Going to visit Cruiser tomorrow

[newyorkiepup]

For those of you who didn't read my posts a couple of weeks ago, we were told our 5- month old puppy Cruiser has a liver shunt. This was diagnosed by the vet after a bile acid test. AFter meeting with a surgeon, my husband and I decided that we could not put Cruiser though such a risky surgury so we made the really difficult decision to return him to our breeder. He went back last Monday. Since then, I have talked on the phone with the breeder 3 times for updates. She says he is doing great. She is giving him his lactulose and force feeding him baby food through a syringe. He has already gained weight and has plenty of energy. He is playing with the other puppies and eating some on his own too. She has not seen any behavior which would indicate a livershunt to her. Her plan is to keep fattening him up (in her estimation, he was at least a pound underweight) and then have him retested in a few months. I know it is a long shot, but we are just hoping and praying that she's right and the vet is wrong and that Cruiser will get better and can come home! I talked to her again last night and we are going to go visit him tomorrow night. I can't wait to see my little man. I hope he's happy to see us. I want some puppy kisses! We're going to take him some treats and his leash so we can take him on a walk (he loves to walk on his leash - he's so good at it!)

We also want to talk to the breeder about getting another puppy. She had told us we could get our money back or another puppy. We told her we would get another puppy and we want to talk to her about possibly getting one in September. Then if we do get Cruiser back (which we don't want to do for several months until we can be assured he's better - we cannot go through the heartbreak this caused us again!), then we'll just have 2 puppies!

Anyway, I'll post a picture after we visit him. She shaved him down because he had so many mats in his paws (he'd been so sick I didn't want to take away the little energy he had by brushing him) so he's going to look different!!!

[Jeri Cunningham]

I hope Cruiser turns out to be fine. What a great breeder to work at getting the puppy healthy again.

[TLC]

What was the BAT pre and post #'s ?

Did you do any other testing? Did you know that the BAT can't be an acurate measure of LS under 6 months Did he have any symptoms? Just trying to get a better understanding....

My Roxy has MVD - she is doing great with a special diet and supplements (she is 4 y/o)

[newyorkiepup]

The bile acid test was all that was done. No other tests were suggested other than an ultrasound. The vet did tell us that the test isn't 100% conclusive of a liver shunt but said that that was her conclusion based on the circumstances: 1) his age, 2) that he's a yorkie, 3) that he hasn't been eating well, 4) that he is so thin, 5) that he is often lethargic, 6) that he had a couple of hypoglycemic episodes and a few seizures, and the other values (see below)

Here are the results (just the values that were either low or high):

AST(GOT) is high at 315 when the normal range is 13-81
Bilirubin is low at less than 0.1 when the normal range is 0.1-0.5
Total protein is low at 3.3 when the normal range is 5.0-8.3
Albumin is low at 1.5 when the normal range is 2.6-4.0
Glucose is low at 44 when the normal range is 74-145
Urea N is low at 5 when the normal range is 8-30
Bile Acid was high at 201.1 the first time and 447.6 the second time when the normal range is 0.0-12.0

[TLC]

Originally Posted by newyorkiepup

I don't have the numbers in front of me. The bile acid test was all that was done. No other tests were suggested other than an ultrasound. The vet did tell us that the test isn't 100% conclusive of a liver shunt but said that that was her conclusion based on the circumstances: 1) his age, 2) that he's a yorkie, 3) that he hasn't been eating well, 4) that he is so thin, 5) that he is often lethargic, 6) that he had a couple of hypoglycemic episodes and a few seizures.

hmmm...I would be really curious as to what the numbers are B/c honestly, I have been dealing with LS and MVD for over 1.5 years now, I get support and great information from people here and on other Liver Shunt groups that are going through the same thing. I also live in NY and we have very experienced Vet and Specialists here, and not one of them would ever 'bank' on LS based on 1 BAT and the symptoms your described, as he could have MVD. I have read your past posts, and I too would not put him through surgery, but I say that b/c more 'accurate' tests would need to be done first to truly indicate LS before I opened up any dog. Even with MVD, the reason he had those symptoms could very well be the food he was eating...ceasers and deli meat are the worst things to feed, so that alone could cause those symptoms in an MVD dog just as it would an LS dog.

I truly hope he is being taken care of by the breeder

Ok, now I just re-read your post of the BAT - yes they are very high. Still, without some other tests you can't be 100% sure, as there is a member here on YT that has an MVD dog that had a post # of 300.

Keep us posted...

[newyorkiepup]

What is MVD? Is that the liver shunting that is all throughout the liver? The vet mentioned 3 kinds of shunting: 1) single shunt outside the liver which is the most common and easiest to treat surgically 2) single shunt inside the liver which is more difficult to treat surgically but can be done or 3) multiple shunting at a microscopic level that is not operable.

[newyorkiepup]

One more thing I feel I have to mention is that multiple times on this board people have told me that what we were feeding Cruiser (deli meat, braunschweiger, little caesar's, the a/d food) was the WORST thing we could give him. I understand that those were not foods a dog should be eating regularly. But what people seem to not be understanding is that Cruiser simply WOULD NOT EAT! He wouldn't eat the food that was good for him. I tried so many things to get him to eat and he wouldn't so we resorted to things that he would eat so he didn't starve to death. He had to eat something! That is what the vet told us too. We have to get him to eat - whatever he'll eat - then worry about switching him to the right things later. You could feel all his bones. Because of how skinny he was, that is why our breeder thinks that the test results could have been thrown out of whack. She wants to get his appetite up, get some meat on his bones, and then have him retested.

[TLC]

Originally Posted by newyorkiepup

What is MVD? Is that the liver shunting that is all throughout the liver? The vet mentioned 3 kinds of shunting: 1) single shunt outside the liver which is the most common and easiest to treat surgically 2) single shunt inside the liver which is more difficult to treat surgically but can be done or 3) multiple shunting at a microscopic level that is not operable.

Yes. MVD is small shunts throughout the liver and can not be operated on. A special low, but quality protein diet and supplements to aid the liver is required, probably for life, but sticking to 'this' routine, can ensure a long normal life, as there are soooooooooo many Yorkies out there that MVD, my Roxy is one of them.

A single shunt 'outside' the liver is repairable and the success rate done by Dr. Tobias at U of Tenn, is UNBELIEVABLE - and pretty inexpensive - that would be my choice...if I ever had to go that route, or Cornell Univ. (Dr. Center)

And then there's the single shunt inside the liver, I am not sure if that can be repaired or not, but again, the special diet, supplements and meds, do prolong life.

LS and MVD - are NOT a death sentence. The key is doing the correct necessary tests to find out what you are dealing with and then find a very good experienced Vet / Specialist to put you on the right track

[TLC]

Originally Posted by newyorkiepup

One more thing I feel I have to mention is that multiple times on this board people have told me that what we were feeding Cruiser (deli meat, braunschweiger, little caesar's, the a/d food) was the WORST thing we could give him. I understand that those were not foods a dog should be eating regularly. But what people seem to not be understanding is that Cruiser simply WOULD NOT EAT! He wouldn't eat the food that was good for him. I tried so many things to get him to eat and he wouldn't so we resorted to things that he would eat so he didn't starve to death. He had to eat something! That is what the vet told us too. We have to get him to eat - whatever he'll eat - then worry about switching him to the right things later. You could feel all his bones. Because of how skinny he was, that is why our breeder thinks that the test results could have been thrown out of whack. She wants to get his appetite up, get some meat on his bones, and then have him retested.

I understand, but given the chance that he has LS or MVD, those particular foods only make it worse. There are 'other' choices that I am sure he would eat that would not only be safe for his organs to handle, but also to 'fatten' him up.

Fruits and Veggies are really good, mashed potatoes and sweet potatoes are really good too! Pasta is also ok. A small amount of low fat cottage cheese is ok. A small amount of eggs are ok.

LS and MVD dogs NEED protein - there's no way around it, but the 'kind' of protein is the key. Meat is the wrong protein, as it is too hard for the liver to handle the purines that the meat has, that means those toxins the liver can't filter properly and those toxins are now allowed to enter the blood and go to the brain and heart - bad, bad, bad - we don't want that, so we choose a different kind of protein that is low in purines, so those toxins are low. The lactulose is great b/c that helps to get rid of more toxins by making them poop - YAY

Hopefully I have explained things a little better - I know this is so much to take in, but once you sort through and start to make sense of it, the right path and plan is easy to deal with

[TLC]

The BAT could have been thrown off for a couple of reasons. His vaccines were given pretty close, right? Also he was neutered so he was on pain meds, etc. If heartworm or frontline were given too close to the blood draw than yes, and also his young age.

BUT - The BAT #s that you posted were very high.
Bile Acid was high at 201.1 the first time and 447.6 the second time when the normal range is 0.0-12.0

So, if this were me. I would continue with the lactulose and metrodolize (sp?) and I would get him to eat a low but quality food. I would retest BAT soon so I could compare and move onto more testing if need be, etc.

[newyorkiepup]

Yes, his rabies vaccine was given July 15, his neuter was done July 24, and his heartworm pill was given Aug 1. He had his major episode on Aug 2/3 and the bile acid test was done on Aug 4.

He's not with us now so what is being done in terms of medicine, feeding, and testing, is not really in my hands. But we are staying in close contact with the breeder and have confidence that she is doing what is right. She is giving 1 cc of lactulose 2 or 3 times a day but she has stopped giving him the pill which I think was metrodolize. She is feeding him baby food with a syringe everyday but I don't know how many times a day. She said he is eating dry food now too. She does intend to have him retested but I don't know what tests she plans to have done.

[TLC]

Ahhh...I hope she does the right thing.
He should absolutly be re-tested ASAP. As the results and the protocol is critical right now.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by newyorkiepup

One more thing I feel I have to mention is that multiple times on this board people have told me that what we were feeding Cruiser (deli meat, braunschweiger, little caesar's, the a/d food) was the WORST thing we could give him. I understand that those were not foods a dog should be eating regularly. But what people seem to not be understanding is that Cruiser simply WOULD NOT EAT! He wouldn't eat the food that was good for him. I tried so many things to get him to eat and he wouldn't so we resorted to things that he would eat so he didn't starve to death. He had to eat something! That is what the vet told us too. We have to get him to eat - whatever he'll eat - then worry about switching him to the right things later. You could feel all his bones. Because of how skinny he was, that is why our breeder thinks that the test results could have been thrown out of whack. She wants to get his appetite up, get some meat on his bones, and then have him retested.

newyorkiepup, I am so sorry if I upset you when I said that a/d was the worst food you could feed. I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by that..I didn't mean that it was a horrible choice because of quality...Many, many people with liver compromised dogs have their babies on prescription Hill's diets (L/D), so I'm not against that.

What I was trying to explain is that the reason your dog wasn't eating those foods you mentioned regularly and becoming picky was DUE to the liver problems. Those foods (a/d) are high in Meat protein which are hard on the liver and produces ammonia in the body which enters the bloodstream which is equivalent to having poison/toxin in the blood and makes them feel very, very sick. They attribute this sick feeling to the food...That's why they become picky.

Given the right 'kind' of food, they are more likely to eat b/c it doesn't make them feel sick. For example, L/D or RC Hepatic LS 14 or veg/dairy protein...

I'm glad you're getting to visit your baby Cruiser!! That's wonderful I'm sure he'll be very happy to see you. Good luck!

[newyorkiepup]

Cruiser was so happy to see us! He definitely remembered us. He ran up to us and wagged his tail and he's never given me so many kisses before! He has gained weight because he's more solid than he was. You can't feel all his little bones anymore. But he was totally shaved down! So he looked like a totally different dog. We didn't even recognize him at first. We took his favorite stuffed animal and he was very happy to play with it and we took his leash and took him on a little walk. He was excited to go for a walk. He is doing really great! We are still just hoping for the best. I'm going to see him again on Sept 2. I can't wait!

[Yorkieluv]

Awww It sounds like he was ecstatic to see you guys again!