YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community


Welcome to the YorkieTalk.com Forums Community - the community for Yorkshire Terriers.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. You will be able to chat with over 35,000 YorkieTalk members, read over 2,000,000 posted discussions, and view more than 15,000 Yorkie photos in the YorkieTalk Photo Gallery after you register. We would love to have you as a member!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please click here to contact us.

Go Back   YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community > YorkieTalk > Sick & Injured / Emergencies Talk
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-21-2008, 12:36 PM   #1
Senior Yorkie Talker
 
newyorkiepup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 77
Default Going to visit Cruiser tomorrow

For those of you who didn't read my posts a couple of weeks ago, we were told our 5- month old puppy Cruiser has a liver shunt. This was diagnosed by the vet after a bile acid test. AFter meeting with a surgeon, my husband and I decided that we could not put Cruiser though such a risky surgury so we made the really difficult decision to return him to our breeder. He went back last Monday. Since then, I have talked on the phone with the breeder 3 times for updates. She says he is doing great. She is giving him his lactulose and force feeding him baby food through a syringe. He has already gained weight and has plenty of energy. He is playing with the other puppies and eating some on his own too. She has not seen any behavior which would indicate a livershunt to her. Her plan is to keep fattening him up (in her estimation, he was at least a pound underweight) and then have him retested in a few months. I know it is a long shot, but we are just hoping and praying that she's right and the vet is wrong and that Cruiser will get better and can come home! I talked to her again last night and we are going to go visit him tomorrow night. I can't wait to see my little man. I hope he's happy to see us. I want some puppy kisses! We're going to take him some treats and his leash so we can take him on a walk (he loves to walk on his leash - he's so good at it!)

We also want to talk to the breeder about getting another puppy. She had told us we could get our money back or another puppy. We told her we would get another puppy and we want to talk to her about possibly getting one in September. Then if we do get Cruiser back (which we don't want to do for several months until we can be assured he's better - we cannot go through the heartbreak this caused us again!), then we'll just have 2 puppies!

Anyway, I'll post a picture after we visit him. She shaved him down because he had so many mats in his paws (he'd been so sick I didn't want to take away the little energy he had by brushing him) so he's going to look different!!!
newyorkiepup is offline   Reply With Quote
Welcome Guest!
Not Registered?

Join today and remove this ad!

Old 08-22-2008, 08:44 AM   #2
Donating YT 1000 Club Member
 
Jeri Cunningham's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Hercules,CA
Posts: 2,057
Blog Entries: 1
Default

I hope Cruiser turns out to be fine. What a great breeder to work at getting the puppy healthy again.
__________________
Mandy & Krissy & Teddy & Chelsey & Kayla
Non-Yorkie: Rusty & Biewers: Darla & Spanky
The Little Rascals
Jeri Cunningham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 08:53 AM   #3
TLC
Slave to My Rug-Rats
Donating Member
 
TLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Long Island
Posts: 7,247
Default

What was the BAT pre and post #'s ?

Did you do any other testing? Did you know that the BAT can't be an acurate measure of LS under 6 months Did he have any symptoms? Just trying to get a better understanding....

My Roxy has MVD - she is doing great with a special diet and supplements (she is 4 y/o)
__________________
Adopt Donate Foster
www.yorkie911rescue.com
TLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:07 AM   #4
Senior Yorkie Talker
 
newyorkiepup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 77
Default

The bile acid test was all that was done. No other tests were suggested other than an ultrasound. The vet did tell us that the test isn't 100% conclusive of a liver shunt but said that that was her conclusion based on the circumstances: 1) his age, 2) that he's a yorkie, 3) that he hasn't been eating well, 4) that he is so thin, 5) that he is often lethargic, 6) that he had a couple of hypoglycemic episodes and a few seizures, and the other values (see below)

Here are the results (just the values that were either low or high):

AST(GOT) is high at 315 when the normal range is 13-81
Bilirubin is low at less than 0.1 when the normal range is 0.1-0.5
Total protein is low at 3.3 when the normal range is 5.0-8.3
Albumin is low at 1.5 when the normal range is 2.6-4.0
Glucose is low at 44 when the normal range is 74-145
Urea N is low at 5 when the normal range is 8-30
Bile Acid was high at 201.1 the first time and 447.6 the second time when the normal range is 0.0-12.0

Last edited by newyorkiepup; 08-22-2008 at 09:12 AM.
newyorkiepup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:16 AM   #5
TLC
Slave to My Rug-Rats
Donating Member
 
TLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Long Island
Posts: 7,247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkiepup View Post
I don't have the numbers in front of me. The bile acid test was all that was done. No other tests were suggested other than an ultrasound. The vet did tell us that the test isn't 100% conclusive of a liver shunt but said that that was her conclusion based on the circumstances: 1) his age, 2) that he's a yorkie, 3) that he hasn't been eating well, 4) that he is so thin, 5) that he is often lethargic, 6) that he had a couple of hypoglycemic episodes and a few seizures.
hmmm...I would be really curious as to what the numbers are B/c honestly, I have been dealing with LS and MVD for over 1.5 years now, I get support and great information from people here and on other Liver Shunt groups that are going through the same thing. I also live in NY and we have very experienced Vet and Specialists here, and not one of them would ever 'bank' on LS based on 1 BAT and the symptoms your described, as he could have MVD. I have read your past posts, and I too would not put him through surgery, but I say that b/c more 'accurate' tests would need to be done first to truly indicate LS before I opened up any dog. Even with MVD, the reason he had those symptoms could very well be the food he was eating...ceasers and deli meat are the worst things to feed, so that alone could cause those symptoms in an MVD dog just as it would an LS dog.

I truly hope he is being taken care of by the breeder

Ok, now I just re-read your post of the BAT - yes they are very high. Still, without some other tests you can't be 100% sure, as there is a member here on YT that has an MVD dog that had a post # of 300.

Keep us posted...
__________________
Adopt Donate Foster
www.yorkie911rescue.com

Last edited by TLC; 08-22-2008 at 09:19 AM.
TLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:32 AM   #6
Senior Yorkie Talker
 
newyorkiepup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 77
Default

What is MVD? Is that the liver shunting that is all throughout the liver? The vet mentioned 3 kinds of shunting: 1) single shunt outside the liver which is the most common and easiest to treat surgically 2) single shunt inside the liver which is more difficult to treat surgically but can be done or 3) multiple shunting at a microscopic level that is not operable.
newyorkiepup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:37 AM   #7
Senior Yorkie Talker
 
newyorkiepup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 77
Default

One more thing I feel I have to mention is that multiple times on this board people have told me that what we were feeding Cruiser (deli meat, braunschweiger, little caesar's, the a/d food) was the WORST thing we could give him. I understand that those were not foods a dog should be eating regularly. But what people seem to not be understanding is that Cruiser simply WOULD NOT EAT! He wouldn't eat the food that was good for him. I tried so many things to get him to eat and he wouldn't so we resorted to things that he would eat so he didn't starve to death. He had to eat something! That is what the vet told us too. We have to get him to eat - whatever he'll eat - then worry about switching him to the right things later. You could feel all his bones. Because of how skinny he was, that is why our breeder thinks that the test results could have been thrown out of whack. She wants to get his appetite up, get some meat on his bones, and then have him retested.
newyorkiepup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:39 AM   #8
TLC
Slave to My Rug-Rats
Donating Member
 
TLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Long Island
Posts: 7,247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkiepup View Post
What is MVD? Is that the liver shunting that is all throughout the liver? The vet mentioned 3 kinds of shunting: 1) single shunt outside the liver which is the most common and easiest to treat surgically 2) single shunt inside the liver which is more difficult to treat surgically but can be done or 3) multiple shunting at a microscopic level that is not operable.
Yes. MVD is small shunts throughout the liver and can not be operated on. A special low, but quality protein diet and supplements to aid the liver is required, probably for life, but sticking to 'this' routine, can ensure a long normal life, as there are soooooooooo many Yorkies out there that MVD, my Roxy is one of them.

A single shunt 'outside' the liver is repairable and the success rate done by Dr. Tobias at U of Tenn, is UNBELIEVABLE - and pretty inexpensive - that would be my choice...if I ever had to go that route, or Cornell Univ. (Dr. Center)

And then there's the single shunt inside the liver, I am not sure if that can be repaired or not, but again, the special diet, supplements and meds, do prolong life.

LS and MVD - are NOT a death sentence. The key is doing the correct necessary tests to find out what you are dealing with and then find a very good experienced Vet / Specialist to put you on the right track
__________________
Adopt Donate Foster
www.yorkie911rescue.com
TLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:46 AM   #9
TLC
Slave to My Rug-Rats
Donating Member
 
TLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Long Island
Posts: 7,247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkiepup View Post
One more thing I feel I have to mention is that multiple times on this board people have told me that what we were feeding Cruiser (deli meat, braunschweiger, little caesar's, the a/d food) was the WORST thing we could give him. I understand that those were not foods a dog should be eating regularly. But what people seem to not be understanding is that Cruiser simply WOULD NOT EAT! He wouldn't eat the food that was good for him. I tried so many things to get him to eat and he wouldn't so we resorted to things that he would eat so he didn't starve to death. He had to eat something! That is what the vet told us too. We have to get him to eat - whatever he'll eat - then worry about switching him to the right things later. You could feel all his bones. Because of how skinny he was, that is why our breeder thinks that the test results could have been thrown out of whack. She wants to get his appetite up, get some meat on his bones, and then have him retested.
I understand, but given the chance that he has LS or MVD, those particular foods only make it worse. There are 'other' choices that I am sure he would eat that would not only be safe for his organs to handle, but also to 'fatten' him up.

Fruits and Veggies are really good, mashed potatoes and sweet potatoes are really good too! Pasta is also ok. A small amount of low fat cottage cheese is ok. A small amount of eggs are ok.

LS and MVD dogs NEED protein - there's no way around it, but the 'kind' of protein is the key. Meat is the wrong protein, as it is too hard for the liver to handle the purines that the meat has, that means those toxins the liver can't filter properly and those toxins are now allowed to enter the blood and go to the brain and heart - bad, bad, bad - we don't want that, so we choose a different kind of protein that is low in purines, so those toxins are low. The lactulose is great b/c that helps to get rid of more toxins by making them poop - YAY

Hopefully I have explained things a little better - I know this is so much to take in, but once you sort through and start to make sense of it, the right path and plan is easy to deal with
__________________
Adopt Donate Foster
www.yorkie911rescue.com
TLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:57 AM   #10
TLC
Slave to My Rug-Rats
Donating Member
 
TLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Long Island
Posts: 7,247
Default

The BAT could have been thrown off for a couple of reasons. His vaccines were given pretty close, right? Also he was neutered so he was on pain meds, etc. If heartworm or frontline were given too close to the blood draw than yes, and also his young age.

BUT - The BAT #s that you posted were very high.
Bile Acid was high at 201.1 the first time and 447.6 the second time when the normal range is 0.0-12.0

So, if this were me. I would continue with the lactulose and metrodolize (sp?) and I would get him to eat a low but quality food. I would retest BAT soon so I could compare and move onto more testing if need be, etc.
__________________
Adopt Donate Foster
www.yorkie911rescue.com
TLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 10:17 AM   #11
Senior Yorkie Talker
 
newyorkiepup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 77
Default

Yes, his rabies vaccine was given July 15, his neuter was done July 24, and his heartworm pill was given Aug 1. He had his major episode on Aug 2/3 and the bile acid test was done on Aug 4.

He's not with us now so what is being done in terms of medicine, feeding, and testing, is not really in my hands. But we are staying in close contact with the breeder and have confidence that she is doing what is right. She is giving 1 cc of lactulose 2 or 3 times a day but she has stopped giving him the pill which I think was metrodolize. She is feeding him baby food with a syringe everyday but I don't know how many times a day. She said he is eating dry food now too. She does intend to have him retested but I don't know what tests she plans to have done.
newyorkiepup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 10:24 AM   #12
TLC
Slave to My Rug-Rats
Donating Member
 
TLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Long Island
Posts: 7,247
Default

Ahhh...I hope she does the right thing.
He should absolutly be re-tested ASAP. As the results and the protocol is critical right now.
__________________
Adopt Donate Foster
www.yorkie911rescue.com
TLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 10:24 AM   #13
Donating YT 3000 Club Member
 
Yorkieluv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 7,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkiepup View Post
One more thing I feel I have to mention is that multiple times on this board people have told me that what we were feeding Cruiser (deli meat, braunschweiger, little caesar's, the a/d food) was the WORST thing we could give him. I understand that those were not foods a dog should be eating regularly. But what people seem to not be understanding is that Cruiser simply WOULD NOT EAT! He wouldn't eat the food that was good for him. I tried so many things to get him to eat and he wouldn't so we resorted to things that he would eat so he didn't starve to death. He had to eat something! That is what the vet told us too. We have to get him to eat - whatever he'll eat - then worry about switching him to the right things later. You could feel all his bones. Because of how skinny he was, that is why our breeder thinks that the test results could have been thrown out of whack. She wants to get his appetite up, get some meat on his bones, and then have him retested.
newyorkiepup, I am so sorry if I upset you when I said that a/d was the worst food you could feed. I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by that..I didn't mean that it was a horrible choice because of quality...Many, many people with liver compromised dogs have their babies on prescription Hill's diets (L/D), so I'm not against that.

What I was trying to explain is that the reason your dog wasn't eating those foods you mentioned regularly and becoming picky was DUE to the liver problems. Those foods (a/d) are high in Meat protein which are hard on the liver and produces ammonia in the body which enters the bloodstream which is equivalent to having poison/toxin in the blood and makes them feel very, very sick. They attribute this sick feeling to the food...That's why they become picky.

Given the right 'kind' of food, they are more likely to eat b/c it doesn't make them feel sick. For example, L/D or RC Hepatic LS 14 or veg/dairy protein...

I'm glad you're getting to visit your baby Cruiser!! That's wonderful I'm sure he'll be very happy to see you. Good luck!
__________________
Miko 's his Mommy

Last edited by Yorkieluv; 08-22-2008 at 10:26 AM.
Yorkieluv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 05:36 PM   #14
Senior Yorkie Talker
 
newyorkiepup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 77
Default

Cruiser was so happy to see us! He definitely remembered us. He ran up to us and wagged his tail and he's never given me so many kisses before! He has gained weight because he's more solid than he was. You can't feel all his little bones anymore. But he was totally shaved down! So he looked like a totally different dog. We didn't even recognize him at first. We took his favorite stuffed animal and he was very happy to play with it and we took his leash and took him on a little walk. He was excited to go for a walk. He is doing really great! We are still just hoping for the best. I'm going to see him again on Sept 2. I can't wait!
newyorkiepup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 05:45 PM   #15
Donating YT 3000 Club Member
 
Yorkieluv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 7,178
Default

Awww It sounds like he was ecstatic to see you guys again!
__________________
Miko 's his Mommy
Yorkieluv is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




Google
 

SHOP NOW: Amazon :: eBay :: Buy.com :: Newegg :: PetStore :: Petco :: PetSmart


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2003 - 2018 YorkieTalk.com
Privacy Policy - Terms of Use

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167