get her meds for 473 mL = $30.00. I was def ripped off since 1 oz=$22 (enough for 4 days).

So if I was to get a prescription for Costco or something and I'm giving Bella 3cc, would I be giving her the same amount as that? Less or more?

Bella def doesn't do the head pressing or the twitching of the eyes. It's just the head tilt and the walking "sideways" but straight (if you know what I mean).

I'm planning on taking her to a specialist as soon as I call out on Monday and get a referral...probably not til the end of the this coming week since I have a OBGYN appt on the 4th.

[TLC]

Originally Posted by mly

I'm planning on calling the vet Monday morning for the BAT numbers and perhaps a prescription for her meds. I can't believe kjc can get her meds for 473 mL = $30.00. I was def ripped off since 1 oz=$22 (enough for 4 days).

So if I was to get a prescription for Costco or something and I'm giving Bella 3cc, would I be giving her the same amount as that? Less or more?

Bella def doesn't do the head pressing or the twitching of the eyes. It's just the head tilt and the walking "sideways" but straight (if you know what I mean).

I'm planning on taking her to a specialist as soon as I call out on Monday and get a referral...probably not til the end of the this coming week since I have a OBGYN appt on the 4th.

Start off giving the Lactulose as prescribe. She should be eatting a handfull of small meals spread out throughout the entire day and into night before bed. This is easy on her liver and other organs. Do not over feed her though. When taking the lactulose, she should be pooping at least 3 (or more) times a day, and it need to be like soft ice cream. If this is not happening on the prescribe dose, you need to either cut back or up it.

[TLC]

Originally Posted by dwerten

I agree as clavamox is used usually in uti so that threw me off as well. And the fact that no denamarin recommended for liver support has me thinking they are not quite sure and very curious what those bats are as my gut is they are less than 100 and still neuro related - Since the neuro is 3-5hrs away that is tough so you may want to shedule a consult on the phone before driving all that way and have your vet send all the info and maybe you can email videos so if they feel mri and spinal tap are needed and not liver shunt related you can do all at once first visit.

Let's see what the bats are on monday unless vet is open today and go from there as she really does not seem to be throwing up, etc and she is eating fine all that stuff so seems to be more neurological as food plays a big role in ls dogs

Yeah Roxy has been on Clavomox for staph infections, after her major teeth cleaning. My sisters Morkie is on it now for a nail/toe (licking it) infection. So that threw me off too

[mly]

Originally Posted by TLC

I also wanted to say this. I don't know if your Vet is 100% convinced of LS either. I say this bc he still wants you to see a Neurologist. LS babies see an Internal Medicine Specialist, so the he wants you to see a Neurologist bc he may still think this is neuro related. Also, LS babies are put on Metro as the antib. I have never seen an LS baby on clavamox. I think Clavamox is for infection??? So I think he is really covering all basis with, but it sounds that he is just not sure. And I really can't comment or give advice about LS or MVD, without knowing the BAT results. And as others stated, a BAT is not conclusive of a shunt, it only shows liver function, more testing needs to be done.

I really recommended taking his advice and seeing a Neurologist. At the speciality hospital, they have all sorts of specialist, so if the Neuro has to consult with an Internal Medicine Specialist, they are all available under one roof.

Best Wishes and please don't delay, something is very wrong with her.

I believe the vet said the clavamox was for the build up of bacteria because her liver wasn't passing the toxins through (I think).

The referral for the neurologist is to get an ultrasound and maybe xrays to see if it was because of a single blood vessel (which Bella can have surgery to tie it off) or if it was multiple little blood vessels (which we can't do anything about).

[YorkieMom6]

Just stopping by to see how Bella is doing. It looks like you are getting a lot of good advice. We will continue to think of you both and will check back for updates.

Huggs

[TLC]

Originally Posted by mly

I believe the vet said the clavamox was for the build up of bacteria because her liver wasn't passing the toxins through (I think).

The referral for the neurologist is to get an ultrasound and maybe xrays to see if it was because of a single blood vessel (which Bella can have surgery to tie it off) or if it was multiple little blood vessels (which we can't do anything about).

Yeah that's what the antib is for and then the lactulose binds to those toxins and expels them thru waste. Just never heard of the antib being Calvamox, usually it is Metro (can't spell the entire name ).

An ultrasound is only about 60% accurate and the person reading the u/s has to be really skilled. Roxy's u/s cost $400. She had a normal shaped liver, and normal size, no shunt was seen. However, they told me, that doesn't mean there isn't one, they just didn't see it. So to me, it was a waste of $400. Also, you can't see multiple little blood vessel (MVD) on a U/S - they can only really determine MVD with a complete liver biopsy.

The BATs result will tell us more. If they are really, really high (like wayyyyyyyyyy above 100), then I would probably skip the U/S and go right to Scintigraphy (again, spelling is not my best subject), as that is radio active dye put thru her system and that will show a shunt wayyyyyyyyyyy better than a U/S.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by TLC

Yeah that's what the antib is for and then the lactulose binds to those toxins and expels them thru waste. Just never heard of the antib being Calvamox, usually it is Metro (can't spell the entire name ).

An ultrasound is only about 60% accurate and the person reading the u/s has to be really skilled. Roxy's u/s cost $400. She had a normal shaped liver, and normal size, no shunt was seen. However, they told me, that doesn't mean there isn't one, they just didn't see it. So to me, it was a waste of $400. Also, you can't see multiple little blood vessel (MVD) on a U/S - they can only really determine MVD with a complete liver biopsy.

The BATs result will tell us more. If they are really, really high (like wayyyyyyyyyy above 100), then I would probably skip the U/S and go right to Scintigraphy (again, spelling is not my best subject), as that is radio active dye put thru her system and that will show a shunt wayyyyyyyyyyy better than a U/S.

I agree those bats will tell us what is going on - neurologist will not do ultrasound for LS it will be an internal medicine specialist as LS is more internal medicine but neurologists are familiar I am sure as there is encephalitis involved

here is some info on scintigraphy and I agree ultrasounds are not real accurate - The thing is it could be one shunt and it can ber repaired, mvd no repair just diet and if symptoms supplements and then acquired multiple shunts but those cannot be repaired either.

Portal Scintigraphy in Veterinary Medicine

If it is a shunt and needs to be repaired Dr Tobias is the Best at this and much cheaper than california

I agree meds can be more expensive depending on vet and their over head sadly My girl is on temarilp and a vet charged me $22 for 6 pills and another vet ordered me a bottle of 100 for $53 so there can be a huge difference from one vet to another

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by TLC

Yeah that's what the antib is for and then the lactulose binds to those toxins and expels them thru waste. Just never heard of the antib being Calvamox, usually it is Metro (can't spell the entire name ).

An ultrasound is only about 60% accurate and the person reading the u/s has to be really skilled. Roxy's u/s cost $400. She had a normal shaped liver, and normal size, no shunt was seen. However, they told me, that doesn't mean there isn't one, they just didn't see it. So to me, it was a waste of $400. Also, you can't see multiple little blood vessel (MVD) on a U/S - they can only really determine MVD with a complete liver biopsy.

The BATs result will tell us more. If they are really, really high (like wayyyyyyyyyy above 100), then I would probably skip the U/S and go right to Scintigraphy (again, spelling is not my best subject), as that is radio active dye put thru her system and that will show a shunt wayyyyyyyyyyy better than a U/S.

i have heard of amoxicillin and metronidazole being used only for liver issues but I guess antibiotics can do basically the same thing just in different families

and yes clavamox is used in dentistry and staph it is more of a mild antibiotic baytril being the big daddy

[mly]

I posted Bella's story on the yahoo groups and two people responded:

"It's neurological. Please get her on a low protein diet immediately and
seriously consider getting her evaluated by a specialist asap.
Listen to the wise ladies here and prepare yourself for a whole new experience
with your dog. It may even include surgery to save a life."


and...

"Hi if ur puppy has a shunt or mvd she does not have to display all of the
symptoms. What you described her bumping into corners and the look of being clumsy is one of the major symptoms of H E. She may very well have a neurological dis. However with the symptoms she is displaying and her elevated BAT are very good indications of a shunt. Of course I am not a vet I am providing u with info that I have learned from this forum and from my vet. Hope this helps"

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by mly

I posted Bella's story on the yahoo groups and two people responded:

"It's neurological. Please get her on a low protein diet immediately and
seriously consider getting her evaluated by a specialist asap.
Listen to the wise ladies here and prepare yourself for a whole new experience
with your dog. It may even include surgery to save a life."


and...

"Hi if ur puppy has a shunt or mvd she does not have to display all of the
symptoms. What you described her bumping into corners and the look of being clumsy is one of the major symptoms of H E. She may very well have a neurological dis. However with the symptoms she is displaying and her elevated BAT are very good indications of a shunt. Of course I am not a vet I am providing u with info that I have learned from this forum and from my vet. Hope this helps"

Ok good info get those bats those will help alot in knowing more keeping the prayers going

[red98vett]

awww ...what a little dollbaby - I could see what you mean about her tilting her head and hope you get some answers very soon - you must be so anxious - good luck with the specialist....

It was good to see her play and I loved the little circle dance she did...and am so glad she didn't fall over - I'd be crying if I saw that

you guys who are helping - that's so outstanding of you...

[mly]

Quick question...is hepatic encephalopathy the same thing as a liver shunt? or mvd?

They all sound so similar and I wasn't sure.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by mly

Quick question...is hepatic encephalopathy the same thing as a liver shunt? or mvd?

They all sound so similar and I wasn't sure.

yes they are tied together

Hepatic Encephalopathy in Dogs

[mly]

I also wanted to post these pictures I just took. Its been hard for me to hold Bella because she's off to one side and most of the time she'll be looking up like in the pictures. Is this another symptom of L.S?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...s/IMG_0442.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...s/IMG_0443.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...s/IMG_0444.jpg